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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SLS on August 29, 2009, at 16:39:30
I might be interested in trying magnetic therapy. Does anyone know which frequency is more effective: 10Hz or 20Hz?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2009, at 20:35:46
In reply to rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by SLS on August 29, 2009, at 16:39:30
Scott are there no articles on it? Seriously if you don't know who would? love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2009, at 20:39:37
In reply to rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by SLS on August 29, 2009, at 16:39:30
Scott I'm sure you've seen this. Anyway. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on August 30, 2009, at 0:52:50
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression? » SLS, posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2009, at 20:39:37
> Scott I'm sure you've seen this. Anyway. Phillipa
>
> http://wireheading.com/rtms/frequency.html
Thanks.I am still undecided as to which frequency has shown greater efficacy. rTMS is an interesting treatment. If you give high-frequency (10-20Hz) trains on the left side you get an antidepressant effect. However, if you give low-frequency (1Hz) trains, you make depression worse. When you go over to the right side, the relationship reverses. Low-frequency trains produce an antidepressant effect. I believe that high-frequency trains produce a worsening of depression, but I am not as sure about this. I think they might be looking at right-side high-frequency trains to work as a treatment for mania.
- Scott
Posted by morganator on August 30, 2009, at 2:52:49
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression? » SLS, posted by Phillipa on August 29, 2009, at 20:35:46
I am interested in this as well.
From what I understand rTMS can have some potentially long term benefits. Is that your understanding as well Scott?
Posted by SLS on August 30, 2009, at 7:07:23
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by morganator on August 30, 2009, at 2:52:49
> I am interested in this as well.
>
> From what I understand rTMS can have some potentially long term benefits. Is that your understanding as well Scott?There was a poster here who had success with rTMS treatment. She would need follow-up treatments every 3-6 months to maintain the response. I believe she was taking nefazodone at the time.
I'm hoping that rTMS treatments will enhance the therapeutic effects of the antidepressants I'm taking. It would be great if a single course of rTMS would train the brain to behave itself.
Course of rTMS:
5 treatments per week for 4 weeks.
$400 per treatment, $8000 Total
I don't think Medicare covers rTMS yet. Private insurance companies often use Medicare decisions as a precedent to determine coverage. That's how VNS became a covered procedure.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on August 30, 2009, at 11:19:55
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression? » morganator, posted by SLS on August 30, 2009, at 7:07:23
I remember 10Hz (left prefrontal) working better. But then again, this was my home-made machiene.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 30, 2009, at 11:21:16
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression? » morganator, posted by SLS on August 30, 2009, at 7:07:23
Also, I found that rTMS was much less effective when I used it in conjunction with anticonvulsants. I actually got symptoms of serotonin syndrome when combined with lithium.
Linkadge
Posted by morganator on August 30, 2009, at 11:32:08
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression? » morganator, posted by SLS on August 30, 2009, at 7:07:23
>I'm hoping that rTMS treatments will enhance the therapeutic effects of the antidepressants I'm taking. It would be great if a single course of rTMS would train the brain to behave itself.
I'm hoping it helps the brain recover in a way that continuing medication treatment will be more effective that it was. I have heard of it being used for recovery from brain injury or stroke, at least thats what I think I remember. If this is the case, you would think it may potentially have some long term permanent healing effect on the brain for depressives.
Posted by morganator on August 30, 2009, at 11:33:17
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by linkadge on August 30, 2009, at 11:19:55
> I remember 10Hz (left prefrontal) working better. But then again, this was my home-made machiene.
>
> LinkadgeHuh??? Home machine????
Posted by SLS on August 30, 2009, at 11:47:05
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by linkadge on August 30, 2009, at 11:19:55
> I remember 10Hz (left prefrontal) working better. But then again, this was my home-made machiene.
Yes, I remember those days.
Thanks. I might go with the 10Hz.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 30, 2009, at 11:52:38
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by linkadge on August 30, 2009, at 11:21:16
> Also, I found that rTMS was much less effective when I used it in conjunction with anticonvulsants.
> I actually got symptoms of serotonin syndrome when combined with lithium.
That is a very astute observation. With ECT induced currents, lithium is absorbed into the tissue more readily. I imagine such would be the same with rTMS induced currents.
Please refresh my memory. How does lithium work to enhance serotonergic neurotransmission?
By the way, how are you feeling today?
I am very encouraged that you have been able to continue with your trial of amitriptyline.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 30, 2009, at 11:54:15
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by morganator on August 30, 2009, at 11:33:17
> > I remember 10Hz (left prefrontal) working better. But then again, this was my home-made machiene.
> >
> > Linkadge
>
> Huh??? Home machine????
Yup.:-)
He did it.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on August 30, 2009, at 13:14:30
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression? » linkadge, posted by SLS on August 30, 2009, at 11:52:38
>Please refresh my memory. How does lithium work >to enhance serotonergic neurotransmission?
It interacts with the 5-ht1b presynaptic autoreceptors. It appears to functionally inhibit their acitivity thus reducing inhibition on serotonin release (in certain areas of the brain).
rTMS appears to desensitize the 5-ht1a and 5-ht1b serotonin autoreceptors. Perhaps the combination of downregulation and antagonism leads to greatly diminished autoreceptor function.
I just remember that whenever I took lithium within about a week of using the machiene I got major chills. The other possibility is that the rTMS somehow functionally sensitized the post synaptic 5-ht1a receptors in the hypothalamus leading to the chills side effect.
>By the way, how are you feeling today?Pretty good
>I am very encouraged that you have been able to >continue with your trial of amitriptyline.
Yeah, I'm not really having any problems with it.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 30, 2009, at 13:16:15
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by morganator on August 30, 2009, at 11:33:17
>Huh??? Home machine????
Don't ask :)
Linkadge
Posted by floatingbridge on August 30, 2009, at 14:01:43
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by SLS on August 30, 2009, at 11:47:05
Scott--the best with this. I'm curious, too.
fb
Posted by Phillipa on August 30, 2009, at 18:54:55
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by linkadge on August 30, 2009, at 13:16:15
Link I remember when you invented your own machine. Phillipa
Posted by Meltingpot on September 6, 2009, at 9:00:09
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by linkadge on August 30, 2009, at 13:16:15
Linkadge,
:-) I remember you making the machine as well. Why did you stop using it?
Denise
Posted by TriedEveryDrug on November 14, 2009, at 21:21:48
In reply to rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression?, posted by SLS on August 29, 2009, at 16:39:30
> I might be interested in trying magnetic therapy. Does anyone know which frequency is more effective: 10Hz or 20Hz?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - ScottHere is the neurostar user manual. maybe there is something useful in there.
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/DOCKETS/ac/07/briefing/2007-4273b1_15-NeuroStarUserManualRevision.pdf
Also, I leafed through an academic book Pascual-Leone) I have on tms, nothing in there.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 14, 2009, at 21:29:36
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression? » SLS, posted by TriedEveryDrug on November 14, 2009, at 21:21:48
I only see treatment for agitation and anxiety?
> > I might be interested in trying magnetic therapy. Does anyone know which frequency is more effective: 10Hz or 20Hz?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Here is the neurostar user manual. maybe there is something useful in there.
>
> http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/DOCKETS/ac/07/briefing/2007-4273b1_15-NeuroStarUserManualRevision.pdf
>
> Also, I leafed through an academic book Pascual-Leone) I have on tms, nothing in there.
Posted by SLS on November 15, 2009, at 2:55:45
In reply to Re: rTMS - Best Frequency for Depression? » SLS, posted by TriedEveryDrug on November 14, 2009, at 21:21:48
This is the end of the thread.
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