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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 47. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on September 25, 2009, at 3:17:07
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by morganator on September 25, 2009, at 3:00:25
> I don't think Peter Breggin is totally opposed to using psychiatric medicine. I will have to research that to be sure.
It would be interesting to find out what he would do to treat mental illness if he is against the use of medication.
- Scott
Posted by metafunj on September 25, 2009, at 7:47:37
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin? » metafunj, posted by doxogenic boy on September 24, 2009, at 14:28:15
Thanks for the info about nortryptiline but I will just stop Wellbutrin, hasn't done much but make me feel tweaked and twitch a lot.
Posted by jillybug on September 27, 2009, at 1:33:05
In reply to Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by Phillipa on September 20, 2009, at 13:05:56
I have found Dr. Breggins web site tremendously helpful in my quest to withdrawal from medication that I never should have taken in the first place. There is no scientific proof of chemical imbalance. There is no way that the brain can be tested for imbalance. I believe that the drug manufacturers are indeed padding their own pockets. If you go to: http://www.furiousseasons.com/ you can download and read documents that were leaked from companies such as Lily that they suppressed information about negative case studies for some of their psychiatric drugs. I am not trying to encourage people to not take their medication or claiming that you do not need to be on medication. You can also find on Youtube interviews with Dr. Breggin about his ideas that medication is not the answer. He also has a psychiatric practice in New York. No one does not have to agree with 100% of what he says. On his website you can read his case studies or theories about what these medications do to our brains. I personally have benefitted from reading his theories to come to some sort of understanding to what has happened to me as a result of taking these meds.
Posted by Jeroen on September 27, 2009, at 15:57:12
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by Phillipa on September 20, 2009, at 13:09:33
he's anti psychiatry i think
Posted by SLS on September 27, 2009, at 19:15:15
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by jillybug on September 27, 2009, at 1:33:05
Hi.
> There is no scientific proof of chemical imbalance.
Let us say, for the moment, that you are right. What do you feel is the etiologies of major depressive disorder, bipolar disorder, and schizophrenia?
> There is no way that the brain can be tested for imbalance.
How do you know this?
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on September 28, 2009, at 18:23:58
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by jillybug on September 27, 2009, at 1:33:05
I think jillybug makes some good points. I wish it were simple, but it aint. As I said in my previous response, psychiatry and Breggin both have pros and cons.
For sure some of us have experienced dramatic biochemical changes post longterm ssri usage. Why or how, who knows. Breggin has some theoretical explanations. My doctor has some similar explanations (stuff like receptors growing in new shapes, receptor densities being permanently changed, gene instructions being permanently altererd, stuff like that).
I personally believe however that all antidepressants are being lumped into the same category as if they were all guilty, when in fact I feel it is the reuptake inhibitors that are the guilty ones. There is something about that mechanism, I can't put my finger on it, that is just so not cool. That's a very disruptive and un-natural thing to do. The MAOIs on the other hand, I fully endorse. Some people have naturally low MAO activity, and they might be the Type A personalities...bouncy, joyous, energetic. Some people might have naturally high MAO activity, and thus prone to depression and fatigue. Adjusting MAO through meds works in harmony with natural processes, whereas reuptake inhibition does not. My hypothetical beliefs anyway.
SLS asked how do we know that we can't test for brain chemical imbalances? My answer to that is because SLS doesn't know. If anyone would know, Scott you would know. And Larry. To the best of my knowledge the closest we can come is to measure neurotransmitters in the spinal fluid. But even so, what does that tell us? The results would likely vary from one healthy person to the next, so would be difficult to extrapolate from. And it gives no clue as to what is going on at the receptor level. Just because serotonin appears normal, how do we know the receptors are clogged with lead or deformed from some environmental or genetic insult? We don't. How do we know the serotonin isn't being contaminated with exotoxins from unsuspected infectious organisms, and that it is that causing the depression not the serotonin? We don't.
Complicated stuff. It could go on forever. The best we can all do is the best we think we should do at a given time. For one person that means psych meds one after another. For another person it means visiting a Chinese herbalist. For another person it means seeing Breggin. For another person it means buying some St Johns Wort. For another person it means joining a gym and running 10 miles a day. For another person it means recalling that tick bite 15 years ago. For another person it means getting the huge chunks of silver out of their teeth.
So as I think about it, any debate between Breggin and psychiatry is actually a microdebate within a much larger picture.
Posted by SLS on September 28, 2009, at 19:22:38
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by bleauberry on September 28, 2009, at 18:23:58
> SLS asked how do we know that we can't test for brain chemical imbalances? My answer to that is because SLS doesn't know.
Excuse me?
Your presumption is in error.
There is so much evidence, I wouldn't know where to start. PET scans perhaps?
Don't bother.
- Scott
Posted by morganator on September 28, 2009, at 23:03:33
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by jillybug on September 27, 2009, at 1:33:05
>You may be one of thousands of people that had a situational or mild to moderate depression that never should have been treated with medication, especially as a first line treatment. That said, medication is necessary for thousands of others.
> I have found Dr. Breggins web site tremendously helpful in my quest to withdrawal from medication that I never should have taken in the first place. There is no scientific proof of chemical imbalance. There is no way that the brain can be tested for imbalance. I believe that the drug manufacturers are indeed padding their own pockets. If you go to: http://www.furiousseasons.com/ you can download and read documents that were leaked from companies such as Lily that they suppressed information about negative case studies for some of their psychiatric drugs. I am not trying to encourage people to not take their medication or claiming that you do not need to be on medication. You can also find on Youtube interviews with Dr. Breggin about his ideas that medication is not the answer. He also has a psychiatric practice in New York. No one does not have to agree with 100% of what he says. On his website you can read his case studies or theories about what these medications do to our brains. I personally have benefitted from reading his theories to come to some sort of understanding to what has happened to me as a result of taking these meds.
Posted by metafunj on September 29, 2009, at 11:17:31
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by bleauberry on September 28, 2009, at 18:23:58
<<For sure some of us have experienced dramatic biochemical changes post longterm ssri usage. Why or how, who knows. Breggin has some theoretical explanations. My doctor has some similar explanations (stuff like receptors growing in new shapes, receptor densities being permanently changed, gene instructions being permanently altererd, stuff like that).
Does Breggin have any ideas on how to reverse any of these things?
Posted by bleauberry on September 29, 2009, at 19:52:28
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin? » bleauberry, posted by SLS on September 28, 2009, at 19:22:38
Scott I may be misinterpreting, because sometimes when all you can see is words on paper and not the person's facial expressions or tone of voice, it is easy to be mistaken. But when I said we can't test for brain chemical imbalances it was because you asked how do we know we can't. I simply figured, gosh, if Scott doesn't, then there must be no way. I surely don't know how to measure an imbalance. Amounts yes, imbalances no. Who is to say what a so-called proper balance is for person A, person B, or person C?
I do know we can measure amounts of brain chemicals in various regions of the brain and how various drugs change those concentrations, but that doesn't do a thing for determining if it is an "out-of-balance" or not.
Your comment "don't bother". I'm puzzled by that?
I find it curious how there is sometimes antagonism directed at those who declare there may be something else to consider, that just happens to rock the boat of what is commonly assumed. I sensed antagonism in your voice. But I know it wasn't. Just a misinterpretation I'm sure.
> > SLS asked how do we know that we can't test for brain chemical imbalances? My answer to that is because SLS doesn't know.
>
> Excuse me?
>
> Your presumption is in error.
>
> There is so much evidence, I wouldn't know where to start. PET scans perhaps?
>
> Don't bother.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Posted by SLS on September 30, 2009, at 6:36:23
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin? » SLS, posted by bleauberry on September 29, 2009, at 19:52:28
Not only can brain imaging demonstrate pathology, they can even predict drug responses.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/709155?src=mp&spon=12&uac=41170BN
In 1997, I proposed (on another Internet forum - alt.support.depression) that various compounds, including therapeutic drugs, could be used as biological probes to determine choices of psychotropic drugs to treat mental illness based upon their effect on brain activity as detected through PET scans. I was laughed at then. Pretty cool, eh?
- Scott
Posted by metafunj on September 30, 2009, at 11:21:40
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by SLS on September 30, 2009, at 6:36:23
wanna give us your medscape password so we can read it? ;-)
Posted by yxibow on September 30, 2009, at 14:41:26
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by metafunj on September 30, 2009, at 11:21:40
> wanna give us your medscape password so we can read it? ;-)
>
>You can sign up for an account....
Posted by sowhysosad on September 30, 2009, at 17:34:18
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by SLS on September 30, 2009, at 6:36:23
I've seen some pretty convincing PET scans online which reveal brain abnormalities linked to specific disorders - for example, abnormal basal ganglia function in people with PTSD.
It's clear PET scans could be a useful tool in diagnosing mental illness and devising treatment strategies.
And whilst the actual mechanism by which current antidepressants heal the brain is still pretty fuzzy, there are heaps of evidence that they are effective in many people.
> Not only can brain imaging demonstrate pathology, they can even predict drug responses.
>
> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/709155?src=mp&spon=12&uac=41170BN
>
> In 1997, I proposed (on another Internet forum - alt.support.depression) that various compounds, including therapeutic drugs, could be used as biological probes to determine choices of psychotropic drugs to treat mental illness based upon their effect on brain activity as detected through PET scans. I was laughed at then. Pretty cool, eh?
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by bleauberry on September 30, 2009, at 17:45:49
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by SLS on September 30, 2009, at 6:36:23
> Not only can brain imaging demonstrate pathology, they can even predict drug responses.
>
> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/709155?src=mp&spon=12&uac=41170BN
>
> In 1997, I proposed (on another Internet forum - alt.support.depression) that various compounds, including therapeutic drugs, could be used as biological probes to determine choices of psychotropic drugs to treat mental illness based upon their effect on brain activity as detected through PET scans. I was laughed at then. Pretty cool, eh?
>
>
> - ScottYeah Scott, that is indeed very cool. You shouldn't have been so deceptive in asking earlier "how do you know" when you knew all along....:-)
I can immediately see how we could also test the body via various drug trials to find out what is really going on. I won't mention the subject since people here scream at me out loud when I bring it up all the time. But one can probably fill in the blanks. Certain drugs are specific for certain things. The certain reaction gives a high confidence diagnosis of the unseen.
Kind of the same thing as challenging the brain with various drugs to see how it behaves on a scan. We can challenge the body with various drugs to see how it responds, on the topic of infectious disease instead of psychiatry.
But boy oh boy do I take some heat for even mentioning it. It does require a trained eye which is why my doctor uses that strategy all the time.
Always good talking with you Scott. Thank you for sharing.
Posted by Phillipa on September 30, 2009, at 20:20:40
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by SLS on September 30, 2009, at 6:36:23
Scott now you know me. But if only after l week someone could give those high odds that a med would work I'd definitely stick it out. I do mean that. How do you get this test? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on October 1, 2009, at 6:27:50
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin? » SLS, posted by Phillipa on September 30, 2009, at 20:20:40
> Scott now you know me. But if only after l week someone could give those high odds that a med would work I'd definitely stick it out. I do mean that. How do you get this test? Phillipa
Although QEEG (quantitative electroencephalography) testing is available for various psychometric and diagnostic purposes, I doubt it is yet recognized for the purposes described in the article. I imagine that it will take some time in order to repeat the results of the experiment and refine the procedure. QEEG would be cost-effective when compared to PET scans. I hope it becomes more so over time as it now costs about $500.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on October 1, 2009, at 19:40:03
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin? » Phillipa, posted by SLS on October 1, 2009, at 6:27:50
Scott $500 is nothing compared to what I've spent on the basket of meds in the cabinet. I'd gladly withdraw from savings to obtain this test. Guess I won't get to see it though. Phillipa
Posted by morganator on October 1, 2009, at 23:59:31
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin? » SLS, posted by bleauberry on September 30, 2009, at 17:45:49
I thought chapter 6 of this was very interesting.
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2009, at 6:28:47
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by morganator on October 1, 2009, at 23:59:31
I know this sounds overly simplistic, but I wonder if it is atrophy from disuse that causes a decrease in hippocampal tissue volume with depression. That most antidepressants seem to reverse this trend and produce neurogenesis might be best explained by the increase in brain activity associated with remission of depression producing greater use of these tissues, and thus stimulate their recovery. The primary dysregulation in depression might be occurring upstream of the hippocampus.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2009, at 19:46:10
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by SLS on October 2, 2009, at 6:28:47
Raised by Dr Spock's book wonder how that fits in? I know no demand feeding, and a schedule for the baby strictly adherred to? Phillipa
Posted by morganator on October 2, 2009, at 21:17:14
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by SLS on October 2, 2009, at 6:28:47
That definitely sounds like a reasonable explanation. Sometimes the simple ones are the most accurate. I think it also has something to do with the increase in brain derived neurotrophic factor(BDNF) with antidepressants and some mood stabilizers.
Posted by morganator on October 2, 2009, at 21:22:14
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by morganator on October 2, 2009, at 21:17:14
Not sure if this is accurate but here is some info. on fish oil and DHA and EPA.
Posted by morganator on October 2, 2009, at 21:26:07
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2009, at 19:46:10
> Raised by Dr Spock's book wonder how that fits in? I know no demand feeding, and a schedule for the baby strictly adherred to? Phillipa
Love and nurture play a major role. If a child has a mother that is stressed or depressed, the child will absorb this negative energy. Fighting between parents or any type of disruption can effect a child's development. I don't think people realize how much our environment influenced our development.
Posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2009, at 21:33:50
In reply to Re: Who Is Peter Breggin?, posted by morganator on October 2, 2009, at 21:26:07
Well finally a reason. Story of my life. Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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