![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 102. Go back in thread:
Posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 11:16:21
In reply to Re: toxic crap » violette, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2010, at 10:15:25
:(
Wish we could 'block you' from reading scientific journal articles about a drug's adverse effects...
(((Lindadge))))
Posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 13:59:00
In reply to Re: toxic crap » violette, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2010, at 10:15:25
Linkadge, could you do something like start a new thread "Linkadge's Positive Medication Trial Thread" or something...and everytime you get the urge to 'check' scientific research on a particular drug--you could come here instead and ask a question about that drug to replace the resaarch urge...
Meanwhile, the rest of the med board, in response to each time you get the urge, could submit a post of something positive about the drug, like a quote from a research article, or another's positive experience with that same drug?
At least till you stay on something that works....and when you might be feeling well again, for say a few weeks, maybe feeling better will negative the effects of future adverse research findings?
Posted by inanimate peanut on July 23, 2010, at 14:15:49
In reply to toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 22, 2010, at 20:15:37
"From the LD50 values, it appears that the concentrations of nortriptyline and chlorpromazine which produced barrier changes were in the toxic range"
so, don't take toxic doses for nortriptyline. Check. I wasn't planning on taking toxic doses anyway.
Posted by SLS on July 23, 2010, at 14:32:17
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by morgan miller on July 23, 2010, at 11:05:21
> Now you've got me scared away from trying it : )
I'm glad you are smiling.
- Scott
Posted by TenMan on July 23, 2010, at 14:52:50
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by SLS on July 23, 2010, at 14:32:17
Personally, I would be more concerned about the toxicity lifelong chronic depression can have on quality of life.
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2010, at 15:58:41
In reply to Re: toxic crap » linkadge, posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 13:59:00
Thats part of who I am though. I need to know. Thats the only way I can ever self actualize. For me, this is not about feeling a little improvement. This is about getting well. Part of feeling *well* will inevitably involve beleving that the path I am on is not distructive to my mind or body.
When I find my cure, its going to be simple, effective and safe. There will be no tradoff. No exhaustive consideration of whether I can really tollerate feeling wonked out for the rest of my life.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2010, at 16:12:44
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by TenMan on July 23, 2010, at 14:52:50
I don't have lifelong chronic depression. I probably have either bipolar disorder or recurrent brief depression. I can go weeks at a time feeling ok, only to lapse for a few weeks.
If a drug gets me well, I just end up saying "wait a minute, I felt normal like this 3 weeks ago, and I wasn't taking anything. Then I stop the med, because it seems crazy to be ingesting something with these side effects.
My profession demands that I simply can't be forgetting what I am saying mid sentence.
The nortriptyline was also really screwing up my field of vision. First of all, it makes colors look faded and less vibrant. Nextly it makes objects lose their shape (I know this sounds weird, but it made objects look like they were colapsing). Also it makes things look like they are coming in on me, kind of how salvia felt, perhaps cause nortriptyline interacts with kappa receptors.
Anyhow, it just does not feel healthy. I keep saying this can't be good for my brain. Other effects invlude: Strange food cravings, flatulance that smells like lumburgar cheese, sleep attacks, the feeling of being controlled by an external force, the feeling of being watched, sleeping 13 hours a day, irritability, feeling heavy, stupor (blank staring for like 10 min).
Sure, it'd be great if I was trying to pass the time in prison, or a retirement home.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on July 23, 2010, at 16:15:35
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by TenMan on July 23, 2010, at 14:52:50
> Personally, I would be more concerned about the toxicity lifelong chronic depression can have on quality of life.
...and the entire central nervous and endocrine systems.
Personally, I would take the risk with nortriptyline and this BBB stuff, should one even exist. I would want to see some corroborative evidence of such risks produced since the 1972 report was published for me to contemplate discontinuing nortriptyline. That is just me, though. Even if one were to take the authors at their word, they state quite firmly that anomalies in BBB were not seen with therapeutic concentrations of nortriptyline. Similarly, there are cardiotoxic effects that do not emerge until dosages above the therapeutic range are reached.
The problem I have with nortriptyline is that it doesn't work for me monotherapeutically. I find that it is somewhat helpful when combined with other drugs. My only robust drug responses have been in association with combinations of MAOI and TCA. Perhaps it is a matter of the magnitude of pain and debilitation that motivates some people to choose to take risks, known and unknown.
- Scott
Posted by ed_uk2010 on July 23, 2010, at 16:50:07
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2010, at 16:12:44
Link, I've noticed that whatever meds(s) you take, you always report unusual side effects or worry about toxicity. I don't think you will ever be comfortable with taking medication because you are too worried about adverse effects... either now or potential adverse effects in the future. Perhaps you should take no medication at all?
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2010, at 17:11:51
In reply to Re: toxic crap » linkadge, posted by ed_uk2010 on July 23, 2010, at 16:50:07
>Perhaps you should take no medication at all?
Sounds ok to me.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on July 23, 2010, at 18:55:20
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2010, at 17:11:51
> >Perhaps you should take no medication at all?
>
> Sounds ok to me.
>
> LinkadgeIt might not be a bad idea for you to familiarize yourself with your drug-free baseline illness so that you can more easily differentiate between the cognitive effects of the illness and drug side effects. If you should decide to return to pharmacotherapy, it might be interesting to try lithium monotherapy first, seeing as how drug responses are often familial. I would then add back nortriptyline, with or without the escitalopram.
If I were you, I would simply take the leap of faith and continue with the nortriptyline and go on to euthymia. Once you are euthymic for a few months, you can reevaluate your treatment history, quality of response, and remaining alternatives. One of the alternatives you will always have available to you is to discontinue the nortriptyline and feel like crap again.
- Scott
Posted by emmanuel98 on July 23, 2010, at 20:16:19
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2010, at 17:11:51
Seriously, if your problem is brief, recurrent depressions rather than chronic severe depression (which was my problem), CBT or DBT are the way to go. Learn how to manage your response to it. Tell yourself this will end, you won't always feel this way. I agree. Why mess with potential side effects if you can manage your emotions with therapy?
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2010, at 21:02:05
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by emmanuel98 on July 23, 2010, at 20:16:19
Therapy doesn't seem to do anything for me to prevent the episodes, or really modify their sevarity for that matter.
My mother is bipolar, so that diagnosis has been thrown around.
I think I'm just going to continue with meds on an as needed basis. They've been working fairly well that way.
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on July 23, 2010, at 21:26:38
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by SLS on July 23, 2010, at 14:32:17
Ya know, after re-reading that study I think I will still consider Nortriptyline as an adjunct therapy.
Posted by inanimate peanut on July 23, 2010, at 22:49:24
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2010, at 16:12:44
If the side effects are the problem, every one of us has side effects for almost every drug we take. Talk about that and stop trying to scare people off nortriptyline by talking about BBB effects that only happen at toxic levels anyway. At least by talking about the real side effects, people can look at them and say they do/don't have them, could/could not tolerate and do/do not believe that they would be worth it to feel better re depression. You have the luxury of using drugs to make you better from time to time when you feel down. There are some of us whose lives are not worth living without these drugs. I know that some of my drugs and especially the combinations of some of my drugs are making me decidedly less healthy but I also know that I either wouldn't be alive or would wish I weren't if I stopped taking them, so I don't have the same luxury you do of only taking what makes me feel "healthy." Just remember that the people that you may be scaring off trying drugs with posts like this may or may not truly *need* that drug for basic quality of life.
Posted by SLS on July 24, 2010, at 5:19:17
In reply to Re: toxic crap » SLS, posted by morgan miller on July 23, 2010, at 21:26:38
> Ya know, after re-reading that study I think I will still consider Nortriptyline as an adjunct therapy.
One important fact to note is that barbiturate anesthesias by themselves alter BBB function. This complicates the interpretation of the results of the study. It is possible that nortriptyline has no BBB effects in the absence of barbiturate.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on July 24, 2010, at 7:25:19
In reply to toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 22, 2010, at 20:15:37
This assumes that our blood brain barriers are not already compromised. I don't think that is a realistic assumption. The handful of top contenders behind depression all have brain barrier damage in their physiology.
Even Tylenol is toxic. I am not convinced there is any man made chemical that is not toxic in one way or another.
Most of the big players in the plant world have practically zero toxicity even in super mega doses. I think meds at low doses are often essetial, but that the true healing does not happen until a comprehensive approach with plants is added.
> Great, so nortriptyline apprently f's up the blood brain barrier. Well, it was good while it lasted.
>
> Linkadge
>
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WXH-4DDNKY2-6J&_user=10&_coverDate=09%2F30%2F1973&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1409078450&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=088b8e050d84472601ea2e78c375b888
>
>
Posted by polarbear206 on July 24, 2010, at 10:48:01
In reply to Re: toxic crap » linkadge, posted by inanimate peanut on July 23, 2010, at 22:49:24
> If the side effects are the problem, every one of us has side effects for almost every drug we take. Talk about that and stop trying to scare people off nortriptyline by talking about BBB effects that only happen at toxic levels anyway. At least by talking about the real side effects, people can look at them and say they do/don't have them, could/could not tolerate and do/do not believe that they would be worth it to feel better re depression. You have the luxury of using drugs to make you better from time to time when you feel down. There are some of us whose lives are not worth living without these drugs. I know that some of my drugs and especially the combinations of some of my drugs are making me decidedly less healthy but I also know that I either wouldn't be alive or would wish I weren't if I stopped taking them, so I don't have the same luxury you do of only taking what makes me feel "healthy." Just remember that the people that you may be scaring off trying drugs with posts like this may or may not truly *need* that drug for basic quality of life.
You know, I really feel that there should be another site on here for posters to talk toxic tantrum crap to each other. You know, my great grandmother didn't have the luxury of medication and she died in a mental institution. My mother never got to know her. It's very sad. I am so thankful for medication to be able to FUNCTION normally in daily life and not live in a vegetated state.I have patients that have been on tricyclics since they were on the market that don't have any ADVERSE side effects. I took Imipramine for years before Effexor came on the market.
And to Inanimate Peanut, kudos to your response, I'm right there with ya.
Posted by linkadge on July 24, 2010, at 14:20:43
In reply to Re: toxic crap » linkadge, posted by inanimate peanut on July 23, 2010, at 22:49:24
Sure, it happens at a toxic level (~10 times the theraputic level), but the effects were immediate. I would assume that using the medication at 1/10 this for years could produce similar effects.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 24, 2010, at 14:23:53
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by polarbear206 on July 24, 2010, at 10:48:01
Well, whatever does it for you.
Linkadge
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2010, at 14:52:33
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by polarbear206 on July 24, 2010, at 10:48:01
> > If the side effects are the problem, every one of us has side effects for almost every drug we take. Talk about that and stop trying to scare people off nortriptyline by talking about BBB effects that only happen at toxic levels anyway. At least by talking about the real side effects, people can look at them and say they do/don't have them, could/could not tolerate and do/do not believe that they would be worth it to feel better re depression. You have the luxury of using drugs to make you better from time to time when you feel down. There are some of us whose lives are not worth living without these drugs. I know that some of my drugs and especially the combinations of some of my drugs are making me decidedly less healthy but I also know that I either wouldn't be alive or would wish I weren't if I stopped taking them, so I don't have the same luxury you do of only taking what makes me feel "healthy." Just remember that the people that you may be scaring off trying drugs with posts like this may or may not truly *need* that drug for basic quality of life.
>
>
> You know, I really feel that there should be another site on here for posters to talk toxic tantrum crap to each other. You know, my great grandmother didn't have the luxury of medication and she died in a mental institution. My mother never got to know her. It's very sad. I am so thankful for medication to be able to FUNCTION normally in daily life and not live in a vegetated state.
>
> I have patients that have been on tricyclics since they were on the market that don't have any ADVERSE side effects. I took Imipramine for years before Effexor came on the market.
>
> And to Inanimate Peanut, kudos to your response, I'm right there with ya.pb206,
I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. Ifyou could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. In,[...I have patients..]
1a. Are you someone that has the authority to prescribe drugs by law?
2a. If so, what is yur title?
B. In,[...been on tricyclics (for 50 years?)and do not have any ADVERSE side effects..]
1b. redacted by respondent
2b. is there a journal report of these people that you could post a link to here?
C.In, [...I took (a tricyclic) for years...]
1c. Assuming that you are not one of the paitients that you refer to as taking these drugs for (50?) years without adverse effects, but you could be a patient of another prescriber of psychotropic drugs, are you included or not included in those that {don't have any AVERSE side effects?
D. In,[...before Effexor came on the market...]
1d. If you are substituting Effexor for the tricyclic,what was the primary reason you discontinued the tricyclic, if you did so?
2d. If I find out the reason, if any, then I could ask if you advise others to substitute Effexor for a tricyclic, if you did so. If so, what could be the reason for that advice and if not, what was your reason for the substitution if there was one?
E. In,[...for posters to talk xxxx yyyyyy zzzz...]
e1. My research shows that about 36,000 people die yearly from psychotropic drugs in one way or another. This statistic is unkniwn to me if it is or is not just in the U.S. If not, then interpolation could mean that about 500,000 people die each year from psychotropic drugs. If that is so, then milllions of people will die fromn psychotropic drugs in the future.
e1. Could you post your rationale here for stateing that you want another site for those that you consider to be xxxxx yyyyy zzzz?
e2. there is now a warning about the possibility of many psychotropic drugs to induce a mind-alterd state that could cause the one taking the drug to want to kill thenmselves.
(redacted by respondent) If one was posting here about that, would that content be (redacted by respondent)
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2010, at 15:17:56
In reply to Lou's request-gvmelboargvmedth » polarbear206, posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2010, at 14:52:33
> > > If the side effects are the problem, every one of us has side effects for almost every drug we take. Talk about that and stop trying to scare people off nortriptyline by talking about BBB effects that only happen at toxic levels anyway. At least by talking about the real side effects, people can look at them and say they do/don't have them, could/could not tolerate and do/do not believe that they would be worth it to feel better re depression. You have the luxury of using drugs to make you better from time to time when you feel down. There are some of us whose lives are not worth living without these drugs. I know that some of my drugs and especially the combinations of some of my drugs are making me decidedly less healthy but I also know that I either wouldn't be alive or would wish I weren't if I stopped taking them, so I don't have the same luxury you do of only taking what makes me feel "healthy." Just remember that the people that you may be scaring off trying drugs with posts like this may or may not truly *need* that drug for basic quality of life.
> >
> >
> > You know, I really feel that there should be another site on here for posters to talk toxic tantrum crap to each other. You know, my great grandmother didn't have the luxury of medication and she died in a mental institution. My mother never got to know her. It's very sad. I am so thankful for medication to be able to FUNCTION normally in daily life and not live in a vegetated state.
> >
> > I have patients that have been on tricyclics since they were on the market that don't have any ADVERSE side effects. I took Imipramine for years before Effexor came on the market.
> >
> > And to Inanimate Peanut, kudos to your response, I'm right there with ya.
>
> pb206,
> I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. Ifyou could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A. In,[...I have patients..]
> 1a. Are you someone that has the authority to prescribe drugs by law?
> 2a. If so, what is yur title?
> B. In,[...been on tricyclics (for 50 years?)and do not have any ADVERSE side effects..]
> 1b. redacted by respondent
> 2b. is there a journal report of these people that you could post a link to here?
> C.In, [...I took (a tricyclic) for years...]
> 1c. Assuming that you are not one of the paitients that you refer to as taking these drugs for (50?) years without adverse effects, but you could be a patient of another prescriber of psychotropic drugs, are you included or not included in those that {don't have any AVERSE side effects?
> D. In,[...before Effexor came on the market...]
> 1d. If you are substituting Effexor for the tricyclic,what was the primary reason you discontinued the tricyclic, if you did so?
> 2d. If I find out the reason, if any, then I could ask if you advise others to substitute Effexor for a tricyclic, if you did so. If so, what could be the reason for that advice and if not, what was your reason for the substitution if there was one?
> E. In,[...for posters to talk xxxx yyyyyy zzzz...]
> e1. My research shows that about 36,000 people die yearly from psychotropic drugs in one way or another. This statistic is unkniwn to me if it is or is not just in the U.S. If not, then interpolation could mean that about 500,000 people die each year from psychotropic drugs. If that is so, then milllions of people will die fromn psychotropic drugs in the future.
> e1. Could you post your rationale here for stateing that you want another site for those that you consider to be xxxxx yyyyy zzzz?
> e2. there is now a warning about the possibility of many psychotropic drugs to induce a mind-alterd state that could cause the one taking the drug to want to kill thenmselves.
> (redacted by respondent) If one was posting here about that, would that content be (redacted by respondent)
> LouFriends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread or paralle thead, I would like for you to look at the video here to discuss facts.
Lou
You can view this video by:
A. bring up google
B. Key in
[youtube, fatal overdose with effexor]
you will see a woman with a red dress on
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2010, at 15:58:47
In reply to Lou's request-sgtphriedhy, posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2010, at 15:17:56
> > > > If the side effects are the problem, every one of us has side effects for almost every drug we take. Talk about that and stop trying to scare people off nortriptyline by talking about BBB effects that only happen at toxic levels anyway. At least by talking about the real side effects, people can look at them and say they do/don't have them, could/could not tolerate and do/do not believe that they would be worth it to feel better re depression. You have the luxury of using drugs to make you better from time to time when you feel down. There are some of us whose lives are not worth living without these drugs. I know that some of my drugs and especially the combinations of some of my drugs are making me decidedly less healthy but I also know that I either wouldn't be alive or would wish I weren't if I stopped taking them, so I don't have the same luxury you do of only taking what makes me feel "healthy." Just remember that the people that you may be scaring off trying drugs with posts like this may or may not truly *need* that drug for basic quality of life.
> > >
> > >
> > > You know, I really feel that there should be another site on here for posters to talk toxic tantrum crap to each other. You know, my great grandmother didn't have the luxury of medication and she died in a mental institution. My mother never got to know her. It's very sad. I am so thankful for medication to be able to FUNCTION normally in daily life and not live in a vegetated state.
> > >
> > > I have patients that have been on tricyclics since they were on the market that don't have any ADVERSE side effects. I took Imipramine for years before Effexor came on the market.
> > >
> > > And to Inanimate Peanut, kudos to your response, I'm right there with ya.
> >
> > pb206,
> > I am unsure as to what you are wanting to mean here. Ifyou could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> > A. In,[...I have patients..]
> > 1a. Are you someone that has the authority to prescribe drugs by law?
> > 2a. If so, what is yur title?
> > B. In,[...been on tricyclics (for 50 years?)and do not have any ADVERSE side effects..]
> > 1b. redacted by respondent
> > 2b. is there a journal report of these people that you could post a link to here?
> > C.In, [...I took (a tricyclic) for years...]
> > 1c. Assuming that you are not one of the paitients that you refer to as taking these drugs for (50?) years without adverse effects, but you could be a patient of another prescriber of psychotropic drugs, are you included or not included in those that {don't have any AVERSE side effects?
> > D. In,[...before Effexor came on the market...]
> > 1d. If you are substituting Effexor for the tricyclic,what was the primary reason you discontinued the tricyclic, if you did so?
> > 2d. If I find out the reason, if any, then I could ask if you advise others to substitute Effexor for a tricyclic, if you did so. If so, what could be the reason for that advice and if not, what was your reason for the substitution if there was one?
> > E. In,[...for posters to talk xxxx yyyyyy zzzz...]
> > e1. My research shows that about 36,000 people die yearly from psychotropic drugs in one way or another. This statistic is unkniwn to me if it is or is not just in the U.S. If not, then interpolation could mean that about 500,000 people die each year from psychotropic drugs. If that is so, then milllions of people will die fromn psychotropic drugs in the future.
> > e1. Could you post your rationale here for stateing that you want another site for those that you consider to be xxxxx yyyyy zzzz?
> > e2. there is now a warning about the possibility of many psychotropic drugs to induce a mind-alterd state that could cause the one taking the drug to want to kill thenmselves.
> > (redacted by respondent) If one was posting here about that, would that content be (redacted by respondent)
> > Lou
>
> Friends,
> If you are considering being a discussant in this thread or paralle thead, I would like for you to look at the video here to discuss facts.
> Lou
> You can view this video by:
> A. bring up google
> B. Key in
> [youtube, fatal overdose with effexor]
> you will see a woman with a red dress onFriends,
There are facts concerning taking psychoactive chemicals. Here is a video that is from a doctor thatI would like for you to view so that we could incorporate any facts into this discussion.
Lou
You could view this video by:
A. bring up google
B. key in:
[youtube, Dr. Gary Kohls, SSRI Drugs are]
if you see a picture of Dr. Kohles, it could be the first one. He will be talking about what could happen to a person that takes those drugs from a doctors perspective.
Posted by SLS on July 24, 2010, at 16:35:30
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 24, 2010, at 14:20:43
> Sure, it happens at a toxic level (~10 times the theraputic level), but the effects were immediate. I would assume that using the medication at 1/10 this for years could produce similar effects.
Precisely what effects? What are the negative consequences of the effects reported by the 1972 study?
Is there any scientific basis for making this assumption? Is that how the numbers work?
You are a very frustrating man to deal with, Linkadge. Everyone wants you to get well. Maybe you will ultimately know what is best for you to do. I hope so. However, it looks to me like you are abandoning a rare opportunity to attain remission by using a treatment that has been deemed safe by the medical community for decades.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by ed_uk2010 on July 24, 2010, at 16:53:27
In reply to Re: toxic crap, posted by linkadge on July 24, 2010, at 14:20:43
>Sure, it happens at a toxic level (~10 times the theraputic level), but the effects were immediate. I would assume that using the medication at 1/10 this for years could produce similar effects.
Linkadge, the study proves absolutely nothing - it wouldn't be wise to make any assumptions. If you were planning on anesthetising yourself with a potent barbiturate and then injecting a concentrated solution of nortriptyline into your carotid artery, the study may have greater relevence. Additionally, you are not a rat.
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