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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 11:32:19
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2010, at 19:48:50
I'm still having excellent results with Stablon. I'm up to two 12.5 mg tabs. twice daily and am going to increase by adding half a tab in the evening. So far headaches I had initially have improved, but I still have very vivid dreams.
I saw a Gastrointerologist today and gave him a print out on Tianeptine. He was very interested and is going to see if he can learn more from his colleagues.
He is of the opinion that the intestinal contractions and pressure I've been having are from anxiety and depression related to post accute withdrawl syndrome after quitting opiate pain meds. It's hard to believe that 8 mos. after quitting them I'm still having such severe symptoms and that they would be getting worse, but what can I do? I have hit a dead end again. The only other possible cause of all of my symptoms together is so rare and unlikely that the Dr. isn't even considering it as a possibility.
So while I am no more satisfied with my diagnosis, I am very happy to be able to effectively treat the symptoms. Hooray for that!
Posted by highhatsize on January 11, 2010, at 14:17:02
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 11:32:19
> He is of the opinion that the intestinal contractions and pressure I've been having are from anxiety and depression related to post accute withdrawl syndrome after quitting opiate pain meds.<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the risk of ridicule for proposing a simple solution to diarrhea that you have probably already tried, I have found that Pepto-Bismol taken prophylactically prevents symptoms due to the discontinuation of narcotics. When I have to go out, I take a slug of Pepto-Bismol and have been untroubled. If I am at home for a few days without taking it, I can expect a period of frequent and urgent bowel movements. It has been about four months since I discontinued Norco (10 mg. hydrocodone / 325 mg. apap) and my symptoms have remained constant. I don't expect them to improve anytime soon, but the Pepto makes them manageable.
I don't think that the diarrhea has a psychological cause. Rather, I think that my body adjusted over time to the narcotic's depressive effect on peristalsis. In order to keep digestion moving, peristaltic contractions became stronger. Now, in the absence of the inhibiting narcotic, the contractions are too powerful.
Parenthetically, thanks for the update on Stablon. I am following your progress attentively. If this remedy has legs, I will discuss it with friends for whom the SSRIs are effective but which have debilitating sexual side effects.
- highhatsize
Posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 16:50:29
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by highhatsize on January 11, 2010, at 14:17:02
Thanks for the suggestion of Pepto. I really don't have troublesome diarrhea, just occasional. It's the bizzare sensation of pressure in my extreme lower bowel and feeling like my guts are being squeezed that really bothers me. This hasn't been a problem until recently. I went through withdrawl from Norco without much physical discomfort at all since I did a very slow taper. It was the depression, anxiety and complete loss of motivation that were the pits. It's been about 9 months now and I feel like it's all getting worse instead of better...that is until stablon. And another benefit of the Stablon is my chronic cough and wheezing are better too. Not gone, but better.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 11, 2010, at 19:13:47
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » floatingbridge, posted by casse on January 7, 2010, at 0:09:12
Casse,
Thanks for all the information--never to much! I am curious about LDN and have been for some time. I don't know which way my recovery will take, so I'm gathering notes along the way. I'm glad your results are positive besides the gastrointestinal issues. Something as simple as pepto working would be great.
Apologies for the delayed reply,
fb
Posted by Phillipa on January 11, 2010, at 19:48:05
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 11:32:19
Casse that is great. So your're responding to the stablon? I'm encouraged. Love Phillipa
Posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 21:07:40
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by Phillipa on January 11, 2010, at 19:48:05
Yes the stablon is working well for me. Especially as an anxiolytic. It's antidepressant effect isn't as profound, but it certainly helps as my depression is exacerbated by anxiety. I'm able to think about the future in a positive way at least part of the time, a huge improvement over how I felt before I started it. I really think I need to get up to taking all 3 doses every day and avoid break-through anxiety. I've been hesitant because of the stimulating effect and vivid dreams. I'm leery of Benzo's, but I guess I should take my NP's advice and use the Ativan. I didn't want to go that route because some of the folks who have used benzo's and stablon concurrently haven't liked the combination. Oh well, the ativan is only temporary anyway. I only have enough for about a month. Might as well use it.
Posted by Phillipa on January 11, 2010, at 21:30:06
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » Phillipa, posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 21:07:40
Casse when you speak of breakthrough anxiety how bad is it. I wonder if it could be compared to pain as they say medicate before the pain begins? Love Phillipa
Posted by casse on January 12, 2010, at 17:50:40
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by Phillipa on January 11, 2010, at 21:30:06
Yes, it's exactly like avoiding breakthrough pain. My NP said that in order to successfully treat both anxiety and depression, breakthrough symptoms must be avoided. That makes sense. For me, both conditions are self perpetuating. The only times I have ever had remission is when I was able to keep the worst of symptoms at bay for several months. Using xanax always worked for me in the past, but now I've got a Pdoc who is adamantly against benzos. So I had to suffer until I found out about Stablon. My Pdoc is going to have a cow when he finds out I have Ativan. I get my mental health care paid by the county, so I have to accept whatever care they offer. I've tried to get a different pdoc, but they won't allow it. What that has meant for me until I found Stablon is SUFFER. It's very hard not to be bitter.
Posted by tea on January 12, 2010, at 18:20:28
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by floatingbridge on January 4, 2010, at 19:52:25
> Casse,
>
> Wow. Good luck--! May I ask what lead you to LDN--and how did you get it prescribed? And the Stablon--mail order?
>
> fb
>
Hi, I just came across this thread looking for personal experiences on ldn, especially of folk who also have other "problems" be it autoimmune, allergies, depression or anxiety etc.I think I read that ldn can be purchased in capsule form 4.5mg OTC (no scrip required ) in the US? I could be wrong. It's probably cheaper to buy the full strength naltrexone via mail order though. Unsure but may be worth looking into if you are interested in trying it.
CasseI was looking for the thread where you descrivbed your ldn experiences to floatingbridge.. didn't find
To me the main benefit of forums is to share our own experiences on drugs, and also if there was anything that helped with the side effects :)
Posted by floatingbridge on January 12, 2010, at 18:44:35
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » floatingbridge, posted by casse on January 7, 2010, at 0:09:12
Tea, here it is--very informative.
:-)> Yes, I got the Stablon that way.
>
> As for the LDN, I had taken opiates for chronic pain for almost 3 years before finding alternative non-medicinal treatment. When I quit taking them, I had some awful withdrawl symptoms. Numbness, loss of coordination, tingling, and felt like my chest was being squeezed all of the time. This went on for several months before I was refered to a neurologist with suspected MS. In the meantime, I went online and started reading up on LDN. I had also heard about it while trying to find out about opiate withdrawl. Some guy has a blog online where he claims that endorphin deficiency leads to depression and subsequent opiate abuse for some. He suggested that LDN might be efficacious for depression if that is the case. I'm not endorsing his theory
> (the role of natural endorphins and enkephalins on mood is not that simple ), but it led me on my search. Since then I've read volumes of info about it and also tried to learn as much about other's experiences with it as possible. Important to me, since it's such a grass roots therapy and there are only a couple of real "experts" on it in the world. Foremost is Dr. Ian Zagon. But being the good research scientist, he sticks to the facts as they relate to his research. So with regard to what conditions LDN can help treat, and at what dose, even this particular expert does not say. But I digress...
>
> I still don't have an MS diagnosis. I probably don't have it, and unless I have symptoms that threaten my life I'm going to forget about it. I ran out of money and insurance. But I decided to try the LDN since it is inexpensive and safe to use even prophylactically. My pdoc was kind enough to prescribe it, but not understanding (or necessarily agreeing with ) how I intended to use it, he prescribed 50 mg. My hope was that it would help with both depression and relieve the physical symptoms.
>
> So I've compounded it at home since I started using it. I get syrups from my pharmacist and make a suspension. I don't know that this method is a better way of " diluting", but the pharmacist thought it would be more stable.
>
> The LDN DID give me more energy at the 1.5 mg dose I took at first, and I think that may have caused me to be more active. That in turn can stimulate serotonin production and enhance mood (and I believe it did). But it also made me feel agitated. That made my anxiety worse. So I've experimented with different dosages trying to find tolerance. I dropped my dose way down to .25 mg and started over, taking it every other night. I definitely feel even that small amount. I have very vivid dreams the nights I take it, and feel slightly irritable the following morning. But I intend to work up to 1.5 mg again, as that is regarded as the minimally effective dose. Now that I'm enjoying success with the effects Stablon is having on my anxiety symptoms, I'm encouraged to increase my dosage of LDN again. My sister recently found out she has breast cancer, so a prophylactic that might help prevent cancer is even more important to me now!
>
> I hope this isn't too much information. I do tend to go on....
>
Posted by floatingbridge on January 12, 2010, at 19:03:34
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » Phillipa, posted by casse on January 12, 2010, at 17:50:40
Casse, so you weren't able to find away around bemzos. Sigh. Though you are getting anxiety relief on the Stablon, though not complete? As an anxiety sufferer I've used Xanax for years, both instant and xr. Klonopin can work well for break-though anxiety, however, I found it a bit of a depressive. I retried it recently and was dismayed to find that same effect .
Amazingly, I've been able to keep Xanax tolerance at a reasonably low rate for about 10 years. Recently, not so, and anxiety attacks have increased in frequency and acuity.
I agree w/ you and Phillips about the anxieties being similar to a pain syndrome. I wish I, or a doctor had figured this out years ago. Experiencing anxiety and being at it's mercy truly exacerbates my depression. So here I am. :-)
Does LDN help w/ anxiety?
kind regards,
fb
> Yes, it's exactly like avoiding breakthrough pain. My NP said that in order to successfully treat both anxiety and depression, breakthrough symptoms must be avoided. That makes sense. For me, both conditions are self perpetuating. The only times I have ever had remission is when I was able to keep the worst of symptoms at bay for several months. Using xanax always worked for me in the past, but now I've got a Pdoc who is adamantly against benzos. So I had to suffer until I found out about Stablon. My Pdoc is going to have a cow when he finds out I have Ativan. I get my mental health care paid by the county, so I have to accept whatever care they offer. I've tried to get a different pdoc, but they won't allow it. What that has meant for me until I found Stablon is SUFFER. It's very hard not to be bitter.
Posted by casse on January 13, 2010, at 21:25:38
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by floatingbridge on January 12, 2010, at 19:03:34
I got some Ativan from my NP, but the Pdoc won't prescribe them. They work very well for me, but the psychonaut thinks that they should only be used by anyone for 2 weeks or less.
As for LDN and anxiety, It might help indirectly where chronic illness causes the anxiety. When LDN is able to effectively treat that illness, the relief of feeling better or in control of ones health can be very calming. But as a direct treatment for anxiety I would have to say no.
I get agitated when I use it. Opiate meds also cause me to feel agitated and irritable. But everyone is different, and LDN is so inexpesive and safe, I would suggest anyone try it, as long as they do not use opiates for pain or any herbs that bind at opiate receptors, Black Cohosh for one.
Posted by tea on January 14, 2010, at 0:07:09
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » floatingbridge, posted by casse on January 13, 2010, at 21:25:38
or any herbs that bind at opiate receptors, Black Cohosh for one.
>
>really? didn't know thanks. I do occasionally try that, but very infrequently as I don't think it works. I think Reminfemin is Black cohosh too? must check. I was thinking of trying that agian...but I wont if it is.
Posted by casse on January 14, 2010, at 21:21:09
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by tea on January 14, 2010, at 0:07:09
Yes, Black Cohosh is just one of many. Someone on the lowdosenaltrexone yahoo group posted a more comprehensive list months ago. I have been banned from that group since then, so I can't find it in the archives. Maybe you could join and ask about that particular list. There are some wonderful people on that list who are open hearted and open minded and would love to help if they can. Just ask them.
I have done some searches personally and found some more herbs to aviod, but I'm kind of preoccupied with other concerns at the moment. It's not difficult to find information on the web. I made a personal study of herbal medicine a few years ago, but the information available on the internet is so much easier to access now.
Good health to you,
Casse
Posted by tea on January 15, 2010, at 0:10:38
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » tea, posted by casse on January 14, 2010, at 21:21:09
Posted by casse on January 19, 2010, at 14:09:52
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by floatingbridge on January 11, 2010, at 19:13:47
I just wanted to update my experience with Stablon ( tianeptine ).
I't s been almost 3 weeks since I started it and my experience continues to be positive. I am taking 12.5 mg tid. I don't have the energy that it gave me the first few days on it, but it still helps with symptoms I have attributed to anxiety. However, there is some question now about whether my GI symptoms are caused by anxiety or a strictly somatic problem. Those were worsening before I started the stablon, and between doses, the sensations come back. I started having rectal bleeding along with the other GI symptoms, and am having a colonoscopy to see what's going on. It could turn out that all my symptoms, including depression are related to a GI problem. Wouldn't that be nice to know! Especially if it can be fixed.
I told my GI about the tianeptine and he was really interested in it. He said it wasn't surprising that it helped with the GI issues. He said that antidepressants are often used to treat symptoms of bowel disorders, as serotonin is proliferate in the gut. But he couldn't explain why they help...what's up with that?
Anyhoo... I am less depressed, my wheezing and coughing is almost completely under control, and the GI discomfort is much less troublesome.
I miss the initial stimulating effect I experienced though. I have been tempted to take an additional dose, but haven't. I want to see what the recommended dose will do over time. So far I'm not disappointed with the tianeptine. Even if it only helps some of my symptoms it's worth taking. They were so debilitating.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 19, 2010, at 15:30:37
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? Stablon, posted by casse on January 19, 2010, at 14:09:52
Thanks for the update, Casse. Glad to know your mood is still good--. Let's hope the colonoscophy results help.
Good luck!
Posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2010, at 19:48:23
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? Stablon » casse, posted by floatingbridge on January 19, 2010, at 15:30:37
Cassee please post results. Love Phillipa
Posted by tea on January 20, 2010, at 12:55:25
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? Stablon, posted by casse on January 19, 2010, at 14:09:52
He said that antidepressants are often used to treat symptoms of bowel disorders, as serotonin is proliferate in the gut. But he couldn't explain why they help...what's up with that?
>
> Anyhoo... I am less depressed, my wheezing and coughing is almost completely under control, and the GI discomfort is much less troublesome.
>
> I miss the initial stimulating effect I experienced though. I have been tempted to take an additional dose, but haven't. I want to see what the recommended dose will do over time. So far I'm not disappointed with the tianeptine. Even if it only helps some of my symptoms it's worth taking. They were so debilitating.Thanks for the update Casse.
I knew about the serotonin being proliferate in the gut, and confirmed in me whenever I started any antiD with vomiting etc :)
I've had some wheezing and coughing since my last attempt at ldn, but attributed it to my thryoid meds not being compounded(I know that povidone causes a mild asthma as do some other 'inert" fillers- body reacts to the "inert" bit and attacks it I suppose).
I'm wondering now as mine is lifting I think since stopping the ldn if perhaps the ldn was a cause of the asthma(tight chest felt yesrtady by osteopath, and "hard" to breathe as well as the wheeze on exertion), my cough has gone since stopping and the asthma appears to be lifting? Just wondered if you can time your improvement also to the ceasing of the ldn? Also were you on compounded ldn or the tablets. if tablets, mine were from India (Revia I think?). Just wondered if its the fillers also.
Good luck with any op you may need.
I have never had anything resembling GI symptoms myself, although I felt a pain in my intestines until my op last year, and difficulty with constipation... they looked Ok at least from the outside when they opened me up..I've lotsa lovely photos, LOL, and strnagely whatever pushing occurred in the op stopped the problem , no idea ?
Good luck with everything,
tea
Posted by floatingbridge on January 20, 2010, at 13:13:37
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? Stablon, posted by tea on January 20, 2010, at 12:55:25
Tea, good questions.
fb
Posted by casse on January 20, 2010, at 18:23:26
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? Stablon, posted by tea on January 20, 2010, at 12:55:25
I've never heard of wheezing or any other asthmatic symptoms being side effects of LDN. As for me, I didn't notice any improvement with asthmatic symptoms when I stopped LDN. It wasn't until 30-40 minutes after the first dose of Stablon that I had that relief. It was like magic, and every morning, soon after I take it, my wheezing stops. If I keep my doses regular during the day ( 5 hours apart ), the wheezing doesn't return. It's just after the overnight break from Stablon that I feel the tightness and wheeze and cough.
As for how I take LDN, I made a compounded suspension with a pulverized 50 mg tablet that was rx'd by my pdoc. I used 50 ml of Oral Plus and 50 ml of Oral Sweet ( from the pharmacy ) and made a suspension that yields .5mg pr 1ml.I think that when I resume LDN therapy I'll use distilled water instead, as Elroy says that the fillers in a tablet can be harmful in certain bowel disorders. The suspension solution I make does not allow for the fillers to settle as water would. With my recent GI issues there's no reason to take a chance...plus it's less costly. The syrups cost about $5.00 US a month.
Posted by tea on January 20, 2010, at 21:34:43
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? Stablon » tea, posted by casse on January 20, 2010, at 18:23:26
Thanks Casse, I'll rule it out then for now:) Its gotta be either the thyroid meds (fillers done it before), or the new whey powder I've bought. Will change both and see.
Looks like there are some new drugs different enough to provide some hope about , like Stablon.
tea
Posted by Ernie D. on January 28, 2010, at 16:34:21
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? Stablon » casse, posted by tea on January 20, 2010, at 21:34:43
Hi. I am new to this board and I have read the many postings about Stablon both good and bad. Based on my research, I decided that this drug is a good choice to treat my generalized anxiety disorder.
I am currently taking 300mg of Lamical and I am now on my fourth day of taking Stablon. Nothing really to report good or bad. Can someone who is taking it tell me about how long it will take to feel some sort of effect from this medication?
Posted by Deneb on January 29, 2010, at 22:03:26
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? Stablon, posted by Ernie D. on January 28, 2010, at 16:34:21
Hi Ernie D!
Welcome to Psycho-Babble! Thanks for posting! I hope someone can give you some feedback about Stablon.
I do know that the effects of medications can vary greatly from person to person. I hope it works for you!
Deneb
Posted by casse on February 5, 2010, at 17:07:58
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? Stablon, posted by Ernie D. on January 28, 2010, at 16:34:21
Hi Ernie,
I felt a difference almost immediately. I was experiencing some pretty distressing physical symptoms, wheezing, diarrhea, abdominal pain and cramping, and the Stablon helped within minutes of the first doze of half a 12.5mg tablet.
I have been using the generic tianeptine (Tynept) for almost 5 weeks and still feel much better on it than I did before. I do have breakthrough symptoms if I forget to take my next dose within 6 hours though. I am currently taking 12.5 mg. three times daily.
Here is some information about drug interactions I got with my last order. It contains some information I had not seen on any of the websites and I think it's important to know.
Casse
WARNING: YOU MUST CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR BEFORE USING ANY MEDICATION.
Interactions between your selected drugs
trazodone ⇔ Tianeptine
Applies to: trazodone, Stablon (Tianeptine)
MONITOR CLOSELY: Concomitant use of agents with serotonergic activity such as serotonin reuptake inhibitors, monoamine oxidase inhibitors, tricyclic antidepressants, 5-HT1 receptor agonists, ergot alkaloids, lithium, St. John's wort, phenylpiperidine opioids, dextromethorphan, and tryptophan may potentiate the risk of serotonin syndrome, which is a rare but serious and potentially fatal condition thought to result from hyperstimulation of brainstem 5-HT1A and 2A receptors. Symptoms of the serotonin syndrome may include mental status changes such as irritability, altered consciousness, confusion, hallucinations, and coma; autonomic dysfunction such as tachycardia, hyperthermia, diaphoresis, shivering, blood pressure lability, and mydriasis; neuromuscular abnormalities such as hyperreflexia, myoclonus, tremor, rigidity, and ataxia; and gastrointestinal symptoms such as abdominal cramping, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea.MANAGEMENT: In general, the concomitant use of multiple serotonergic agents should be avoided if possible, or otherwise approached with caution if potential benefit is deemed to outweigh the risk. Patients should be closely monitored for symptoms of the serotonin syndrome during treatment. Particular caution is advised when increasing the dosages of these agents. The potential risk for serotonin syndrome should be considered even when administering serotonergic agents sequentially, as some agents may demonstrate a prolonged elimination half-life. For example, a 5-week washout period is recommended following use of fluoxetine before administering another serotonergic agent. If serotonin syndrome develops or is suspected during the course of therapy, all serotonergic agents should be discontinued immediately and supportive care rendered as necessary. Moderately ill patients may also benefit from the administration of a serotonin antagonist (e.g., cyproheptadine, chlorpromazine). Severe cases should be managed under consultation with a toxicologist and may require sedation, neuromuscular paralysis, intubation, and mechanical ventilation in addition to the other measures.
This is the end of the thread.
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