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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by whitmore on September 3, 2009, at 10:25:33
I am absurdly sensitive to many meds--anti depressants and now, it seems, mood stabilizers. I am trying to start Lamictal and started with 1/4 of a 25 mg pill. This resulted in extreme panic/insomnia(despite Ambien CR) and what seemed like a loss of IQ of about 40 points(trust me, I can't spare them) and with extreme confusion/memory problems. Work was a nightmare. Last night I tried halving the dose, with much the same result--had to take .75 mg of Klonopin to get to sleep. I have had the same experience with homeopathic doses of Trileptal and Neurontin--insomnia/panic/confusion. Strangely, Dilantin, prescribed by an 'alternative' doctor did not have this effect, though I only took 25 mg, and it was helpful--calming with no confusion. I went off it as my 'mainstream' doctor was horrified that I should be taking such a dangerous medication.
Anyway, the point of this message to ask if anyone knows if this indicates incipient Alzheimer's or some other kind of brain damage? It's as if my brain can only appear to function normally if there is absolutely no chemical disruption. Like I have nothing in reserve. I'm 58 and very frightened.
Thanks, as always, to anyone who takes the trouble to reply.
Posted by Phillipa on September 3, 2009, at 12:40:54
In reply to Lamictal intolerance sign of brain damage??, posted by whitmore on September 3, 2009, at 10:25:33
Beat you on the age 63 here but somehow I've never "bought meds". Why? If side effects make someone worse how can you get better? And if the brain adjusts isn't it different forever? I tried lamictal and had no problem but excess salivation on it that was intolerable so stopped at 50mg. They say the older you get the less meds you need as older organs don't process meds as well. Seems that benzos, Dilantin, even chloral hydrate worked well. Sorry I'm not much help. Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on September 3, 2009, at 18:07:08
In reply to Lamictal intolerance sign of brain damage??, posted by whitmore on September 3, 2009, at 10:25:33
Most senior citizens are able to take lowish to medium doses of mood stabilizers and antidepressants. Alzheimer patients are usually able to take standard doses of a variety meds simultaneously. So in my opinion, the supersensitivity is a separate issue with a different cause.
Many integrative MD websites and my doctor say that these oversensitivites are correlated with immune system dysfunction, intestinal dysfunction, infectious organisms, and heavy metals. But, all of these go hand in hand, one causes the other, so it is the norm rather than the exception to have more than one pathology going on. There is no solid scientific research in this area. Instead, it just happens that when doctors are presented with med sensitivities, those other conditions are usually present as well. Those other conditions were likely suspects in causing the original symptoms in the first place long before med sensitivity set in.
Top contenders to look at:
Candida.
Microbial diseases such as Borellia, Babesia, Bartonella, Mycoplasma.
Heavy metal accumulation, especially if you have or ever had silver fillings in your teeth.
Longterm serotonin reuptake inhibitor usage (don't know why this happens, but a strange med sensitivity has been reported frequently enough to justify taking a closer look at this phenomemon, or at the very least, acknowledging that something weird is going on with some of the longterm post-ssri users. Me included)I am super med sensitive. Many doctors. Many tests. Many trials. All of the above causes are things I am treating, so while this stuff sounds foreign and greek to most people on a psychiatric board, it is well known to thousands of others.
It could be that for some unknown reason those mood stabilizers were just horribly wrong molecules for your unique physiology. If you were equally sensitive to antidepressants or stimulants, then I would say it is a body-wide response, not simply a brain response. Some other hidden culprit.
Dilantin...if it helped and there was no sensitivity, I think that doctor was an idiot to refuse it to you. The very least he/she should have done is offered to monitor your liver and such and help you keep an eye on it. There is at least one book written by a famous person who was cured with Dilantin when nothing else worked and he was on it a long time. There is too much about the body, science, and the unknown, for any single doctor to know it all. So for any doctor to say Dilantin is too dangerous and refuse you the benefit you get from does not sound like good medicine to me.
They call it "practicing medicine" for a reason.
Posted by whitmore on September 4, 2009, at 16:32:18
In reply to Re: Lamictal intolerance sign of brain damage??, posted by bleauberry on September 3, 2009, at 18:07:08
Bleauberry: Thanks so much for taking the trouble to respond to my post. I have long suspected some heavy metal toxicity, most likely Hg, as I have all sorts of hormonal issues, which I'm sure contribute to the emotional problems. Growing up in London in the 50's, I had fillings galore, which have been replaced with ever larger ones over the years. I'm attempting to get rid of them all and then I will chelate. Meanwhile, at least my sensitivity makes for inexpensive med. bills!! Whitmore.
Posted by bleauberry on September 4, 2009, at 19:44:10
In reply to Re: Lamictal intolerance sign of brain damage?? » bleauberry, posted by whitmore on September 4, 2009, at 16:32:18
> Bleauberry: Thanks so much for taking the trouble to respond to my post. I have long suspected some heavy metal toxicity, most likely Hg, as I have all sorts of hormonal issues, which I'm sure contribute to the emotional problems. Growing up in London in the 50's, I had fillings galore, which have been replaced with ever larger ones over the years. I'm attempting to get rid of them all and then I will chelate. Meanwhile, at least my sensitivity makes for inexpensive med. bills!! Whitmore.
Your description certainly fits "amalgam illness" in a picture perfect manner. So you don't feel alone, be it known there are thousands in your shoes, many already improved, many in the process, many just discovering, and many who haven't a clue what the heck is wrong.
A book called Amalgam Illness by PHD Andrew Cutler is a must read for you. Inexpensive, probably the best book you'll ever buy. You will learn all about the history and politics behind amalgams, current debates, and in striking detail exactly what Hg does in every part of the human biology. And it has the best safest chelation method on the planet, chock full of tips for supplements, herbs, and meds to help individual symptoms along the journey back.
At chelation forums, nearly universal symptoms with everyone include hormonal issues of the adrenals and/or thyroid, and unusual senisitivities to meds and/or foods. Where there is mercury, there are always psychiatric symptoms as well. Everything from mild depression to bizarre psychosis.
You definitely want those amalgams gone. I see no higher priority in your life at this point. As long as they stay, you die a slow premature death, one grueling odd symptom after another.
I am well informed on the science of testing and chelation methods, so when you get the poison removed from the mouth, let me know if there is anything I can do to help. Until then, there really is nothing you can do except take a high intake of antioxidants and Selenium, which binds with mercury to help minimize its effects.
You can pretty much assume you also have an unsuspected yeast overgrowth going on, so it would be wise to study up on candida diets, start them, and start some herbs that kill them. They basically take some otherwise harmless mercury and make it quite toxic, right in your gut to be absorbed.
If you saw the video on youtube of mercury vapor rising off an extracted tooth with an amalgam in it, you would be shocked.
Dentists can take saliva samples before and after chewing a piece of gum, to show the difference of mercury content in your saliva after the aggravation of chewing.
You definitely do not want to do any kind of chelation at this time. It will only dissolve more of the mercury in your mouth and poison you worse.
Are there other possible causes for your problems? Maybe it's not mercury? I am one of many who did not fully embrace the concept when my Nurse Practioner first pointed it out. It was a full two years later of more and more weird things piling up that I finally said ok, there is something to this amalgam stuff. I got them replaced. Then I did a DMSA urine challenge test a month later after things settled down. The mercury and lead were in the highly elevated range. Actually, now when I pull that chart out and look at it, it still terrifies me.
Who would ever think something as common and accepted as amalgams could do so much bad? In the book Amalgam Illness, it is all explained how it came to be. A common error of man, with assumption being the usual downfall. And the politics of denial. It is a complicated but fascinating history.
Many countries and states now outlaw the use of amalgam fillings.
Some people have excellent genetic detoxification pathways that allow them to have a few small amalgams for a lifetime and never have any symptoms. Most are not that fortunate.
Posted by Jeroen on September 6, 2009, at 16:18:00
In reply to Lamictal intolerance sign of brain damage??, posted by whitmore on September 3, 2009, at 10:25:33
i have brain damage from lamictal psychosis, your symptoms look a like
quit it, no med should treat you like this
Posted by yxibow on September 6, 2009, at 21:33:07
In reply to YES!!!!!!, posted by Jeroen on September 6, 2009, at 16:18:00
> i have brain damage from lamictal psychosis, your symptoms look a like
>
> quit it, no med should treat you like thisJeroen... what looks alike to you, may not be someone's else's experience.
You have the right to believe what you want about Lamictal, but a week of it doesnt cause "brain damage".
Posted by Jeroen on September 7, 2009, at 2:03:13
In reply to Re: YES!!!!!! » Jeroen, posted by yxibow on September 6, 2009, at 21:33:07
yxibow is misinformed about psychiatry!
you can get TD from day 3, lol
i hope you know now
Posted by yxibow on September 7, 2009, at 4:46:10
In reply to yxibow is misinformed about psychiatry!, posted by Jeroen on September 7, 2009, at 2:03:13
> yxibow is misinformed about psychiatry!
Now Jeroen, you have been through a lot, but this is an ad hominem comment which I have always been careful to try not to direct to you, and is a generalization.
> you can get TD from day 3, lolThere's nothing amusing or funny about Tardive Dyskinesia, or at least you have shown us pictures of yourself that appear to be TD and you haven't been amused then (although I keep telling that you should have a complete exam by a neurologist trained in movement disorders to determine exactly what was or is going on, because there are a lot of explanations including, although I don't know if you have schizophrenia, that the movements of those with such related disorders can 'mimic' TD at times).
And there have never been any cases reported that I'm possibly aware of in psychiatry that you can get TARDIVE (that's late, years) dyskinesia after a three day set of pills. They're not antibiotics, you're not getting anaphylaxis. (See ID, below)
That being said, what is harder to prove, as except in severe cases only the patient knows, is Tardive Dystonia, I have gotten in a short period of time. Or at least I think. I took Zyprexa for a month, as it was raised, I had stiffness, amantadine was tried. It was discontinued.
I had some withdrawal dyskinesia (that's normal in abrupt disruption), but gripping pain began to settle in bilaterally and in both my arms and legs -- my biceps/triceps were locked, my legs were like lead and I couldn't swim.
When I finally went back on Seroquel (several trials... it was a bad time), it 'melted' away what I perceived to be TDy. This is consistent that Seroquel, Clozaril, and ironically Zyprexa are controversial but possible treatments for TDy. So is Artane and Cogentin. So is L-Dopa and other dopamine agonists. And so are some benzodiazepines. And in some severe distortions, botox and other such things, I believe.
Do I know if and when I can exist with a smaller amount of Seroquel that what I believe to be TDy will come back, I don't know.Tardive Dystonia resolves in fewer cases than Tardive Dyskinesia but has treatments. Tardive Dyskinesia to this day resolves in at -least- 30% of the time, stays about the same in the other third, and becomes worst in the remaining.
To this day there are no known mainline treatments for TD, however there have been small trials with tetrabenazine (Nitoman/Xenaxine) that have shown some promise.
Reserpine, the only other dopamine depleter may or may not work in similar ways, but is harsher and a much older agent and has more problems. Tetrabenazine itself can cause long term to permanent pseudoparkinsonism.
Either agent can also cause TD or TDy so it is wise to use them judiciously (and off label from its orphan use for Huntington's) in TD.
> i hope you know now
I won't comment other than that's pretty savage -- all of us who have taken or take APs have to live with the fact that while the likelihood of TD within an unknown amount of years is small with the new atypicals (Risperdal has been one that has shown more), the average is still 5% per year for an unknown amount of cumulative effects.
The potential for TD is cumulative of all APs, but how cumulative and how it affects different people is quite disparate. I happen to be sensitive to APs and have developed a -non tardive- tic syndrome both orofacially and in my right index finger (whether doctor's opinions on that one matter or not, I took Risperdal and Prozac for a short time and the tic is still there, but only when I'm taking an AP and only when I'm more upset.)
In fact TD, TDy, as well as other motor control conditions, pseudo (or not) parkinsonism are accentuated by stress and psychological issuesm as are a lot of things in life.
Now as for your comment about 3 days, dropping a load of APs, not 3 days, but maybe after 2 weeks, can cause withdrawal dyskinesia (WD), which is not a permanent, but not a pleasant condition, in which various tics and dyskinetic movements may occur for some days to weeks after. They resolve.
Then there is ID, or Initial Dyskinesia. That's the only one that would possibly match your 3 day comment. Oculogyric crisis is one example, usually with fairly potent agents, but could happen to anyone, where out of control eye movement occurs. An emergency use of Benadryl and/or other agents is typically the scenario in this circumstance.
Also, tardive conditions may affect people with affective (Schizoaffective, Bipolar, mood [anxiety, etc] disorders) more than those with strict schizophrenia.Why isn't entirely understood but differences in certain brain structures is part of this as well as how the brain in schizophrenia processes dopamine.
So don't take my extreme sensitivity to this particular class of chemicals and what my brain is going through (you know, its not a solid structure, the chemistry changes over time....) as what is seen in most individuals.
But it doesn't make it any more amusing, and I've been through enough medication to know that I'm fairly informed about what -I- have experienced.I've still said that if you seriously believe that you have permanent brain damage, which is completely out of the scope of what psychiatry would have ever seen, from less than a fortnight of Lamictal, then you may believe what you wish.
As I also have had a extremely serious situation which I already explained with Zyprexa, although it also involved dropping a antidepressant, going into a depressive coma and generally unpleasant things I'm not going to post here.
So while I attribute it to the Zyprexa, and I am sensitive to APs and I would never touch it again, that doesn't mean I am going around and telling people who have been stable on Zyprexa and would be climbing the walls without it to stop it.
You have a lot on your mind, and so do I. I have multiple medications, and I am caught currently still taking Seroquel, only for reasons I'm not going to go longer about, I can't exercise as much these days, hence I am not the -slightly- toned and less overweight person I was some years before, but I am rather overweight.
-- tidings.
Posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2009, at 20:12:25
In reply to Re: yxibow is misinformed about psychiatry! » Jeroen, posted by yxibow on September 7, 2009, at 4:46:10
Jay didn't know that about schizophrenia. Thanks for the info. And Jeroen should not in my opinion accuse you of anything. Jeroen not nice of you you might wish to apologize to Jay who is seriously trying to help you get well? Think you could? Love Phillipa
Posted by elanor roosevelt on September 7, 2009, at 23:11:01
In reply to Re: yxibow is misinformed about psychiatry! » Jeroen, posted by yxibow on September 7, 2009, at 4:46:10
I have had lousy experiences with several mood stabilizers(including Lamictal) but I consider it to be due to a bad match not brain damage
This is the end of the thread.
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