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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by bleauberry on December 28, 2009, at 18:47:32
In reply to Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2009, at 19:10:50
Stablon is one of the popular overseas ADs that people mailorder. Lots of people here at pbabble have tried it. Including me. I still have boxes of it unused.
I found it, well, hard to describe. I felt kind of calm and slightly dazed. I wasn't on it long enough. I have a skin condition that is easily flared by anything that stimulates dopamine/NE, and it flared up badly on Stablon. So if anyone is wondering whether it has a direct effect on DA/NE, yes it does.
The serotonin reuptake enhancer thing is of not much usefulness. Theory. The drug happens to have multiple functions, many of which are not related to things we normally think about with psychiatric drugs. They all just happen to benefit depression in ways that American meds don't look at. I suspect if it really does speed up the reuptake of serotonin, then what that does is cause the body to make more serotonin and to circulate it faster. Which would be good for mood.
In the last couple years I think the general finding on pbabblers who have used Stablon would be something similar to this:
Mild antidepressant, probably not enough for severe depression in most people. Mileage varies of course. Generally speaking.
Either somewhat calming or somewhat stimulating in the early weeks, transforming to overstimulation over months.
Not much in the way of side effects, at least when you compare it to other ADs. I think the most common thing I remember mentioned was some initital stimulation/insomnia when starting.
Easily ordered from overseas.
It was at the [xxx] website I first discovered my favorite AD of the planet Milnacipran. Now if someone wants a real AD, I would look at that before Stablon.
Posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2009, at 19:20:21
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by inanimate peanut on December 27, 2009, at 22:37:58
Peanut thanks for that link. Oh the med is available. Sounds like good for dysphoria and anxiety that isn't really anxiety anymore if that makes sense? I think I like the med profile. More research for sure. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2009, at 19:28:00
In reply to stablon question » Phillipa, posted by floatingbridge on December 28, 2009, at 0:07:00
Fb it sounded that way to me hence why posted the link. Love Phillipa
Posted by 2nd xylophone on December 28, 2009, at 19:38:48
In reply to Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by Phillipa on December 27, 2009, at 19:10:50
> Picked this up on another board and was surpised when clicking on stablon to see it's an SSE and that it virtually works the opposite way of SSRI's and is in moderate range of stimulating to sedating. Is this true? Phillipa
>[-----------]
Guideline
Please don't use this site to exchange information that could be used to import into the US:
prescription medication without a prescription or
medication that hasn't been approved by the US Food and Drug Administration.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 31, 2009, at 18:03:58
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » Phillipa, posted by 2nd xylophone on December 28, 2009, at 19:38:48
> Guideline
>
> Please don't use this site to exchange information that could be used to import into the US:
>
> prescription medication without a prescription or
> medication that hasn't been approved by the US Food and Drug Administration.I appreciate attention to the guidelines, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding them to Psycho-Babble Administration. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20091103/msgs/931343.html
That's a different thread, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there.
Please feel free to continue to discuss the pros and cons of the medication (as opposed to how to obtain it). Thanks,
Bob
Posted by casse on January 1, 2010, at 13:04:10
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » inanimate peanut, posted by Phillipa on December 28, 2009, at 19:20:21
I started using Stablon this morning at half of a 12.5 mg tablet.
I always wake up with anxiety and a sense of impending doom and the physical symptoms that go with it. Butterflies in stomach, tightness in chest, feeling like my esophagus is being squeezed and detached feeling in legs, left arm and left side of torso. I get overwhelmed at the prospect of simple tasks and by mid-day I am exhausted without doing much of anything. I feel that this anxiety is what triggers depression for me. I don't know what type of depression I'm dx'd with, can't get a straight answer from my pdoc
( who I finally fired this week after dancing with him for a year). I have had some manic type behavior in the past that seems to be triggered by stress. But lately I've just been extremely low, lethargic, unable to feel pleasure.I quit using opiates for pain 8 months ago, and have experienced lows I didn't know were possible since then, but I'm inclined to think I've had enough time to recover from the damage done by the pain meds. I think it's lazy to blame withdrawl for a patient being unresponsive to SSRI's. I couldn't take them before I ever took an opiate either. They' have always made me "wig out", I'd get agitated, reckless, angry, irresponsible, and feel extremely detached from myself. I've had enough. That's when Stablon came in.
About an hour after taking the Stablon I felt calm and relaxed. I was able to think about an overwhelming task I've been procrastinating about without getting anxious. It's been about 4-1/2 hours and I still feel good. I cooked Chicken Marsala from scratch for lunch. I rarely cook anymore! And I don't feel low. I still don't feel any pleasure, but I'm encouraged.
I know it's early to tell if this is going to help me, but I'm so relieved not to feel the horrible side effects that SSRI's cause. We'll see if it affects my sleep. I am also taking 50 mg Trazodone nightly and Low Dose Naltrexone .125 mg EOD.
I've been banging my head against a wall for 13 years trying to find something that works. Therapy, counseling, medication, meditation, eft, etps, and the only thing I can say that has done me absolutely no good is the medications I've taken. It's not the Dr.s fault they don't know all the possible medications and they can't prescribe anything not FDA approved in the USA. But I'm free to travel anywhere I can afford to and get medical treatment there. If this drug proves to work for me and the only way I can get it is to move to another country...that's what I'll do.
Posted by highhatsize on January 1, 2010, at 14:19:19
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by casse on January 1, 2010, at 13:04:10
HOO-rah!
Keep us updated, please.
Posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2010, at 20:53:53
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by highhatsize on January 1, 2010, at 14:19:19
That is wonderful and truly inspiring. Congrats Phillipa
Posted by casse on January 4, 2010, at 17:32:23
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2010, at 20:53:53
Today makes my 4th day with Stablon. So far it's really helped, especially with the physical symptoms of anxiety. I was concerned that it might aggrivate anxiety because I'm very sensitive to stimulants ( even decaf coffee ), but it hasn't caused nervousness or jitters. It's definitely stimulating, but in a gentle way at the dose I'm taking. I'm still only taking 12.5 mgs a day split into 2 doses. I also salivate more and find myself swallowing more frequently than usual and my appetite is blunted somewhat.
I have had a slight headache for the first couple of hours after taking it a couple of times, but nothing like other ADs have caused. If I wait too long between doses I start to feel all of the physical symptoms return, but not as much in the evening as at mid-day, and with less intensity today as on the first day.
I have been waking up a couple of times a night, but am able to go back to sleep. I have continued taking 3mg. melatonin, an herbal sleep enhancement blend, and 50 mg of Trazodone every night at bedtime. Also LDN every other night. LDN is not likely to be causing the sleep disturbance, I've been using it since June and it has only caused vivid dreams. So I feel confident it's the stablon.
I have made sure to take my last dose of Stablon before 4 PM to hopefully avoid more problems with sleep.
I had a very stressful morning and I've noticed that my mood is lower than it was the first couple of days, but no anxiety. So it's probably time to increase the dose. I'm still way below the recommended 37.5 mg a day. I wanted to take my time increasing dose to minimize side effects. Also, I want to take the lowest effective dose possible. I'm still being cautious.
Before starting on the Stablon I also had some very wierd symptoms that may or may not be from anxiety, namely lots of pressure in my pelvic region. The Stablon has eased that too. It also seems to have analgesic properties. I have chronic neck and back pain and that seems less bothersome on the stablon.
So far I'm still encouraged.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 4, 2010, at 19:52:25
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by casse on January 4, 2010, at 17:32:23
Casse,
Wow. Good luck--! May I ask what lead you to LDN--and how did you get it prescribed? And the Stablon--mail order?
fb
Posted by Phillipa on January 4, 2010, at 21:23:57
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by casse on January 4, 2010, at 17:32:23
Casse ldn for autoimmune? And the stablon any benzos also? From the psychonauts? Yes the 12.5mg seems to be the best starting dose from what I've also read. Keep posting on it or babblemail me. Love Phillipa
Posted by casse on January 7, 2010, at 0:09:12
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by floatingbridge on January 4, 2010, at 19:52:25
Yes, I got the Stablon that way.
As for the LDN, I had taken opiates for chronic pain for almost 3 years before finding alternative non-medicinal treatment. When I quit taking them, I had some awful withdrawl symptoms. Numbness, loss of coordination, tingling, and felt like my chest was being squeezed all of the time. This went on for several months before I was refered to a neurologist with suspected MS. In the meantime, I went online and started reading up on LDN. I had also heard about it while trying to find out about opiate withdrawl. Some guy has a blog online where he claims that endorphin deficiency leads to depression and subsequent opiate abuse for some. He suggested that LDN might be efficacious for depression if that is the case. I'm not endorsing his theory
(the role of natural endorphins and enkephalins on mood is not that simple ), but it led me on my search. Since then I've read volumes of info about it and also tried to learn as much about other's experiences with it as possible. Important to me, since it's such a grass roots therapy and there are only a couple of real "experts" on it in the world. Foremost is Dr. Ian Zagon. But being the good research scientist, he sticks to the facts as they relate to his research. So with regard to what conditions LDN can help treat, and at what dose, even this particular expert does not say. But I digress...I still don't have an MS diagnosis. I probably don't have it, and unless I have symptoms that threaten my life I'm going to forget about it. I ran out of money and insurance. But I decided to try the LDN since it is inexpensive and safe to use even prophylactically. My pdoc was kind enough to prescribe it, but not understanding (or necessarily agreeing with ) how I intended to use it, he prescribed 50 mg. My hope was that it would help with both depression and relieve the physical symptoms.
So I've compounded it at home since I started using it. I get syrups from my pharmacist and make a suspension. I don't know that this method is a better way of " diluting", but the pharmacist thought it would be more stable.
The LDN DID give me more energy at the 1.5 mg dose I took at first, and I think that may have caused me to be more active. That in turn can stimulate serotonin production and enhance mood (and I believe it did). But it also made me feel agitated. That made my anxiety worse. So I've experimented with different dosages trying to find tolerance. I dropped my dose way down to .25 mg and started over, taking it every other night. I definitely feel even that small amount. I have very vivid dreams the nights I take it, and feel slightly irritable the following morning. But I intend to work up to 1.5 mg again, as that is regarded as the minimally effective dose. Now that I'm enjoying success with the effects Stablon is having on my anxiety symptoms, I'm encouraged to increase my dosage of LDN again. My sister recently found out she has breast cancer, so a prophylactic that might help prevent cancer is even more important to me now!
I hope this isn't too much information. I do tend to go on....
Posted by casse on January 7, 2010, at 0:38:55
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by Phillipa on January 4, 2010, at 21:23:57
I'm not sure if I have autoimmune issues. But I do have positive ANA. That can be caused by a lot of other things though. The LDN has kept me from turning into a freak when I am exposed to Poison Ivy tho'. I became unrecognizable sometimes when I would get it in the past.My face would swell up, turn thick, leathery and red when I'd get exposed. I'd say that was definitely an exaggerated immune response. I started LDN in June and only got a couple of tiny blisters even though I literally mowed through fields of PI this summer, getting sprayed with the oils. That wasn't my intended use for LDN, but it sure was a welcome bonus! I posted my history with LDN in a previous reply to Floatingbridge a little while ago if you want to know about it.
I'm self medicating with Stablon. I haven't been taking any benzos with it, but I got some today and might if I feel the need. I saw a Dr. for an unrelated issue, and told her about taking it. I told her that I had poor success with SSRIs because of anxiety so she gave me some ativan and urged me to increase my dose of stablon to the recomended amount as quickly as possible to avoid breakthrough anxiety and depression. The ativan is for "just in case", but I noticed today that I was a little bit nervous, and was grateful for the rx. So far being nervous hasn't triggered any anxiety attacks, so I'm still encouraged.
Today I split my pills so that I could take about 2/3 of each, and I felt fine. I'm really hesitant about taking a third dose, as it might interfere with sleep. But I'm comfortable increasing the two doses I do take and seem to be doing ok tonight, 11-1/2 hours after my last dose.
I'll keep posting...thanks for taking an interest.
Posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2010, at 19:48:50
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » Phillipa, posted by casse on January 7, 2010, at 0:38:55
Casse I'm very interested seriously as have known that about ldn. Also stablon has me really intrigued. So sorry about your sister. What will be her treatment? You can babble if you like. Phillipa
Posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 11:32:19
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by Phillipa on January 7, 2010, at 19:48:50
I'm still having excellent results with Stablon. I'm up to two 12.5 mg tabs. twice daily and am going to increase by adding half a tab in the evening. So far headaches I had initially have improved, but I still have very vivid dreams.
I saw a Gastrointerologist today and gave him a print out on Tianeptine. He was very interested and is going to see if he can learn more from his colleagues.
He is of the opinion that the intestinal contractions and pressure I've been having are from anxiety and depression related to post accute withdrawl syndrome after quitting opiate pain meds. It's hard to believe that 8 mos. after quitting them I'm still having such severe symptoms and that they would be getting worse, but what can I do? I have hit a dead end again. The only other possible cause of all of my symptoms together is so rare and unlikely that the Dr. isn't even considering it as a possibility.
So while I am no more satisfied with my diagnosis, I am very happy to be able to effectively treat the symptoms. Hooray for that!
Posted by highhatsize on January 11, 2010, at 14:17:02
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 11:32:19
> He is of the opinion that the intestinal contractions and pressure I've been having are from anxiety and depression related to post accute withdrawl syndrome after quitting opiate pain meds.<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the risk of ridicule for proposing a simple solution to diarrhea that you have probably already tried, I have found that Pepto-Bismol taken prophylactically prevents symptoms due to the discontinuation of narcotics. When I have to go out, I take a slug of Pepto-Bismol and have been untroubled. If I am at home for a few days without taking it, I can expect a period of frequent and urgent bowel movements. It has been about four months since I discontinued Norco (10 mg. hydrocodone / 325 mg. apap) and my symptoms have remained constant. I don't expect them to improve anytime soon, but the Pepto makes them manageable.
I don't think that the diarrhea has a psychological cause. Rather, I think that my body adjusted over time to the narcotic's depressive effect on peristalsis. In order to keep digestion moving, peristaltic contractions became stronger. Now, in the absence of the inhibiting narcotic, the contractions are too powerful.
Parenthetically, thanks for the update on Stablon. I am following your progress attentively. If this remedy has legs, I will discuss it with friends for whom the SSRIs are effective but which have debilitating sexual side effects.
- highhatsize
Posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 16:50:29
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by highhatsize on January 11, 2010, at 14:17:02
Thanks for the suggestion of Pepto. I really don't have troublesome diarrhea, just occasional. It's the bizzare sensation of pressure in my extreme lower bowel and feeling like my guts are being squeezed that really bothers me. This hasn't been a problem until recently. I went through withdrawl from Norco without much physical discomfort at all since I did a very slow taper. It was the depression, anxiety and complete loss of motivation that were the pits. It's been about 9 months now and I feel like it's all getting worse instead of better...that is until stablon. And another benefit of the Stablon is my chronic cough and wheezing are better too. Not gone, but better.
Posted by floatingbridge on January 11, 2010, at 19:13:47
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » floatingbridge, posted by casse on January 7, 2010, at 0:09:12
Casse,
Thanks for all the information--never to much! I am curious about LDN and have been for some time. I don't know which way my recovery will take, so I'm gathering notes along the way. I'm glad your results are positive besides the gastrointestinal issues. Something as simple as pepto working would be great.
Apologies for the delayed reply,
fb
Posted by Phillipa on January 11, 2010, at 19:48:05
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's????, posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 11:32:19
Casse that is great. So your're responding to the stablon? I'm encouraged. Love Phillipa
Posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 21:07:40
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by Phillipa on January 11, 2010, at 19:48:05
Yes the stablon is working well for me. Especially as an anxiolytic. It's antidepressant effect isn't as profound, but it certainly helps as my depression is exacerbated by anxiety. I'm able to think about the future in a positive way at least part of the time, a huge improvement over how I felt before I started it. I really think I need to get up to taking all 3 doses every day and avoid break-through anxiety. I've been hesitant because of the stimulating effect and vivid dreams. I'm leery of Benzo's, but I guess I should take my NP's advice and use the Ativan. I didn't want to go that route because some of the folks who have used benzo's and stablon concurrently haven't liked the combination. Oh well, the ativan is only temporary anyway. I only have enough for about a month. Might as well use it.
Posted by Phillipa on January 11, 2010, at 21:30:06
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » Phillipa, posted by casse on January 11, 2010, at 21:07:40
Casse when you speak of breakthrough anxiety how bad is it. I wonder if it could be compared to pain as they say medicate before the pain begins? Love Phillipa
Posted by casse on January 12, 2010, at 17:50:40
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by Phillipa on January 11, 2010, at 21:30:06
Yes, it's exactly like avoiding breakthrough pain. My NP said that in order to successfully treat both anxiety and depression, breakthrough symptoms must be avoided. That makes sense. For me, both conditions are self perpetuating. The only times I have ever had remission is when I was able to keep the worst of symptoms at bay for several months. Using xanax always worked for me in the past, but now I've got a Pdoc who is adamantly against benzos. So I had to suffer until I found out about Stablon. My Pdoc is going to have a cow when he finds out I have Ativan. I get my mental health care paid by the county, so I have to accept whatever care they offer. I've tried to get a different pdoc, but they won't allow it. What that has meant for me until I found Stablon is SUFFER. It's very hard not to be bitter.
Posted by tea on January 12, 2010, at 18:20:28
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » casse, posted by floatingbridge on January 4, 2010, at 19:52:25
> Casse,
>
> Wow. Good luck--! May I ask what lead you to LDN--and how did you get it prescribed? And the Stablon--mail order?
>
> fb
>
Hi, I just came across this thread looking for personal experiences on ldn, especially of folk who also have other "problems" be it autoimmune, allergies, depression or anxiety etc.I think I read that ldn can be purchased in capsule form 4.5mg OTC (no scrip required ) in the US? I could be wrong. It's probably cheaper to buy the full strength naltrexone via mail order though. Unsure but may be worth looking into if you are interested in trying it.
CasseI was looking for the thread where you descrivbed your ldn experiences to floatingbridge.. didn't find
To me the main benefit of forums is to share our own experiences on drugs, and also if there was anything that helped with the side effects :)
Posted by floatingbridge on January 12, 2010, at 18:44:35
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » floatingbridge, posted by casse on January 7, 2010, at 0:09:12
Tea, here it is--very informative.
:-)> Yes, I got the Stablon that way.
>
> As for the LDN, I had taken opiates for chronic pain for almost 3 years before finding alternative non-medicinal treatment. When I quit taking them, I had some awful withdrawl symptoms. Numbness, loss of coordination, tingling, and felt like my chest was being squeezed all of the time. This went on for several months before I was refered to a neurologist with suspected MS. In the meantime, I went online and started reading up on LDN. I had also heard about it while trying to find out about opiate withdrawl. Some guy has a blog online where he claims that endorphin deficiency leads to depression and subsequent opiate abuse for some. He suggested that LDN might be efficacious for depression if that is the case. I'm not endorsing his theory
> (the role of natural endorphins and enkephalins on mood is not that simple ), but it led me on my search. Since then I've read volumes of info about it and also tried to learn as much about other's experiences with it as possible. Important to me, since it's such a grass roots therapy and there are only a couple of real "experts" on it in the world. Foremost is Dr. Ian Zagon. But being the good research scientist, he sticks to the facts as they relate to his research. So with regard to what conditions LDN can help treat, and at what dose, even this particular expert does not say. But I digress...
>
> I still don't have an MS diagnosis. I probably don't have it, and unless I have symptoms that threaten my life I'm going to forget about it. I ran out of money and insurance. But I decided to try the LDN since it is inexpensive and safe to use even prophylactically. My pdoc was kind enough to prescribe it, but not understanding (or necessarily agreeing with ) how I intended to use it, he prescribed 50 mg. My hope was that it would help with both depression and relieve the physical symptoms.
>
> So I've compounded it at home since I started using it. I get syrups from my pharmacist and make a suspension. I don't know that this method is a better way of " diluting", but the pharmacist thought it would be more stable.
>
> The LDN DID give me more energy at the 1.5 mg dose I took at first, and I think that may have caused me to be more active. That in turn can stimulate serotonin production and enhance mood (and I believe it did). But it also made me feel agitated. That made my anxiety worse. So I've experimented with different dosages trying to find tolerance. I dropped my dose way down to .25 mg and started over, taking it every other night. I definitely feel even that small amount. I have very vivid dreams the nights I take it, and feel slightly irritable the following morning. But I intend to work up to 1.5 mg again, as that is regarded as the minimally effective dose. Now that I'm enjoying success with the effects Stablon is having on my anxiety symptoms, I'm encouraged to increase my dosage of LDN again. My sister recently found out she has breast cancer, so a prophylactic that might help prevent cancer is even more important to me now!
>
> I hope this isn't too much information. I do tend to go on....
>
Posted by floatingbridge on January 12, 2010, at 19:03:34
In reply to Re: Are These Meds For Real? Ad's???? » Phillipa, posted by casse on January 12, 2010, at 17:50:40
Casse, so you weren't able to find away around bemzos. Sigh. Though you are getting anxiety relief on the Stablon, though not complete? As an anxiety sufferer I've used Xanax for years, both instant and xr. Klonopin can work well for break-though anxiety, however, I found it a bit of a depressive. I retried it recently and was dismayed to find that same effect .
Amazingly, I've been able to keep Xanax tolerance at a reasonably low rate for about 10 years. Recently, not so, and anxiety attacks have increased in frequency and acuity.
I agree w/ you and Phillips about the anxieties being similar to a pain syndrome. I wish I, or a doctor had figured this out years ago. Experiencing anxiety and being at it's mercy truly exacerbates my depression. So here I am. :-)
Does LDN help w/ anxiety?
kind regards,
fb
> Yes, it's exactly like avoiding breakthrough pain. My NP said that in order to successfully treat both anxiety and depression, breakthrough symptoms must be avoided. That makes sense. For me, both conditions are self perpetuating. The only times I have ever had remission is when I was able to keep the worst of symptoms at bay for several months. Using xanax always worked for me in the past, but now I've got a Pdoc who is adamantly against benzos. So I had to suffer until I found out about Stablon. My Pdoc is going to have a cow when he finds out I have Ativan. I get my mental health care paid by the county, so I have to accept whatever care they offer. I've tried to get a different pdoc, but they won't allow it. What that has meant for me until I found Stablon is SUFFER. It's very hard not to be bitter.
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