![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Monica L on September 26, 2009, at 18:59:15
So after going over everything with the Dr., he suggested ECT. I had been considering it but was so set on trying MAOIs that it took me by surprise when he mentioned ECT. I'm willing to go through with it, I've been reading some books about it and the benefits seem to outweigh the risks. The Dr. did say I would have some short term memory loss, which I don't mind. I would like to know of any experiences with ECT anyone has had. Good and bad, what should I expect when I wake up? How should I prepare myself?
Thanks so much!!!
Posted by ricker on September 26, 2009, at 19:33:27
In reply to First time ECT, posted by Monica L on September 26, 2009, at 18:59:15
You are correct in stating "good and bad" experiences but that can be said of meds as well?
I had a 2 week course of ECT in 1989 and yes, short-term memory loss was apparent, according to my family members!!
Looking back, I suppose it helped in the long run as I remained stable for some 10 years on anafranil.
My current p/doc is pro ECT but I've yet to reach that level again. I would accept the treatment if I had exhausted all options.... I have no negative long-term effects from ECT so if you and your p/doc feel it's a positive treatment option then I'd say listen to your doctor?
Best of luck,Regards, Rick
Posted by Phillipa on September 26, 2009, at 19:36:16
In reply to Re: First time ECT » Monica L, posted by ricker on September 26, 2009, at 19:33:27
Ricker glad you spoke up with a positive experience for Monica. Phillipa
Posted by ricker on September 26, 2009, at 19:42:18
In reply to Re: First time ECT » ricker, posted by Phillipa on September 26, 2009, at 19:36:16
> Ricker glad you spoke up with a positive experience for Monica. Phillipa
Hi Jan, I'm sure for every positive comment one could expect to read many negatives :-(
Even the Forum member's here will have their own thoughts/comments so I felt it necessary to offer some positive feedback.Take care, Rick
Posted by bleauberry on September 26, 2009, at 20:24:13
In reply to First time ECT, posted by Monica L on September 26, 2009, at 18:59:15
It seems like this topic comes up about once a month. Maybe I should just copy and paste a prepared response so I don't have to rewrite it from scratch each time. Anyway, for what it's worth, here goes.
*12 bilateral treatments.
*Total cost $22,000, insurance paid most but I still had to pay several thousand dollars in copay.
*Complete memory loss of the 3 months prior to ECT and the 3 months after ECT that has not returned in the 3 years since ECT.
*Random parts of memory throughout life are gone.
*Random parts of memory throughout life are fuzzy.
*Random parts of memory throughout life are clear as day.
*Creative function significantly increased.
*Cognitive function significantly decreased, especially in areas of name recall, word recall, and short term memory.
*A two day response at the end of the 12th treatment, followed by an ambulance ride to the emergency room attempting suicide.
*St Johns Wort worked better than ECT.There have been a few people here over the years, including a post about a month ago, that have had respectable results with ECT. In the real world, results are not anything close to what your doctor claims. If someone has not tried both MAOIs, and they have not tried a blind challenge test of Doxycycline for Lyme disease, they have absolutely no business whatsoever thinking of ECT.
So what does science say? Well, responders can count on relapse at a very high rate, something like 85% relapse rate, within weeks to months.
ECT in my view is good for those who are so mentally ill they cannot leave the hospital. It can get them well enough to enter a halfway house, though they will never be well enough to live on their own or hold a job. Statistics show their hospitals stays are reduced (not eliminated) and their stays are shorter.
Psychiatry itself is a gamble. It makes no effort to find what is really wrong. It relies on flawed studies and flawed politics to make educated guesses that a particular chemical will reduce a particular symptom, with no thought whatsoever as to what the cause or cure of that symptom is. Doctors wonder why they don't get the same results in their practice as clinical studies did.
ECT is a huge gamble, and the odds of a jackpot are very slim.
If I were you, I would insist on two things:
1. Parnate first choice, Nardil backup, stimulants as backup.
2. Add an Integrative MD to your team, so as to explore what is really going on under the skin that is impacting your brain the way it is.I can say one good thing about ECT. It is kind of like closing an old book and starting a brand new one. Whether it works or not, enough memory is lost that it is kind of like a fresh start. Even if the depression isn't tons better, at least it won't seem like the end of a very long journey. Because of the memory loss, it is kind of like the beginning of a new one. So there is more hope and more strength to take another shot at life, even if things aren't any better.
Don't let anyone fool you. Memory loss from ECT is frequently severe and permanent. Cognitive impairment is almost guaranteed. Responders and remitters are not more frequent than with meds. Responders and remitters have very high relapse rates. Responders and remitters require continued psychiatric drugs after ECT to slow down the onset of relapse.
Parnate sounds a whole lot better. And dirt cheap. You qualified to try this drug years ago.
Get an Integrative MD! Amalgam fillings, ever? What does your 4 sample daily cortisol curve look like? What does your Igenex Lab Western Blot test indicate? What happens if you try 3 days of Wormwood? What happens if you try 3 days of Doxycylcine? 3 days of Diflucan?
You gotta know this stuff before you go hook your brain up to electricity and shock yourself so hard they have to pump you full of barbituates to keep your body from convulsing off the table.
Oh, you asked what's it like when you wake up? Well, you probably won't remember. Someone will pick you up and drive you home, but you will not likely have any rememberance of that day or surrounding days.
Posted by Phillipa on September 26, 2009, at 21:56:09
In reply to Re: First time ECT, posted by bleauberry on September 26, 2009, at 20:24:13
No lymes no mercury please let her and her doc decide. Please don't scare this new member of our forum for support. We're not doctors just people. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on September 27, 2009, at 0:46:16
In reply to Re: First time ECT, posted by bleauberry on September 26, 2009, at 20:24:13
Blueberry I would like to apologize as I just did a google search on why my thyroid gland out of the blue today started to hurt. The lymes, chronic adrenal fatigue just might go together my search came up with a blog on thyroid depression and viola lymes and adrenal fatigue all there. I do apologize for my ignorance. Love Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on September 27, 2009, at 6:51:31
In reply to Re: First time ECT » bleauberry, posted by Phillipa on September 26, 2009, at 21:56:09
> No lymes no mercury please let her and her doc decide. Please don't scare this new member of our forum for support. We're not doctors just people. Love Phillipa
I'm not trying to scare anyone. I'm just sharing an experience and sharing the results of scientific evaluations of ECT. What the reader does with it is up to them.
In terms of Lyme or mercury, those are high on the list of biochemical causes of stubborn depression that psychiatry seems impotent to help much. So as long as people come here looking for information, education, and options, I will continue to mention them. To not do so would be gross negligence. While you have heard the Lyme, mercury, and adrenal fatigue stuff over and over till you're sick of it, new people have never heard of it. They need to know.
What they do with it is up to them. It is my job, and all of our jobs, to share information we have.
What if I see someone about to cross the street and get hit by a bus? Do I stand and watch? Afraid to get involved? Afraid to say anything? Afraid to look stupid? NO, I will attempt to save that person's life. I do the same here everyday with the seemingly crazy, but not, stories of infectious diseases, metals, and other biochemical disruptions that all impact the brain like nuclear bombs.
Back to the original topic, I am obviously not a fan of ECT unless, and only if, everything I've mentioned in my two posts here have been thoroughly tried and explored.
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on September 27, 2009, at 7:52:22
In reply to First time ECT, posted by Monica L on September 26, 2009, at 18:59:15
> So after going over everything with the Dr., he suggested ECT. I had been considering it but was so set on trying MAOIs that it took me by surprise when he mentioned ECT. I'm willing to go through with it, I've been reading some books about it and the benefits seem to outweigh the risks. The Dr. did say I would have some short term memory loss, which I don't mind. I would like to know of any experiences with ECT anyone has had. Good and bad, what should I expect when I wake up? How should I prepare myself?
>
> Thanks so much!!!
Could you make a summary of what you have tried?
Posted by gibbons482 on September 27, 2009, at 10:12:04
In reply to First time ECT, posted by Monica L on September 26, 2009, at 18:59:15
I've had 12 unilateral ECT treatments that literally saved my life. I was in a suicida depression I could not get out of. The memory loss for me was not that bad, just during the time period I had treatment, and some memories are fuzzy others forgotten. What can you expect and how to prepare for it? You'll have not eat or drink anything after midnight the night before, and some medicaitons that inhibit seizures such as Depakote, etc have to be stopped or reduced. You'll go in possibly a few times a week, how often is up to your doctor, and you'll be given a muscle relaxtant mixed with something to knock you out. They'll put a bite guard in your mouth to protect your teeth. You'll wake up a short time later. Sometimes you might have some jaw soreness or a headache. I experienced a slight headache after the first few ECT's, but nothing a couple of Tylenol couldn't knock out.
I know there are people on here who have bad experiences. But unliateral is supposed to cause less memory loss if it matters to you. I've had a very positive experience and 4 months later I'm depression free still. I'm on antidepressants also. I would defintely do it again if it came down to it. Are you just going for one series or is your doctor planning on maintance ECT?
> So after going over everything with the Dr., he suggested ECT. I had been considering it but was so set on trying MAOIs that it took me by surprise when he mentioned ECT. I'm willing to go through with it, I've been reading some books about it and the benefits seem to outweigh the risks. The Dr. did say I would have some short term memory loss, which I don't mind. I would like to know of any experiences with ECT anyone has had. Good and bad, what should I expect when I wake up? How should I prepare myself?
>
> Thanks so much!!!
Posted by linkadge on September 27, 2009, at 11:12:57
In reply to First time ECT, posted by Monica L on September 26, 2009, at 18:59:15
>I've been reading some books about it and the >benefits seem to outweigh the risks
Depends what books you read.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on September 27, 2009, at 20:04:11
In reply to Re: First time ECT » Monica L, posted by gibbons482 on September 27, 2009, at 10:12:04
Gibbons congrats to you. Love Phillipa
Posted by number42 on September 28, 2009, at 14:10:32
In reply to First time ECT, posted by Monica L on September 26, 2009, at 18:59:15
Monica,
I had 24 treatments 11 years ago and it did save my life. Unfortunatly The anti-depressant effects only lasted a few months, and i did suffer short term memory loss-no big deal.
I recommend it if you are suicidal and if you have tried all medications including MAOIs and stimulants. I wish you the very best.
#42 (Monte)
Posted by Phillipa on September 28, 2009, at 19:54:09
In reply to Re: First time ECT » Monica L, posted by number42 on September 28, 2009, at 14:10:32
Well well good to see you!!!!! Phillipa
Posted by alchemy on September 29, 2009, at 17:45:33
In reply to First time ECT, posted by Monica L on September 26, 2009, at 18:59:15
wow, this is the 1st time I've seen so many positive posts about ECT on this board.
There are some negative stories everywhere, so there is some risk. It is the best treatment for a "quick fix". Although the results are usually not completely sustained. I have had 2 times where antidepressants f**d me up really bad. The first time I had about 5-6 treatments and I felt BETTER THAN I HAVE IN MY WHOLE LIFE - for a few weeks. It faded, but I was out of the worst hell that the drug trials put me in. So say that 0 is my usual negative mood, I was a -10 before the ECT. After the ECT I was a +5, but it faded back to a 0.
Maintenance ECT works for some people, even without drugs. I know a nurse that just gets a treatment once a month. But once I was back to a 0, ECT didn't seem to help. But if I get really bad & back to a -10, I know I have ECT to help.
Memory loss - usually. It was just the short term stuff and some things came back (for me). The closer the treatments are together, the higher the possibility.
You go to the hospital, change into the famous gown, get an IV, take a ride on a cart, get put under & I think you wake up like 15-20 min. later. I didn't have much of a headache and sometimes actually went to work the same day (although I would have to get a ride).
Posted by atypical on September 29, 2009, at 22:22:40
In reply to First time ECT, posted by Monica L on September 26, 2009, at 18:59:15
For my roommate I had at a clinic for six weeks, it was a MIRACLE. He e-mailed us a few weeks ago. After 30 years of depression ECT MADE HIM DEPRESSION FREE. He has a new life, and a renewed relationship with his wife. He goes to therapy now ever other week and takes a med. And has maintenance ECT every so often.
For me, ECT sucked. It was one of the darkest times of my life. I felt disoriented and had some memory problems. It helped the depression marginally. I couldn't imagine having to keep getting treatments. I had 11 done, and after that my veins were swollen from IV so they couldn't to the procedure any longer unless I had a "port" installed. I said "f" this.
Posted by jerrypharmstudent on September 30, 2009, at 18:40:25
In reply to Re: First time ECT, posted by bleauberry on September 27, 2009, at 6:51:31
I have to agree with bleauberry on everything said - I had ECt too and I would NEVER recommend it to anyone. The memory loss is severe and not limited to short-term memories. Cognitive decline is also prevalent.
Try an MAOI if you haven't already. There are SOOO many med options even if you feel as though you've done them all. I'm surviving well on a combination of stimulant+SSRI+anti-psychotic. Adderall +Lexapro +Geodon. The addition of Geodon made all the difference and I've been treatment resistant for 17 years. I even had the VNS implant.
So please rethink your decision to go forth with ECT.
just my 2 cents.
Posted by Phillipa on September 30, 2009, at 19:35:06
In reply to Re: First time ECT, posted by jerrypharmstudent on September 30, 2009, at 18:40:25
I remember a girl when first out of nursing school decided psych nursing first. The first day there the staff were utterly amazed evidently this girl had been about comatose and after only one treatment of Ect she was acting normal, fixing hair, talking to people. The staff actually doubted she'd ever been depressed the result was so dramatic? So who knows? Phillipa
Posted by Zyprexa on October 3, 2009, at 21:54:12
In reply to First time ECT, posted by Monica L on September 26, 2009, at 18:59:15
The more ECTs the more the memory loss. I had about 30 I'll guess, in one year. And the memory loss for 10 years and still don't remember things. One ECT I remember waking up from I literaly didn't know anything, I could look around the room and not know what I was looking at. Not to mention I thought I had just been born, till I looked at my legs. They were big. I don't recomend ECT if there is a drug that could work. I also had thought blocking for a while, where I could not understand things or basicly think. I could not tell much about the first few ECTs because I have no memorys of them. Except that I lived in a strange dream phase. Its been a battle to get my memory back. I last had ECTs in '97, and just getting sort of back to normal.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.