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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 32 to 56 of 56. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on February 2, 2010, at 10:36:58
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by Sigismund on February 2, 2010, at 2:29:35
>Because children will not be able to use them >recreationally?
I assume you're kidding.
>The main issue here, the very worst thing, is >the recreational use of drugs.
Even abusable drugs can be made less abusable. For instance, amphetamine -> vyvanse. Why can't something similar be done with amineptine?
Linkadge
Posted by Sigismund on February 2, 2010, at 14:48:48
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by linkadge on February 2, 2010, at 10:36:58
>I assume you're kidding.
I'm just trying to understand the group mind or whatever it is that determines policies about drugs.
Otherwise what's the answer to your very good question, which I shall have to look at again.
A bioethicist was on the radio saying that if Ritalin is safe enough to give to kids it is safe enough to be used routinely by anyone.
My guess is that it's given to kids because it is assumed that they are too young to have figured out how to use it recreationally.
Then there's the issue of school and upbringing generally which we don't want to have to interfere with.
>Why can't something similar be done with amineptine?
Yes, why not? Was it some kind of unwelcome challenge to the serotonin depression connection?
Posted by linkadge on February 2, 2010, at 15:54:47
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by Sigismund on February 2, 2010, at 14:48:48
It really depends on the school and the individual. I've heard of 5th graders cheeking ritalin and storing them up, then taking many at once. By highschool, I'd say many students know that ritalin has abuse potential.
There have been many problems of students selling (younger to older) in schools.
Its also not uncommon for kids in highschool to have tried a friends stimulant prescription and then faking ADHD symptoms to get some.
Furthermore, the situation is more complicated in university/college.
Linkadge
Posted by Sigismund on February 2, 2010, at 16:56:02
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by linkadge on February 2, 2010, at 15:54:47
>then faking ADHD symptoms to get some.
That's the only way to get it here.
And half the doctors who give the diagnosis have doubts about it and think that if the Ritalin/Dexedrine really helps they'll do the diagnostic thing.
Half the class of one school here had to carted off by ambulance, some frothing at the mouth. They took about 10 each.
Posted by inanimate peanut on February 2, 2010, at 22:51:19
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by Sigismund on February 2, 2010, at 16:56:02
Does your answer on whether suicide is a viable option thus depend on whether new drugs will become available to treat it? Is there a time limit on suffering? After all, there's always the promise of new drugs (look at Pristiq and Saphris) even if they suck. I don't think we can expect people to hang on with the vague promise of "someday a drug might come along" I think if you're in pain NOW and you've been in extensive pain for a long time and have tried everything available NOW, you have the right to kill yourself (and indeed should be helped to do so in a humane way). Otherwise, it will never end.
Posted by bulldog2 on February 3, 2010, at 15:21:42
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by inanimate peanut on February 2, 2010, at 22:51:19
> Does your answer on whether suicide is a viable option thus depend on whether new drugs will become available to treat it? Is there a time limit on suffering? After all, there's always the promise of new drugs (look at Pristiq and Saphris) even if they suck. I don't think we can expect people to hang on with the vague promise of "someday a drug might come along" I think if you're in pain NOW and you've been in extensive pain for a long time and have tried everything available NOW, you have the right to kill yourself (and indeed should be helped to do so in a humane way). Otherwise, it will never end.
The goal of the pharm companies is to create drugs that make you functional enough to keep the capitalistic machine running. You will achieve your happiness through your work and family. They don't want you to happy from your meds. You may just vegge out and listen to music and not be productive. It's the entire anti pleasure ethic. Basically we're still a puritan society that measures your success and therefore your right to happiness in the amount of goods you produce and consume. So forget good drugs. If you want happy drugs you will have to get them on the street.
The entire drug war is a failure. The prisons are filled with drug users and sellers. Before the great drug war when opiates were legal there were many drug addicts. Probably medicating depression with their opiates. But they went about their business and no one knew who they were. Yes they were addicted but they did not have to steal to pay inflated prices for illegal drugs. Much of what we call the ravages of drug addiction are due to the criminal life style. The drugs before drug prohibition were cheap and readily available. And the entire usa was not addicted. It was a certain subset of people of responded to them. The irony is the were probably much better than what is being offered today.
Posted by inanimate peanut on February 3, 2010, at 15:33:30
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by bulldog2 on February 3, 2010, at 15:21:42
One interesting reason I think pharma companies are not trying hard to get new drugs in the USA is because they're focusing on the overseas market. There's a new book out called Crazy Like Us about how the US Drug Companies are just shipping the same old drugs to new markets and making tons of money. Why manufacture new drugs when you can just ship the old ones to Japan and even Argentina?
Posted by bulldog2 on February 3, 2010, at 15:35:05
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by bulldog2 on February 3, 2010, at 15:21:42
My prior post really was a stand alone and not response to inanimate peanut. Just my opinion why we don't see better drugs.
Posted by Sigismund on February 3, 2010, at 15:41:04
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by inanimate peanut on February 3, 2010, at 15:33:30
I wish they'd ship their WWII surplus to me.
They could even declare war on me if I refused to buy their opium.
Posted by bulldog2 on February 3, 2010, at 15:41:40
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by inanimate peanut on February 3, 2010, at 15:33:30
> One interesting reason I think pharma companies are not trying hard to get new drugs in the USA is because they're focusing on the overseas market. There's a new book out called Crazy Like Us about how the US Drug Companies are just shipping the same old drugs to new markets and making tons of money. Why manufacture new drugs when you can just ship the old ones to Japan and even Argentina?
Well there is a large market here waiting for better drugs.
Posted by Phillipa on February 3, 2010, at 19:57:31
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by bulldog2 on February 3, 2010, at 15:41:40
And if they are not good here are they better there? Maybe they have different brains? Meds don't always work and agree with peanut. Phillipa
Posted by Maxime on February 4, 2010, at 15:24:07
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option? » bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on February 3, 2010, at 19:57:31
It's certainly feeling like one for me these days. :(
Posted by Phillipa on February 4, 2010, at 20:01:15
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by Maxime on February 4, 2010, at 15:24:07
I kind of feel the same. Love Phillipa
Posted by Cherry Carver on February 7, 2010, at 9:51:32
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option? » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on February 1, 2010, at 18:41:54
Dilaudid is FABULOUS. I'd be a happy woman if I could take that all the time. It was the only effective pain-killer I received after my hysterectomy in 2006. It not only killed the pain, but got me mobile again. The nurses were pushing morphine, Demerol, and codeine (when they remembered to medicate me at all). None of that stuff worked. The pharmacist put me on Dilaudid finally. It got rid of the pain without making me high.
I don't know if it's a drug to which one would eventually develop a tolerance, but I never found out--they refused to prescribe it more than a few days. But it sure did the job.
Damn the DEA! Opioids are wonderful things.
> Link opiods work. Neighbor graduated from fentnyl patch to I think Dilaudid one and has vicodin for break through pain and she feels good. They work. Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on February 8, 2010, at 14:22:29
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by Cherry Carver on February 7, 2010, at 9:51:32
>Dilaudid is FABULOUS
It has a beautiful name to go along with a beautiful effect.
Posted by bulldog2 on February 8, 2010, at 18:20:10
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by Cherry Carver on February 7, 2010, at 9:51:32
> Dilaudid is FABULOUS. I'd be a happy woman if I could take that all the time. It was the only effective pain-killer I received after my hysterectomy in 2006. It not only killed the pain, but got me mobile again. The nurses were pushing morphine, Demerol, and codeine (when they remembered to medicate me at all). None of that stuff worked. The pharmacist put me on Dilaudid finally. It got rid of the pain without making me high.
>
> I don't know if it's a drug to which one would eventually develop a tolerance, but I never found out--they refused to prescribe it more than a few days. But it sure did the job.
>
> Damn the DEA! Opioids are wonderful things.
>
> > Link opiods work. Neighbor graduated from fentnyl patch to I think Dilaudid one and has vicodin for break through pain and she feels good. They work. Phillipa
>
>yes when I had my hip replacement they put me on morphine drip. That was not good enough to kill the pain. They than put me on dilaudid drip and that erased the pain.
You know what wierd is some opiates cause urine retentions and others do not. Percocet and oxycontin don't cause this problem were others slow things down to a dribble.
Posted by Cherry Carver on February 8, 2010, at 18:49:49
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option? » Cherry Carver, posted by Sigismund on February 8, 2010, at 14:22:29
It does, indeed! :)
> >Dilaudid is FABULOUS
>
> It has a beautiful name to go along with a beautiful effect.
Posted by Sigismund on February 8, 2010, at 20:20:20
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option? » Sigismund, posted by Cherry Carver on February 8, 2010, at 18:49:49
Laudamus te. Benedicimus te.
Adoramus te. Glorificamus te.
Posted by Cherry Carver on February 8, 2010, at 23:46:19
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option? » Cherry Carver, posted by Sigismund on February 8, 2010, at 20:20:20
Qui tollis peccata mundi, suscipe deprecationem nostram.
> Laudamus te. Benedicimus te.
> Adoramus te. Glorificamus te.
Posted by December15 on February 9, 2010, at 20:59:43
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option? » Sigismund, posted by Cherry Carver on February 8, 2010, at 23:46:19
This one really hit home for me. I'm going to give the Reader's Digest version of a fairly complicated situation but I'll be happy to answer questions if necessary.
About ten years ago someone very dear to me committed suicide. I was with him much of the evening but he didn't want me to be there when it happened. He wasn't depressed although I'm fairly certain he had ADHD and/or OCD. We were friends for years although the distance factor limited visits; this wasn't a sexual relationship, we just understood each other while most people saw as "interesting", "eccentric" and the like. He was one of the only people in my life I've ever known who loved me *without* sex, drama, et al.
Over the years he developed obsessive interests and fetishes, then grew bored and found something new - until he focused on guns. I knew of the obsession but hadn't a clue of the intensity, nor that he was funding all this illegally. He worked at a steel mill and was stealing barrels of alloys to sell. (This really *is* the short version <g>.)
One evening I received an email from him; "FBI came today. No way out. Sorry." I called and made him drive in to see if I could help him somehow but - I honestly couldn't think of anything. I would probably have done the same were the positions reversed. He had so many guns and so much ammo that the FBI had him classified as a threat to national security. He'd stolen well over $200,000 of alloy - they had video. He wouldn't have lasted a month in jail - skinny highstrung white boy with the street sense of a poodle puppy; he'd lost further employment at the only trade he knew, he'd been fingerprinted every time he bought a machine gun or the like so he couldn't run and he'd shamed his family.
I couldn't deny his truth, couldn't offer any alternatives. All I could do was to not let him die alone and promise to take care of his pet chinchilla afterward. He shot himself in his truck and I will never know whether I made the right decision or not. His family believes I killed him and stole his money because they couldn't fathom spending that much on guns. I still think about him for one reason or another every day; I miss him.
I do think suicide is an individual decision and the government has no right in most cases to grant or refuse permission. That being said I believe many people choose "a permanent solution to a temporary problem". No-one talks about it so they don't know that almost everyone thinks about suicide at some point - but what they want to kill is their life, their problems, not themselves.
But.....if anyone out there is thinking along this path, please try *everything* else first, including whatever it is you fear the most. You owe it to yourself...and to everyone you'll leave behind to live with your decision.
December
Posted by bulldog2 on February 10, 2010, at 17:48:39
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by December15 on February 9, 2010, at 20:59:43
I remember putting a beloved pet to sleep many years ago who was dying of cancer. She was near the end and we had tried everything.
The vet spoke it's a shame we can't do this for people. Her hand trembled as she filled the needle and afterwards I could see a tear in her eye. Perhaps its an easier decision to make for animals because their(animals) not consumed about questions about what happens after their death.
We are still consumed about the afterlife. So many of us fear death and what happens after we die. As long as we fear death we will cling to life long after it has become worthwhile or there is any quality to it. There was something about so called primitive cultures that allowed them to live in harmony with nature. They accepted death as part of the cyle of life and death. But we have disconnected ourselves emotionally from this cycle and I wonder if this is not part of our emotional distress. We live in a culture that stresses individuality but maybe that is not how we are meant to live. Maybe our culture makes us sick. Sometimes I look at the trees in my backyard. The leaves come and go every year. Maybe that is all we are and we have to accept that. Right now we are individuals cut off from everything and that is making us sick.
Posted by Sigismund on February 10, 2010, at 18:07:40
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by bulldog2 on February 10, 2010, at 17:48:39
Beautifully put, Bulldog
>We are still consumed about the afterlife. So many of us fear death and what happens after we die. As long as we fear death we will cling to life long after it has become worthwhile or there is any quality to it. There was something about so called primitive cultures that allowed them to live in harmony with nature. They accepted death as part of the cyle of life and death. But we have disconnected ourselves emotionally from this cycle and I wonder if this is not part of our emotional distress.
Especially this.....
>We live in a culture that stresses individuality but maybe that is not how we are meant to live. Maybe our culture makes us sick. Sometimes I look at the trees in my backyard. The leaves come and go every year. Maybe that is all we are and we have to accept that. Right now we are individuals cut off from everything and that is making us sick.
That's my opinion, anyway.
Posted by emmanuel98 on February 10, 2010, at 18:47:30
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option? » bulldog2, posted by Sigismund on February 10, 2010, at 18:07:40
I tried and failed to kill myself last summer. My husband begged me to go in the hospital and I didn't want to . I just wanted to die. I ended up spending nearly a month in the hospital and started on parnate which completely took my depression away. Now I can't believe I tried to commit suicide. Suicide really is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I would try to talk anyone I knew out of it, at least until they had explored every possible treatment for depression.
Posted by bulldog2 on February 11, 2010, at 9:14:21
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by emmanuel98 on February 10, 2010, at 18:47:30
> I tried and failed to kill myself last summer. My husband begged me to go in the hospital and I didn't want to . I just wanted to die. I ended up spending nearly a month in the hospital and started on parnate which completely took my depression away. Now I can't believe I tried to commit suicide. Suicide really is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I would try to talk anyone I knew out of it, at least until they had explored every possible treatment for depression.
I'm glad your still with us and things worked out. Depression is sometimes not temporary.
Posted by Phillipa on February 11, 2010, at 20:32:25
In reply to Re: Is Suicide Ever A Viable Option?, posted by bulldog2 on February 11, 2010, at 9:14:21
I sense a feeling of defeat? Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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