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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on January 29, 2010, at 18:41:54
Ugh, does anyone know that this medication at low doses causes depression, just this sadness. What's going on is my doctor finally got the results and confirmed that I had ADHD with evidence from a SPECT scan, and actually there was more evidence in that, "99%" possiblility, yet also it confirmed Asperger's disfunction, and that is so humilating because I don't know why it wasnt picked up when I was younger, I do know that I had a hard time to get along with people and I've alway's had a problem with that, understanding like ... "social cues" and saying stuff that was offending and I didnt realize it. Alot of people just "mark'd" off there list.
Anyway's I hope that I will go to 50mg and then 70mg. See I was taking 140mg [2 70's] about a year and half ago, but it had to be restarted after all these tests.
Anyone?
Posted by LongRoad on January 29, 2010, at 20:17:20
In reply to Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by rjlockhart04-08 on January 29, 2010, at 18:41:54
> Ugh, does anyone know that this medication at low doses causes depression, just this sadness. What's going on is my doctor finally got the results and confirmed that I had ADHD with evidence from a SPECT scan, and actually there was more evidence in that, "99%" possiblility, yet also it confirmed Asperger's disfunction, and that is so humilating because I don't know why it wasnt picked up when I was younger, I do know that I had a hard time to get along with people and I've alway's had a problem with that, understanding like ... "social cues" and saying stuff that was offending and I didnt realize it. Alot of people just "mark'd" off there list.
>
> Anyway's I hope that I will go to 50mg and then 70mg. See I was taking 140mg [2 70's] about a year and half ago, but it had to be restarted after all these tests.
>
> Anyone?I had a similar reaction on adderall xr. Dopamine is a tricky neurotransmitter. I used to just think more = better. Not true at all. Some meds block it and some make it last longer in your system - but neither necessarily does what you might think. But I know that if levels aren't right then there can be akathisia, which for me felt like an emotional straightjacket - truly awful... like nothing is quite right and you want to do a million things and at the same time you want to do nothing at all.
I'd think about asking for one of the other stims if you feel really bad on this. My 2 cents worth - hang in there.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on January 30, 2010, at 16:39:14
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by LongRoad on January 29, 2010, at 20:17:20
Adderall had the same effect on me, it just had some side effect's from the "levoamphetamine" that's in adderall because it's 75% d-amphetamine and 25% l-amphetamine which acts more as a body stimulant. That's why adderall gives you more of a "buzz" than some of the other amphetamine medications.
30mg of Vyvanse is around roughly 8.5 mg dextroamphetamine in the effect's. I read on the comparison chart, it's around about 10mg of Adderall. I just hope that I get on correct dose, see some doses "zoned" me out, kinda wierd it's usally the low doses that cause depression because they seem to "slow" the dopamine transmission, yet enhance more of focus. High doses increase the dopamine flow, yet also they can disturb emotions after a while, you basically turn into a "emotional straigtjaket" it just stimulates too much I think, yet you can adapt to it. I was taking 2 70mg's when I took Vyvanse before...when it first started working it defintly improved mood, but also it would disturb emotions, yet I adapted to it. I alway's just could not stand the "slow" crash, it had. Dexedrine and Adderall wear off pretty quick, Vyvanse wear's off "slow", just like it start to work "slow", and it's unpleasant.
Well, the usall starter thing is they start with 30mg, 50mg, then 70mg. My mother just doesnt want to "esculate" the dose, yet the effective dose is only found when it's adjusted.
Thanks!
rj
Posted by Helena24 on February 1, 2010, at 7:01:28
In reply to Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by rjlockhart04-08 on January 29, 2010, at 18:41:54
In my oppinion all these continuous-release formulations suck!
They are createt for that they can't enduce any euphoria.
Is there someone who can prove to me 100% that it is NOT the euphoria that makes add-sufferers function and feel better?
It's not only a focus-thing.
All ADDers have serious emotional issues,that are in fact part of their desease amd not just a ''comobirdity''.For many people immedeate-release formulations like Ritalin or Dexedrine do improve functionality better than these new,exspensive,NOT euphoriant pills and patches.
Maybe this is just BECAUSE the mild euphoria MAKES THE JOB,at least for a major part of the sufferers?
What do you think?
Posted by floatingbridge on February 1, 2010, at 19:08:09
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by Helena24 on February 1, 2010, at 7:01:28
Helena,
Brand spansules dex work for me, but not as long as they are supposed to. I can see why meds are engineered to control euphoria; however, not everyone has the same needs or response.
May I ask how long you've been taking a stim (my assumption )? I have had a difficult time getting information on long term efficacy. My dosage has also
increased over time--worrisome. I have been thinking about vayaanse.fb
Posted by floatingbridge on February 1, 2010, at 19:21:52
In reply to Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by rjlockhart04-08 on January 29, 2010, at 18:41:54
RJ,
Some very dear, smart people I know have asperger's-- nothing to be ashamed of at all. I hear you when you talk about the delayed detection, though, and delayed help. That makes it rough.
Maybe the higher dose will help. Not enough would make me feel yucky. Sorry you're not feeling well. I hope the key is on the dose.
Best,
fb
Posted by Helena24 on February 2, 2010, at 12:58:09
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant... » Helena24, posted by floatingbridge on February 1, 2010, at 19:08:09
@ floatingbridge:
I suffered all my life with undiagnosed add and depression.
In my country,Greece,it's impossible to get meds like Dexedrine,Ritalin is almost never prescribed to children or adults.
There is only one uneversity-clinic in whole Greece,that prescribes Concerta to a small number of adults.From my early twenties I went from doctor to doctor and there wasn't even the possibility to get drugs like desipramine or bupropion at that time.
After many years and out of dead dispair,I purchased Ritalin over the internet illegally.This was about 4 years ago.
I never took it continuosly over 2-3 weeks and in summary not more then 3 months.
Then they started to send me placebos and I spend nearly 1000 Euro's out of dispair and need to get the real stuff.Then I gave up.The real Ritalin worked like a miracal drug for me.
It wiped away all my add-symptoms and depression at once.
Only at the evenings I became a little moody but that was nothing to my ''baseline-situation''.
I'm sorry I can't give you any info's on long term efficacy.About a year ago I finally found a doctor who prescribed me Concerta.
I took it for a month or so.
I made me depressed and was much less effective than Ritalin.
I think it made my add even worse.
I wanted to add an antidepressant to help with the worsening of my depression and agitation due to Concerta,but the doc said that he only prescribes it as a single medication and doesn't want to deal with the responsibility to prescribe it in combination.
There wasn't any kind of doctor-patient trusting relationship,because I lived in another city and had to take a long journey to see the doctor.Sorry that I write so much...I want to send a massage how bad the situation is here for adult ADD-sufferes.
Sorry that I'm a bit out of topic.
This issue makes me very emotional.
To have this condition makes me suffer so much!
To KNOW that there are drugs that could make my live worthy of living and I can't have them because of stupid european laws and greek doctors' mentality drives me almost nuts!I take modafinil now with tianeptine and benzos,wich make my situation somewhat bearable...
I was reading an article that said the company that produces Vyvanse tries to get approval in Europe.I hope we will have it someday here in Greece,but I'm pessimistic for my personal situation since I'm already in my early thirties,and when it gets approved in Greece,after ten years or so,no doctor will prescribe it to me...to risky,to old,heart risk,bla bla,you know...
I'm sorry for the essay...
Helena
Posted by Helena24 on February 2, 2010, at 13:02:54
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by Helena24 on February 2, 2010, at 12:58:09
I ment "deep dispair" not ''dead dispair''.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on February 2, 2010, at 13:32:40
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by Helena24 on February 1, 2010, at 7:01:28
Vyvanse doesnt produce...I would say "euphoria" yet it still can be abused by repeated dosing to reach higher mental alertness. Adderall/Dexedrine usally work in the form in that they release "immidiate", dexedrine spansules "mediumly" release not as fast, but not as slow as Vyvanse.
I think the "stimulantion" that stimulants provide "stimulate" a center that is not stimulanted, increased socialablity, activity, yet lower doses reduce activity and increase concentration on one thing. Higher doses cause "multitasking" if you "multitask" or not, it's just rapid dopamine stimulation that causes this.
Ritilin causes I think more of a "high" like cocaine, and adderall is more like "speed" because it's amphetamine.
Increased dopamine activity causes more pleasure in things.
Thanks for your post!
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on February 2, 2010, at 13:35:37
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant... » Helena24, posted by floatingbridge on February 1, 2010, at 19:08:09
Vyvanse is good choice, yet dex spansules are more noticable in the effect's. Tablet's are more like "go-pills". Vyvanse releases slowly....yet it will provide concentration by "slowly" releasing d-amphetamine in concentrated amounts.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on February 2, 2010, at 13:39:59
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant... » rjlockhart04-08, posted by floatingbridge on February 1, 2010, at 19:21:52
I just have to work on the dose with my doctor, it may take a while to get on "correct" dose, Vyvanse/Dex Spansules are similar, it's just Vyvanse takes longer to start working, usally an hour.
Just with asp...it makes things seems depressing and then to the point of misery because of isolated behavior/staying inside/ afraid/ because of knowing/ impending rejection to happen in some cases. Yet that's only a belief, you can't have sympathy from people...[in my case] you just have to accept what the circumstance is, in mental way's of thinking/relating/etc...
Thanks you much for your response back.
rj
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on February 2, 2010, at 13:44:33
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by Helena24 on February 2, 2010, at 12:58:09
Helena,
Is Cylert avaviable in Greece? it's a good medication I've read, but it's BAD for the liver in US studies.
Just trying to help.
Posted by floatingbridge on February 2, 2010, at 13:53:43
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by rjlockhart04-08 on February 2, 2010, at 13:39:59
Hey RJ,
I might ask my doc about vayaanse--thanks for the feedback!
I have social anxiety--a lot of social stuff is learning skills that some of us failed to acquire--for whatever reason.
best,
fb
Posted by floatingbridge on February 2, 2010, at 13:57:00
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by Helena24 on February 2, 2010, at 12:58:09
Helena,
Not being able to get the meds you need is terrible! I'm sorry.
I had a similar response to strattera, another adhd medication. Worsened my depression and my add!
I've heard elsewhere that concerta doesn't work for everyone.
Thank you for your post,
fb
Posted by Helena24 on February 2, 2010, at 14:49:07
In reply to Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by rjlockhart04-08 on January 29, 2010, at 18:41:54
No Cylert.
Ritalin must be imported by national pharmacy,if prescribed,and needs a special ''doctors opinion note'',or justification,a lot of paper-work for a doctor,therefore never prescribed in practice.Only very few doctors have the special prescriptions to prescribe Concerta,wich doesn't need a ''note''.
These are the only stimulant medications available in Greece,besides Modafinil of course,that is not considered a ''real'' stimulant.
Stratterra,wich paradoxically can be bought practically over the counter here,made me worse too.
But I was taking a big dose straight from the beginning (80mg).
I had a somewhat good respond to desipramine in very small dosage 25mg (I traveled to another country to get it),that disappeared with higher dosages.
I'm wondering if the therapeutic-window less-is-more thing,that happens with desipramine is also the case with atomoxetine,since it has a similar mechanism of action.
Has anybody tried it in very low dosages to tell?
(I have a theory that norepinephrine and dopamine act synergistically in the frontal cortex,BUT MAYBE NE antagonizes DA in the limbic system and therefore much NE in the striatum makes the so called ''deep limbic add'' worse,due to lower dopamine.
It's only my thought,I didn't read about this anywhere.
So if a Norepinephrine-Reuptake-Inhibitor is taken in high enough dosages to have effects to the striatal NE,MAYBE this lowers DA activity in this area?)
Sorry again for the off topic....any experts on this?
Posted by Sigismund on February 2, 2010, at 14:56:07
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by Helena24 on February 1, 2010, at 7:01:28
>Is there someone who can prove to me 100% that it is NOT the euphoria that makes add-sufferers function and feel better?
Good point
Posted by floatingbridge on February 2, 2010, at 15:31:39
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by Helena24 on February 2, 2010, at 14:49:07
Helena,
I hope someone comments on your theory--it's interesting but over my head.
I gave a low dose of strattera a fair trial, using between 20-40. At 60, I was in misery. Even 20 didn't help.
fb
Posted by Helena24 on February 2, 2010, at 15:42:20
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by Sigismund on February 2, 2010, at 14:56:07
Thank you fb!
It is out of topic anyway.
The issue here should be helping "rj"...
I hope more people who know about vyvanse will respond to help him(?).
My comment was not right placed.
I will open another topic about it someday.
Thanks for all of your responses!
Posted by longroad on February 2, 2010, at 15:47:22
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant... » Helena24, posted by floatingbridge on February 2, 2010, at 15:31:39
> Helena,
>
> I hope someone comments on your theory--it's interesting but over my head.
>
> I gave a low dose of strattera a fair trial, using between 20-40. At 60, I was in misery. Even 20 didn't help.
>
> fbAs I mentioned before, I definitely think there is some crossover between euphoria and increased ability to focus and function.
But I don't believe it's strictly euphoria or they would prescribe MDMA or Heroin or Cocaine for ADHD.
Dopamine apparently plays a big role in focus, but it also governs motivation and reward. With this in mind, I'd say that you have to address drive/motivation/desire to address attention. And I'd say that these attributes can be related to euphoric feelings - I find it hard to pay attention to something uninteresting when I feel bad because the subject feels pointless.
I don't know if Ritalin has ever helped you, but the generic version is dirt cheap in the US. I will tread lightly here, because I don't know all the specifics, but I've read that with a prescription, there are legal ways to buy certain meds overseas. Maybe someone who knows the law can chime in here...
Posted by Helena24 on February 2, 2010, at 15:58:54
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by longroad on February 2, 2010, at 15:47:22
<<but I've read that with a prescription, there are legal ways to buy certain meds overseas>>
Yes,Ritalin brand helped me very much.
The problem is that no greek doctor will prescribe it...
I heard that generic Ritalin doesn't work so good,but for me it makes no difference because I can't get it either.I experience the same trouble with motivation/drive and reward.
When I'm interested in something I can focus endless hours on it (for example my favorite series ''lost'':).
But when I have no motivation I get literally nothing done and people think I'm stupid,lazy etc...I think ADD is not really a lack of concentration/focus but a lack of motivation disorder.
Posted by longroad on February 22, 2010, at 12:56:29
In reply to Re: Vyvanse 30mg, not pleasant..., posted by Helena24 on February 2, 2010, at 15:58:54
Ok, so despite this thread, I am currently trying 30mg of Vyvanse on the advice of a couple friends. Doctor doesn't have experience with it yet, but was willing to let me try it.
Ritalin had been good for focus, but over not too long of a period of being on it (a few months), it left me wanting to isolate even more than I normally would (already an issue, i.e.).
I was told by the friends that it was more consistent than other forms of slow-release stims and had less of a crash. The first day had me horribly irritable in the evening for about 30-45 min. I think it was a crash - however did not experience that on day 2.
This is day 3. I feel calm, but not particularly better-focused - kind of spacey if anything. I have the inattentive type ADD, so hyperactivity has never been an issue - actually, the lack of motivation/lethargy is the problem.
Obviously everyone's different, so I can't expect a universal answer. I'm just trying to get a sense of the possibilities - like has anyone started out with an experience that ended up getting better as time went on (maybe though a dose change or even just adjustment time)?
This is the end of the thread.
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