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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by orbital on January 1, 2010, at 15:19:33
Hi everyone, delurking here :) - I'm a long time babble reader
I've been struggling with depression and anxiety for several years. Panic disorder is in complete remission, thanks to Klonopin and CBT. Currently treating depression/dysthymia with Prozac.
Anyway, my primary anxiety symptom is dizziness - it's usually very low-grade, although some days are tough. After trying a host of meds and undergoing several medical exams, I all but resigned myself to it.
Two weeks ago, my pharmacist recommended Stugeron (cinnarizine), which is OTC where I live. Although I'd never heard of it, I was extremely leery, as I'd tried many antihistamines and motion sickness pills in the past, with no effect whatsoever.
So I took the Stugeron with my pdoc's consent, and to my surprise... within a few days, not only did the dizziness vanish, but I suddenly started feeling amazingly well. Not manic/high/giddy, just a sense of wellbeing I never thought I'd experience again.
My pdoc is baffled - she looked up cinnarizine's properties, and apparently it's used as a nootropic, though the references are quite obscure. She wants me to stop taking it for a bit, to see how I respond.
I know this sounds spammish for a first post - just thought I'd throw it out there :)
Posted by West on January 1, 2010, at 15:42:26
In reply to Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results, posted by orbital on January 1, 2010, at 15:19:33
I found quite the opposite. Isn't it known to cause depression?
Posted by Deneb on January 1, 2010, at 20:14:47
In reply to Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results, posted by orbital on January 1, 2010, at 15:19:33
Hello Orbital!
Welcome to Psycho-Babble! Thanks for sharing your success with Stugeron. I'm glad you de-lurked. :-)
Deneb
Posted by orbital on January 2, 2010, at 18:28:20
In reply to Re: Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results, posted by West on January 1, 2010, at 15:42:26
> I found quite the opposite. Isn't it known to cause depression?
I guess we're all different? I haven't felt this good in years. My pdoc wants me to stop taking it for a bit to see what happens, but I'm actually considering NOT dropping it, just in case it backfires.
Posted by orbital on January 2, 2010, at 18:32:54
In reply to Re: Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results » orbital, posted by Deneb on January 1, 2010, at 20:14:47
> Hello Orbital!
>
> Welcome to Psycho-Babble! Thanks for sharing your success with Stugeron. I'm glad you de-lurked. :-)
>
> DenebThanks for the welcome :) I was going to repost as I thought my post hadn't gone through, didn't think to look at the bottom of the main page.
Posted by hopefullynow on January 3, 2010, at 2:45:05
In reply to Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results, posted by orbital on January 1, 2010, at 15:19:33
Orbital,
at what dosage of Prozac and Stugeron you're on?
Thanks!
Posted by orbital on January 3, 2010, at 4:10:19
In reply to Re: Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results » orbital, posted by hopefullynow on January 3, 2010, at 2:45:05
I'm taking 10 mg Prozac, 225 mg Stugeron (in three divided doses). Stugeron is available in an extended release form, I might try that eventually.
> Orbital,
> at what dosage of Prozac and Stugeron you're on?
> Thanks!
Posted by hopefullynow on January 3, 2010, at 10:10:20
In reply to Re: Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results » hopefullynow, posted by orbital on January 3, 2010, at 4:10:19
I was also on a small dose Prozac (5-10mg/day) for amotivation/anergia and indeed it helped me but with the expense of agitation and nervousness.I had one strange feeleing of not being of tolerate people around me.I stayed in my room all day long surfing the net.I had energy to do things alone, I hated to be around even with my family.It's what happens with all AD's that are activators, like Prozac.Maybe you're right, Stugeron could ease that internal agitation (not akathisia).
I have Stugeron in my home-pharma from a past failed attempt and I'm thinking to try to augument the AD i'm on now.Isn't 225 mg a huge dose?My cinnarizine comes in 25 mg formulation that means ten pills divided.How did you start?Directly with 225 mg/day?
The last question, could you elaborate in what way it helped you?Thanks a lot!
Regards!
> I'm taking 10 mg Prozac, 225 mg Stugeron (in three divided doses). Stugeron is available in an extended release form, I might try that eventually.
>
>
> > Orbital,
> > at what dosage of Prozac and Stugeron you're on?
> > Thanks!
>
>
>
Posted by orbital on January 3, 2010, at 11:12:49
In reply to Re: Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results » orbital, posted by hopefullynow on January 3, 2010, at 10:10:20
> I was also on a small dose Prozac (5-10mg/day) for amotivation/anergia and indeed it helped me but with the expense of agitation and nervousness.I had one strange feeleing of not being of tolerate people around me.I stayed in my room all day long surfing the net.I had energy to do things alone, I hated to be around even with my family.It's what happens with all AD's that are activators, like Prozac.Maybe you're right, Stugeron could ease that internal agitation (not akathisia).
Okay, I experienced some agitation when I started taking Prozac four months ago - I increased my Klonopin for a while, until the agitation resolved (about 3 weeks). This was all pre-Stugeron.
> I have Stugeron in my home-pharma from a past failed attempt and I'm thinking to try to augument the AD i'm on now.Isn't 225 mg a huge dose?My cinnarizine comes in 25 mg formulation that means ten pills divided.How did you start?Directly with 225 mg/day?
I have 75mg tablets. I started out on that dose, and increased to the max dose (225mg/day) over the course of a few days, as I didn't experience any of the side effects common to antihistamines (sleepiness, blurred vision, etc). In fact, the only reason I can tell I'm taking it is due to the positive effect it has had (I was stabilised on a constant dose of meds for several weeks before starting cinnarizine).
> The last question, could you elaborate in what way it helped you?
Cinnarizine took care of the low-grade (and treatment resistant) dizziness I've experienced for years very quickly. Additionally, after a few days on it, I started feeling extremely well - hard to explain... very clear headed, focused and stable. It's almost as though the Stugeron gave my meds the final kick they needed.
Here's what I found in Wikipedia (not exactly a reliable resource, I know ;-) )
"Cinnarizine could be also viewed as a nootropic drug because of its vasorelaxating abilities (due to calcium channel blockage), which happen mostly in brain. It is also effectively combined with other nootropics, primarily Piracetam; in such combination each drug potentiate the other in boosting brain oxygen supply." --- I'm *not* taking Piracetam.
I also checked pubmed... According to several studies, cinnarizine may induce parkinsonism, especially in the elderly.
This one is particularly interesting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15982988?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1PMID: 15982988
"Cinnarizine has an atypical antipsychotic profile in animal models of psychosis.
Dall'Igna OP, Tort AB, Souza DO, Lara DR.
Cinnarizine, a drug known as a calcium channel blocker, is currently used for the treatment of migraine and vertigo. Induction of extrapyramidal signs by cinnarizine has been reported in the elderly, which is related to its moderate antagonistic properties at dopamine D2 receptors, resembling the mechanism of action of most antipsychotic drugs. Despite this effect, cinnarizine has never been tested as a putative antipsychotic drug. Here we evaluate the potential effect of cinnarizine in two pharmacological models of psychosis, namely amphetamine- and MK-801-induced hyperlocomotion, as well as its ability to induce catalepsy. Cinnarizine significantly counteracted MK-801 (0.25 mg/kg) and amphetamine (5mg/kg) locomotor effects at doses as low as 20mg/kg, having no incremental effect at 60 or 180 mg/kg. Regarding side-effects, cinnarizine induced no catalepsy in mice at the effective dose of 20 mg/kg, inducing only mild catalepsy at the doses of 60 and 180 mg/kg. Based on these results and on the antagonist effect of cinnarizine on dopamine D2 receptors, we suggest that it has a potential antipsychotic effect with an atypical profile that should be evaluated clinically."
I'm not sure what this might mean in practice.
> Thanks a lot!
> Regards!You're welcome, take care :)
Posted by orbital on January 3, 2010, at 11:15:45
In reply to Re: Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results » orbital, posted by hopefullynow on January 3, 2010, at 10:10:20
Posted by West on January 3, 2010, at 14:40:32
In reply to Re: Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results, posted by orbital on January 3, 2010, at 11:12:49
Guess I don't need any dopamine antagonists. Weird it helps you...Long may it continue!
Posted by hopefullynow on January 4, 2010, at 0:35:35
In reply to Re: Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results, posted by orbital on January 3, 2010, at 11:12:49
Orbital,
Thank you so much for your detailed explanations, very interesting things about cinnarizine, i knew that it is an antihistaminic but didn't knew about it's weak D2 antagonistic properties.Last night i took 50 mg and slept very good.I woke up with a nice sense of wellness, same sensation that risperidone or olanzapine gave me but without sedation and ravenous hunger.One thing, about an hour after I took Stugeron, before falling asleep I felt some nausea.Do you take it with food, or you never experienced this?
Thanks again.> > I was also on a small dose Prozac (5-10mg/day) for amotivation/anergia and indeed it helped me but with the expense of agitation and nervousness.I had one strange feeleing of not being of tolerate people around me.I stayed in my room all day long surfing the net.I had energy to do things alone, I hated to be around even with my family.It's what happens with all AD's that are activators, like Prozac.Maybe you're right, Stugeron could ease that internal agitation (not akathisia).
>
> Okay, I experienced some agitation when I started taking Prozac four months ago - I increased my Klonopin for a while, until the agitation resolved (about 3 weeks). This was all pre-Stugeron.
>
> > I have Stugeron in my home-pharma from a past failed attempt and I'm thinking to try to augument the AD i'm on now.Isn't 225 mg a huge dose?My cinnarizine comes in 25 mg formulation that means ten pills divided.How did you start?Directly with 225 mg/day?
>
> I have 75mg tablets. I started out on that dose, and increased to the max dose (225mg/day) over the course of a few days, as I didn't experience any of the side effects common to antihistamines (sleepiness, blurred vision, etc). In fact, the only reason I can tell I'm taking it is due to the positive effect it has had (I was stabilised on a constant dose of meds for several weeks before starting cinnarizine).
>
> > The last question, could you elaborate in what way it helped you?
>
> Cinnarizine took care of the low-grade (and treatment resistant) dizziness I've experienced for years very quickly. Additionally, after a few days on it, I started feeling extremely well - hard to explain... very clear headed, focused and stable. It's almost as though the Stugeron gave my meds the final kick they needed.
>
> Here's what I found in Wikipedia (not exactly a reliable resource, I know ;-) )
>
> "Cinnarizine could be also viewed as a nootropic drug because of its vasorelaxating abilities (due to calcium channel blockage), which happen mostly in brain. It is also effectively combined with other nootropics, primarily Piracetam; in such combination each drug potentiate the other in boosting brain oxygen supply." --- I'm *not* taking Piracetam.
>
> I also checked pubmed... According to several studies, cinnarizine may induce parkinsonism, especially in the elderly.
>
> This one is particularly interesting:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15982988?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1
>
> PMID: 15982988
>
> "Cinnarizine has an atypical antipsychotic profile in animal models of psychosis.
>
> Dall'Igna OP, Tort AB, Souza DO, Lara DR.
>
> Cinnarizine, a drug known as a calcium channel blocker, is currently used for the treatment of migraine and vertigo. Induction of extrapyramidal signs by cinnarizine has been reported in the elderly, which is related to its moderate antagonistic properties at dopamine D2 receptors, resembling the mechanism of action of most antipsychotic drugs. Despite this effect, cinnarizine has never been tested as a putative antipsychotic drug. Here we evaluate the potential effect of cinnarizine in two pharmacological models of psychosis, namely amphetamine- and MK-801-induced hyperlocomotion, as well as its ability to induce catalepsy. Cinnarizine significantly counteracted MK-801 (0.25 mg/kg) and amphetamine (5mg/kg) locomotor effects at doses as low as 20mg/kg, having no incremental effect at 60 or 180 mg/kg. Regarding side-effects, cinnarizine induced no catalepsy in mice at the effective dose of 20 mg/kg, inducing only mild catalepsy at the doses of 60 and 180 mg/kg. Based on these results and on the antagonist effect of cinnarizine on dopamine D2 receptors, we suggest that it has a potential antipsychotic effect with an atypical profile that should be evaluated clinically."
>
> I'm not sure what this might mean in practice.
>
>
> > Thanks a lot!
> > Regards!
>
> You're welcome, take care :)
Posted by orbital on January 4, 2010, at 1:40:05
In reply to Re: Stugeron/cinnarizine - great results » orbital, posted by hopefullynow on January 4, 2010, at 0:35:35
I'm glad to hear you've had a positive response so far :)
Honestly, I'm very surprised by this drug's positive effect. I've ruled out placebo effect, as I doubted I'd get any benefit whatsoever when I started taking it; I'm very jaded when it comes to antihistamines, they never seem to do much of anything for me (with the exception of mirtazapine and mianserin, not technically antihistamines anyway). So this was completely unexpected.
My experience with antipsychotics is very limited - I used to take a small dose of quetiapine for sleep, but it didn't have any notable effect on me, it did nothing for my insomnia, so my pdoc whisked me off it after a two month trial.
I've taken the Stugeron on an empty stomach several times, and haven't experienced any problems - the insert does recommend taking it with food, to avoid possible GI problems. No sedation (or stimulation for that matter) either.
Uhmmmm... at the moment, I'm a bit weary of taking cinnarizine long term. It definitely seems like it might have pretty powerful properties that haven't been fully determined. I'll ask my doc to see what she thinks.
Thanks :)
> Orbital,
> Thank you so much for your detailed explanations, very interesting things about cinnarizine, i knew that it is an antihistaminic but didn't knew about it's weak D2 antagonistic properties.Last night i took 50 mg and slept very good.I woke up with a nice sense of wellness, same sensation that risperidone or olanzapine gave me but without sedation and ravenous hunger.One thing, about an hour after I took Stugeron, before falling asleep I felt some nausea.Do you take it with food, or you never experienced this?
> Thanks again.
This is the end of the thread.
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