![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by sukarno on June 7, 2010, at 12:50:18
In reply to Re: Post-SSRI permanent sexual dysfunction? Real?, posted by manic 666 on June 6, 2010, at 9:25:52
There is a Yahoo group consisting of hundreds of people, albeit anecdotal accounts, with this syndrome.
I suppose pramipexole or ropinirole could be useful (and safer) since ergot derivatives can cause fibrosis in the heart and lungs.
Posted by Brainbeard on June 10, 2010, at 6:50:37
In reply to Re: Post-SSRI permanent sexual dysfunction? Real?, posted by sukarno on June 7, 2010, at 12:50:18
Posted by manic666 on June 10, 2010, at 7:39:33
In reply to Yep. SSRI's may be worse for the brain than XTC. (nm), posted by Brainbeard on June 10, 2010, at 6:50:37
Posted by Conundrum on June 10, 2010, at 9:24:02
In reply to Yep. SSRI's may be worse for the brain than XTC. (nm), posted by Brainbeard on June 10, 2010, at 6:50:37
Posted by Brainbeard on June 10, 2010, at 15:28:18
In reply to brainbeard a wealth of imformation /// thanks (nm), posted by manic666 on June 10, 2010, at 7:39:33
Posted by violette on June 11, 2010, at 2:36:54
In reply to Yep. SSRI's may be worse for the brain than XTC. (nm), posted by Brainbeard on June 10, 2010, at 6:50:37
Brainbeard - would you mind sharing how SSRIs cause damage to the brain????
Posted by Brainbeard on June 11, 2010, at 9:57:46
In reply to Re: Yep. SSRI's may be worse for the brain than XTC. » Brainbeard, posted by violette on June 11, 2010, at 2:36:54
> Brainbeard - would you mind sharing how SSRIs cause damage to the brain????
Animal studies have shown that SSRI's produce morphological changes in several brain regions after a couple of days of high doses. That is to say, they deform certain parts of the brain. Reseachers saw marked changes in nerve terminals which release serotonin, and they saw cells that shriveled or took on abnormal corkscrew shapes. Moreover, the brain cell changes with SSRIs were similar to those observed with MDMA (XTC).
Now, we don't know wether the same holds true for humans. "We don't know if results with four days of drug treatment are clinically significant," says Madhu Kalia, the professor at Jefferson Medical College of Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia who led the study. "We don't know if the cells are dying. That's the key question. We need to do more studies to prove cell death. These effects may be transient and reversible. Or they may be permanent."
Well, apparently noone is interested in funding these studies - they would be very costly and where does the money for pharmacological research usually come from? Yep, from the pharmaceutical industry. What interest would Big Pharma have in funding studies that would show SSRI's to be neurotoxic?
Although scientifically, we don't know wether SSRI's cause permanent or long-lasting brain damage, in real life there are lots of clues that point to temporary or permanent brain damage. One such clue is the often persistant sexual dysfunction and lowered libido experienced even years after SSRI use. Post-SSRI sexual dysfunction and other problems are being discussed here on Babble extensively.
Links to the study:
Popular:
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2000/D/200003824.html
Scientific:
Manic, I hope this overload of information is not lethal. ;)
Posted by Conundrum on June 11, 2010, at 10:10:07
In reply to Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC, posted by Brainbeard on June 11, 2010, at 9:57:46
I thought MDMA often causes over heating and even death especially in clubs where people might not be keeping hyrdrated.
I think it does cause permanent changes. Here I am 7 years after taking and SSRI with permanent changes including anhedonia, poor concentration, poor memory, change in libido, joint pain, and bad dreams.
Taking an SSRI forces the brain to make adaptive changes, but discontinuing the drug doesn't seem to give the brain any impetus to change back to baseline.
Posted by chujoe on June 11, 2010, at 11:21:04
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC » Brainbeard, posted by Conundrum on June 11, 2010, at 10:10:07
>>Here I am 7 years after taking and SSRI with permanent changes including anhedonia, poor concentration, poor memory, change in libido, joint pain, and bad dreams.<<
I'm not doubting your experience, but I don't think you can make a very strong case for the SSRI leading necessarily to the conditions & symptoms you describe. As a counter example, ten years ago I had a manic episode with very high levels of anxiety, intrusive thinking, and other frightening symptoms. I was treated with an SSRI and recovered. After a couple of years I discontinued the drug and went along happily for another seven years of so, until, last summer, I had another episode of crazy anxiety and depression. I was put on an SSRI, which was only partly effective, so I switched to an SNRI, which has worked very well.
Now, it's possible of course that the SSRI damaged my brain in some way and perhaps even contributed to the second episode, but it's very difficult to make that case because of the long period of normal functioning. (I also had symptoms long before I ever tried an SSRI.) And maybe I am damaging my brain now, but I'm not willing to go back to the way I felt last summer.
Do SSRIs only damage some people's brains? What is the nature of the damage? Is all change in brain anatomy & function to be considered damage? Our brains change in response to many things -- food, psychological stress, learning, drugs, environmental factors, etc. Do SSRIs have a particularly dangerous effect on the brain? Can you be certain you wouldn't have the symptoms you have now if you had not taken an SSRI?
Conundrum, I'm not trying to be confrontational, nor do I believe psych drugs are a panacea; but I think blanket statements about whole classes of drugs are very hard to support, either logically, or on the basis of clinical evidence.
Posted by violette on June 11, 2010, at 12:10:10
In reply to Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC, posted by Brainbeard on June 11, 2010, at 9:57:46
Thanks for your reply Brainbeard. I would like to see researchers study the long term effects of the second generation ADs. The government can fund research that pharma isn't incentivized to do.
I actually do have brain damage, cognitive/ neurological problems after taking an assortment of ADs for a decade. I had intensive neuropsych testing which revealed memory deficits and other cognitive problems that, according to the dr., could not be attributed to mental illness. I have also had hemifacial spasms, trangeminal neuralgia, blepharitis (i know i spelled these incorrectly). I never got the full neurological tests because I can't afford them, but my MRI was abnormal. The neuro-psych, who is very reputable and experienced by the way, said he was perplexed by my results, which were similar to someone having been exposed to toxic or metal poisoning. Besides the MRI, the neurologist tested me for Lyme and infections but they came back negative. Since no one in my family had ever had neurological disorders, the neuro didn't know what the problem was despite the MRI. I don't think I have MS, but things like MS take a while to diagnose because symptoms can occur slowly or intermittently.
Some of my symptoms could be psychosomatic. But the MRI can't be. I wish I had not taken ADs as long as I did. There's no way to tell if they caused damage, and I did need them at one point, but what I really needed was the right type of psychotherapy, which was not considered or discussed with me by any of the half dozen psychiatrists I've seen over the years. The way psychiatry is practiced today, though better than the last century, is still very disappointing.
My rant for the day...
Posted by manic666 on June 11, 2010, at 13:16:39
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC, posted by violette on June 11, 2010, at 12:10:10
Are ssri,s bad for your brain//probably like all the class,s of meds// some nuke your vital organs ,some your brain//do you mean you didnt no/// there is no such thing as a free lunch there called side effects //tempory or perminent//20 years down the line your brain an organs are not going to be the same if you didnt take meds nor are are jionts.We have a choise ,,hear they are//meds mmmmmmmm may get better //no meds may get better, but probably a lot worse may even die //we dont ask these qestions at the start of meds do we always 10year down the line///look at ativan thousands in britain tried to sue the company for addiction probs//they lost the case big time ,the company was not to no what would happed 20 years later//it hasnt stopped people takeing them//there is mabye 1,000-000 popping there first at this moment in time//so ssris may damage your brain//an every new drug that comes along will do the same an someone will ask this same question in 10 years time about a new med//
Posted by Conundrum on June 11, 2010, at 15:29:25
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 11, 2010, at 11:21:04
I never had these symptoms before. Thats not why I was taking SSRIs in the first place. I would gladly go back to those days compared to how I feel now.
Posted by Conundrum on June 11, 2010, at 15:31:13
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC, posted by violette on June 11, 2010, at 12:10:10
Have you ever seen this?
Posted by Conundrum on June 11, 2010, at 15:34:54
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC, posted by manic666 on June 11, 2010, at 13:16:39
>Are ssri,s bad for your brain//probably like all the class,s of meds// some nuke your vital organs ,some your brain//do you mean you didnt no
No I didn't know I was 16 and trusted my mom and the doctor, if it were totally up to me I wouldn't have tried prozac. Also, last time I checked it doesn't say SSRIs are bad for your brain or cause brain damage on package inserts.
/an every new drug that comes along will do the same an someone will ask this same question in 10 years time about a new med//
Great. BTW There aren't forums dedicated to brain damage from Tricyclics or Maois just the newer generation of drugs. Seems money has gotten in the way of protecting patients.
Posted by Brainbeard on June 11, 2010, at 16:08:10
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC » Conundrum, posted by chujoe on June 11, 2010, at 11:21:04
>Is all change in brain anatomy & function to be considered damage? Our brains change in response to many things -- food, psychological stress, learning, drugs, environmental factors, etc.
Excellent contribution. Good question, true statement. A brain is a constantly changing thing. 'Brain plasticity' is the name of the beast, if my memory serves me right. Plasticity will have its limits, on the other hand. But I was a little quick in using the word 'damage'.
Posted by Conundrum on June 11, 2010, at 16:12:17
In reply to .. + why we can't be sure if 'bad' is all that bad, posted by Brainbeard on June 11, 2010, at 16:08:10
Its only damage if the patient doesn't like the permanent changes. But changes exist none the less.
Posted by Brainbeard on June 11, 2010, at 16:14:21
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC, posted by violette on June 11, 2010, at 12:10:10
Sorry to hear about your problems. The story is so complex. Meds can save a life or destroy it and anything in between. And they are just one factor interacting with countless other aspects of life as well as biochemistry. So it would be more accurate to say that they can contribute to saving a life or destroying it or anything in between.
My little rant.
Posted by Brainbeard on June 11, 2010, at 16:23:14
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC, posted by manic666 on June 11, 2010, at 13:16:39
>there is no such thing as a free lunch there called side effects
That's right. There's always a deal. There's a trade off. And there's always an element of risk, of uncertainty, of luck. Just look at what we all hope for here on Babble, and what we actually get. Some couldn't function without meds, some thrive on placebo effect, some love to hate their meds, few win the jackpot, most walk with pharmacotherapeutical crutches. (Some run and leap with 'em and may not need meds at all.)
Posted by Brainbeard on June 11, 2010, at 16:43:28
In reply to Post-SSRI permanent sexual dysfunction? Real?, posted by Franz on May 26, 2010, at 10:52:49
Posted by violette on June 12, 2010, at 15:52:43
In reply to 'Save and destroy' » violette, posted by Brainbeard on June 11, 2010, at 16:14:21
Thanks Brainbeard. I still think its worth exploring whether ADs cause long-term problems that can no longer be treated by psychotropics.
There are many people here that complain of adehonia, lack of motivation, no life enjoyment (often referred to as apathy). It does sound like a form of depression but if you look at the neuro journals, there's alot of more recent research that promotes viewing "apathy" as a neurological symptom and a precursor to neuro conditions rather than a merely a psychological one. I wonder if some people need a neurologist rather than a psychiatrist, but because of the way the system works-maybe a pereson had one episode of depression in the past-non-psychological medical conditions are rarely checked into.
Anyway, I found out it is so much more difficult as a lay person to research neurology than psychology and psychiatry. Researching all this crap is a strategy for me to avoid fears, so I'm weaning myself off it. I do have one question for you that just popped up in my mind-can Gaba deficiency cause neuro problems? The neuro prescribed me anticonvulsants, but I never took them. I can live with the neuro symptoms as they are now, w/o meds and wondered if Gabapentin or Carbamazine would cause more cognitive problems for me despite relief of symptoms. the neuro symptoms are intermittent and I can deal with them. The severe trangeminal nerve pain started after taking Effexor years ago, and ever since, it comes and goes, but it not as severe anymore.
Oh and thanks for the articles. I had extreme myclonic jerks and spasms just like one of the patients in the article after trying Lamictal. I still have movement disorder issues, but the symptoms are not debilitating anymore and I'm currently not being treated for them since it was disappointing that none of the doctors found a cause and just wanted to treat the symptoms.
Here's a cool website for ya all:
http://www.benbest.com/science/anatmind/anatmd10.html
Though I don't read this stuff anymore, I'm wondering about the gaba. My primary symptomright now is lack of motivation, which I'm working on in psychotherapy. But I'm still trying medications here and there. I suspect the amovotivation may be all psychological since my other symptoms are psychological and are better addressed with therapy as meds haven't worked as well as pyschotherapy for anxiety/depression, but am second guessing myself about the motivation issue, wondering about the gaba.
Posted by Huxley on June 14, 2010, at 17:48:51
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC, posted by Conundrum on June 11, 2010, at 15:34:54
> >Are ssri,s bad for your brain//probably like all the class,s of meds// some nuke your vital organs ,some your brain//do you mean you didnt no
>
> No I didn't know I was 16 and trusted my mom and the doctor, if it were totally up to me I wouldn't have tried prozac. Also, last time I checked it doesn't say SSRIs are bad for your brain or cause brain damage on package inserts.
>
> /an every new drug that comes along will do the same an someone will ask this same question in 10 years time about a new med//
>
> Great. BTW There aren't forums dedicated to brain damage from Tricyclics or Maois just the newer generation of drugs. Seems money has gotten in the way of protecting patients.Hi Conundrum.
I am of the same opinon.
I would never have taken meds if they wern't pushed on me by a drug happy dr who I trusted.I dont see why these drugs would be any better than the devils we know, exstacy, heroin, cocaine, speed.
Look at the long term results for those drugs. Why would our meds be any different? Just because they have good sounding names like anti-depresants, mood stabalisers and anti-psychotics?
I am in the process of trying to get off several drugs including an SSNI a AP and a mood stabliser.
Next to the withdrawal being absolute hell and close to impossible, I am very disconcerted with the idea of long term damage.
You only get one life, one body and one brain . It is not right to be subjected to this.
Posted by Conundrum on June 14, 2010, at 22:20:35
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC, posted by Huxley on June 14, 2010, at 17:48:51
Just be sure to withdrawal very slowly. If you have been on drugs for many years it make take 6 months to get off some drugs. You have to go with the signs your body gives you.
Posted by Huxley on June 15, 2010, at 1:30:25
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC » Huxley, posted by Conundrum on June 14, 2010, at 22:20:35
Yeh I have found that out the hard way. Thanks for the advice.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on June 16, 2010, at 4:24:25
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC, posted by violette on June 11, 2010, at 12:10:10
> Thanks for your reply Brainbeard. I would like to see researchers study the long term effects of the second generation ADs. The government can fund research that pharma isn't incentivized to do.
>
> I actually do have brain damage, cognitive/ neurological problems after taking an assortment of ADs for a decade. I had intensive neuropsych testing which revealed memory deficits and other cognitive problems that, according to the dr., could not be attributed to mental illness. I have also had hemifacial spasms, trangeminal neuralgia, blepharitis (i know i spelled these incorrectly). I never got the full neurological tests because I can't afford them, but my MRI was abnormal. The neuro-psych, who is very reputable and experienced by the way, said he was perplexed by my results, which were similar to someone having been exposed to toxic or metal poisoning. Besides the MRI, the neurologist tested me for Lyme and infections but they came back negative. Since no one in my family had ever had neurological disorders, the neuro didn't know what the problem was despite the MRI. I don't think I have MS, but things like MS take a while to diagnose because symptoms can occur slowly or intermittently.
>
> Some of my symptoms could be psychosomatic. But the MRI can't be. I wish I had not taken ADs as long as I did. There's no way to tell if they caused damage, and I did need them at one point, but what I really needed was the right type of psychotherapy, which was not considered or discussed with me by any of the half dozen psychiatrists I've seen over the years. The way psychiatry is practiced today, though better than the last century, is still very disappointing.
>
> My rant for the day...i apologise if this is a redundant and/or previously explored suggestion, but have you ever considered treatment with cognitive enhancers (stimulants, acetylcholine inhibitors, memantine)? stimulants, for example, show evidence of yielding improvements in head-trauma cases, etc.
Posted by med-amorphosis on June 20, 2010, at 5:46:23
In reply to Re: Why SSRI's may be AS BAD for the brain as XTC » violette, posted by g_g_g_unit on June 16, 2010, at 4:24:25
Well I was under the impression that SSRIs, especially Prozac (& citalopram it seems) actually 'protect' the toxic effects of E. And that you need more E to get the usaul effect from it. I KNOW people who no longer get 'mid-week blues' after taking E since taking an SSRI (in this case citalopram). Anyone differ on opinion?
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.