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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by angels78 on April 28, 2010, at 7:51:35
Thoughts?
Posted by jedi on April 28, 2010, at 16:14:02
In reply to Can Benzo's cause MAOI's to lose efficiency?, posted by angels78 on April 28, 2010, at 7:51:35
> Thoughts?
Hi Angel,
What Benzo are you taking? I think most affect GABA which can be an augmenter for Nardil. I have taken 1-2 mg of clonazepam to augment between 60 and 90mg of Nardil over the years. I am off right now after surgery. But for me, Nardil + clonazepam is the gold standard for treatment of Social anxiety.
Jedi
Posted by jedi on April 28, 2010, at 16:15:49
In reply to Can Benzo's cause MAOI's to lose efficiency?, posted by angels78 on April 28, 2010, at 7:51:35
> Thoughts?
PS If you've just come off the initial euphoria of Nardil, it can take some time to get used to the true affect.
Jedi
Posted by angels78 on April 29, 2010, at 7:44:49
In reply to Re: Can Benzo's cause MAOI's to lose efficiency? » angels78, posted by jedi on April 28, 2010, at 16:14:02
Hey thank you for the response Jedi. I was currently taking Xanax(1mg) + 20 (mg) Ambien a night to help go to sleep. I cut the Xanax just recently out because the day following I honestly started feeling like my old self before the nardil. I have just recently have gotten off my Nardil "Europhia" boy was it great, I almost felt like I was cured. Then 3-4 weeks later, I didn't know if it was the Benzo that had changed it, or the europhia went away.
Is there an estimated time that I can begin feeling the truth effect of Nardil 60mg? I have patience so waiting 2 months is not a problem aslong as it helps :)
I've also started to get a little fatigued at night even before my ambien, does this pass?
Thanks
Michael
Posted by stargazer2 on April 29, 2010, at 9:07:17
In reply to Can Benzo's cause MAOI's to lose efficiency?, posted by angels78 on April 28, 2010, at 7:51:35
I would think all benzos can cause any AD to lose efficiancy, as they are considered depressants, aren't they?
The only time my doc allowed me to augment with a benzo was while I was in bad shape, trying to find another med (AD) to control my symptoms.
If I had an addictive personality I might have always chosen to take a benzo because my underlying depression has a large anxiety component.
My doc will not prescribe benzos long term, and I have never (except once) asked for a refill.
I'm glad I never got dependent on them as I would think they can mask the normal anxiety of life, which keeps one on their toes and makes one strive to be a productive person. Good anxiety can help with problem solving, performance, etc.
Some life issues should cause anxiety and helps warn of bad situations so that good decisions can be made.
Of course all of this is my opinion. There is no right and wrong here, just trying to find a balance so that meds don't mess me up anymore than I already am. Being too complacent feels good sometimes, but not long term. Normal life has a lot of struggles and to try and shut everything down, can cause more problems, long term.
Posted by pedr on April 29, 2010, at 9:22:17
In reply to Re: Can Benzo's cause MAOI's to lose efficiency?, posted by jedi on April 28, 2010, at 16:15:49
Hi,
> Is there an estimated time that I can begin feeling the truth effect of Nardil 60mg? I have patience so waiting 2 months is not a problem aslong as it helps :)I have found that, in general, Nardil has slowly kept improving as time has gone by, even after 6+ months. My s/e's are also constantly evolving and mostly calming down and eventually disappearing. It's good that you're aware of the Nardil euphoria, it can be pretty galling when that stops, it feels so wonderful! That said, I feel far more like the old "me" now, which I have always assumed is the goal of A/D's.
If you have patience then I'd recommend employing it on Nardil, it does have the ability to keep improving over months. BTW I had to go up to 90mg as I was crashing now and again on 60mg. I don't know for sure if I need 90mg. Part of me is too afraid to rock the boat and try 60mg again :/
HTH,
Pete
Posted by jedi on April 29, 2010, at 13:45:31
In reply to Re: Can Benzo's cause MAOI's/Probably, posted by stargazer2 on April 29, 2010, at 9:07:17
Hi Stargazer,
I think you are so right about the effects of benzodiazapines. I have noticed the change in motivation in myself over the years of augmenting Nardil with clonazepam. However, serious social anxiety is debilitating. Nardil with clonazepam can be the difference between staying in bed all day to avoid the world and having some kind of a life. Both of the medications affect GABA and they do work synergistically on atypical depression and social anxiety.Again, I agree 100% with your statement. I wish I could have lived without the Nardil and the benzos. Before the major depression hit, I was on the edge of being financially independent. I was very goal oriented, had 50 residential rentals, ran and owned an $850,000 per year data networking company and was highly successful. However, when the depression hit, it hit hard. I do not think I would have survived without the medication.
I have been off the Nardil and clonazepam many times to try to live without or find something else that would work. 45+ different combinations of medications. My depression is endogenous. It runs in both sides of my family. I have had at least 3 first cousins who have suicided. For some of us, the medications are a necessary evil.
Take care and be well,
Jedi...
> I'm glad I never got dependent on them as I would think they can mask the normal anxiety of life, which keeps one on their toes and makes one strive to be a productive person. Good anxiety can help with problem solving, performance, etc.
>
> Some life issues should cause anxiety and helps warn of bad situations so that good decisions can be made.
>
> Of course all of this is my opinion. There is no right and wrong here, just trying to find a balance so that meds don't mess me up anymore than I already am. Being too complacent feels good sometimes, but not long term. Normal life has a lot of struggles and to try and shut everything down, can cause more problems, long term.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 29, 2010, at 18:49:16
In reply to Re: Can Benzo's cause MAOI's to lose efficiency?, posted by jedi on April 28, 2010, at 16:15:49
Jedi, great information. How helpful!
Good luck, Angel.
Posted by SLS on April 30, 2010, at 6:49:25
In reply to Re: Can Benzo's cause MAOI's/Probably, posted by stargazer2 on April 29, 2010, at 9:07:17
I don't think a BZD can directly antagonize the mechanisms of antidepressants. However, they can induce a separate depression on their own that can produce a net effect of feeling worse. Clonazepam seems to be the worst offender.
I'm not sure why BZDs are said to be depressants except that they suppress or inhibit excitatory neurons. That doesn't equate to mental depression, though. Same thing with alcohol. I think it is a bit misleading.
- Scott
Posted by angels78 on April 30, 2010, at 7:52:47
In reply to Re: Can Benzo's cause MAOI's/Probably, posted by SLS on April 30, 2010, at 6:49:25
Question:
Should Nardil doses be decreased after a certain period of time, if one is taking 60mg/day?
I've read that after 6 weeks, it should be decreased down to one 15 mg every other day?
Posted by SLS on April 30, 2010, at 8:51:27
In reply to Re: Can Benzo's cause MAOI's/Probably » SLS, posted by angels78 on April 30, 2010, at 7:52:47
> Question:
>
> Should Nardil doses be decreased after a certain period of time, if one is taking 60mg/day?
> I've read that after 6 weeks, it should be decreased down to one 15 mg every other day?That's an old idea that has yet to be proven. I would say that it has all but been disproven. Generally speaking, one should continue taking that dose of an antidepressant that was necessary to produce the initial acute response.
- Scott
Posted by jedi on April 30, 2010, at 11:17:29
In reply to Re: Can Benzo's cause MAOI's/Probably » angels78, posted by SLS on April 30, 2010, at 8:51:27
I agree with Scott totally on this one, and I have taken Nardil for most of the past 12 years. Taking 15 mg every other day would not maintain enough MAO inhibition to help with depression or social anxiety. Just my opinion. In good times. I have been able to reduce my dosage from 90 mg to 60 mg while augmenting with other medications. This helps greatly reduce the side effects and sometimes can maintain an antidepressant response for me.
I just had a hip replacement and have been off Nardil for over a month. For me it usually takes about three months before my major depression returns while off Nardil. Currently I am still taking 5 mg of oxycodone 3 times a day. The opioids have always made my depression better short term. I have no other feelings from this dosage of oxycodone. Just some pain relief and some depression relief.
I believe that the researchers should really be studying the opioid receptors in the brain for finding treatment for the treatment resistant patients out there. When these medications help so many in psychic pain, I'm sure there is a connection. Especially in people with anhedonia, who are unable to experience pleasure due to their depression.
Just my personal thoughts,
Jedi
> > Question:
> >
> > Should Nardil doses be decreased after a certain period of time, if one is taking 60mg/day?
> > I've read that after 6 weeks, it should be decreased down to one 15 mg every other day?
>
> That's an old idea that has yet to be proven. I would say that it has all but been disproven. Generally speaking, one should continue taking that dose of an antidepressant that was necessary to produce the initial acute response.
>
>
> - Scott
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