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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by qbsbrown on August 16, 2009, at 21:33:41
It seems that all meds that have anticonvulsant properties, make me very depressed, including valium, klonopin, and all the AEDs. Does xanax carry that same property?
I don't remember feeling the same way on it, but perhaps it's more euphoric.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by floatingbridge on August 16, 2009, at 22:37:09
In reply to Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties?, posted by qbsbrown on August 16, 2009, at 21:33:41
Hi Brian,
From what I know, xanax has muscle relaxant properties--and can definitely be more euphoric.
klonopin is classified as an anti-convulsant and a very mild, mild mood stabilizer.
I don't know about the others you mentioned. hope this helps,
fb
Posted by Phillipa on August 16, 2009, at 23:53:32
In reply to Re: Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties? » qbsbrown, posted by floatingbridge on August 16, 2009, at 22:37:09
Brian valium also has anti convulsive properties. Don't think xanax does. I will check. Love Phillipa Thinking of changing to or adding xanax?
Posted by Phillipa on August 17, 2009, at 0:13:50
In reply to Re: Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties? » floatingbridge, posted by Phillipa on August 16, 2009, at 23:53:32
Brian according to google anticonvulsant properties I was wrong. Love Phillipa
Posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 14:07:52
In reply to Re: Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties?, posted by Phillipa on August 17, 2009, at 0:13:50
I think you are right, but I don't think that xanax's anticonvulsant properties are as strong as valiums and/or klonopins, correct me if I'm wrong people.
I worry about xanax because of it's short half life (i have to dose valium 3x a day), and my tolerance to benzos. Klono is a no go, as it gives me bad depression and irritability, valium seems to do the same, but not as bad, and basically is a sugar pill to me (seems to work well for 3 hours then kinda tapers off, or maybe that's just it's peak) as is ativan.
Funny how 3mgs of xanax would be a normal dose for many, and would be prescribed to many, and yet, that's equal by most conversion charts, 60mgs of valium, which docs in the US would say, NO Way.
I guess that xanax xr is a consideration, maybe 3-4x a day.
I stupidly started my valium taper in absolute tolerance withdrawal, and have no quality of life for 5 months, completely disabled.
I sadly decided to re-instate the valium, and perhaps start at a dose to where i am comfortable. I took 20mgs in the morn (well 3am, that's when i've been waking up), and 20 in the midday, and my world has turned upside down for the better.
I doubt i could find a doc who would rx 60-80mgs valium that might be necissary.
I'm afraid of my tolerance to xanax, but it might be the better option. Or continue on valium, as i don't feel depressed and/or irritable.
As for depression. No SSRIs work for me, SNRi's, tcas, especially anything that works on serotonin is a no go.
I think that the only thing i've found helpful is Provigil oddly, but my concern there is that it's a CNS stimulant, in opposition to the benzos, isn't that damaging the CNS?
Brian
Posted by floatingbridge on August 17, 2009, at 16:26:24
In reply to Jay, Scott: xanax have anticonvulsant properties?, posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 14:07:52
Brian, I'm neither Jay nor Scott, so I hope you don't mind my response--I'm interested in what you're discussing....
I've discussed xanax xr with my pdoc, but for now remain on klonopin. I think the short life of xanax can make it a poor choice for continuous coverage (it was not good for me), and the potential for developing tolerance is greater. I've heard mixed reviews of the XR version of xanax, so I'm still deciding.
Klonopin was depressive for me until I added dexedrine--provigil didn't work for me. Could you take both together?
May I ask if you are on mono-therapy for your depression and anxiety?
Hope you get your responses soon from Scott & Jay (and some of the other science-minded brains that frequent here)!
fb
Posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 16:26:44
In reply to Jay, Scott: xanax have anticonvulsant properties?, posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 14:07:52
But provigil worked great with celexa. The only downside to that, is that celexa causes derealization. the only AD that i've taken that doesn't cause derealization, is lexapro.
Lexapro in the past has worked great for a week, then pooped out, and even induced mixed mood episodes, and even almost seemingly mania once. Even dysphoria on it's own, just like all other meds I take. But I wonder with provigil on board, if that might negate it. Who knows.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 18:03:29
In reply to Re: Jay, Scott: xanax have anticonvulsant propert » qbsbrown, posted by floatingbridge on August 17, 2009, at 16:26:24
> Brian, I'm neither Jay nor Scott, so I hope you don't mind my response--I'm interested in what you're discussing....
>
> I've discussed xanax xr with my pdoc, but for now remain on klonopin. I think the short life of xanax can make it a poor choice for continuous coverage (it was not good for me), and the potential for developing tolerance is greater. I've heard mixed reviews of the XR version of xanax, so I'm still deciding.
>
> Klonopin was depressive for me until I added dexedrine--provigil didn't work for me. Could you take both together?
>
> May I ask if you are on mono-therapy for your depression and anxiety?
>
> Hope you get your responses soon from Scott & Jay (and some of the other science-minded brains that frequent here)!
>
> fbLOL, I don't care if it's Jay or Scott. Interesting, I've never tried the XR version myself. Take both dexedrin and provigil together? I'm not sure. I think you could. Provigil is a CNS stimulant, but it's compared to a couple cups o coffee. Have u tried it with wellbutrin?
Right now, nothing is being addressed for me. I was simply doing a valium taper, but started much to low, and in serious tolerance from the point i was at. So we'll see what happens with that.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 18:37:42
In reply to Re: Jay, Scott: xanax have anticonvulsant propert » qbsbrown, posted by floatingbridge on August 17, 2009, at 16:26:24
I wonder if I took klonopin w/ lexapro. that the depression and irritability would not be so bad. HHMM.. (I never took the klonopin w/ an AD, and/or stimulant). Especially with the provigil.
That said, i think it's still tolerance for me, and even interdose on 3x a day, but that was more around 1.5mgs. I'd probably shoot for about 3mgs.
And that is a 60mg equivalent to valium, which no doc would prescribe.
And you're right about the xanax and more tolerance, and more abuse and shorter half life.
Brian
Posted by floatingbridge on August 17, 2009, at 18:43:12
In reply to Re: Jay, Scott: xanax have anticonvulsant propert, posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 18:03:29
. Take both dexedrin and provigil together? I'm not sure. I think you could. Provigil is a CNS stimulant, but it's compared to a couple cups o coffee. Have u tried it with wellbutrin?
>
> Right now, nothing is being addressed for me. I was simply doing a valium taper, but started much to low, and in serious tolerance from the point i was at. So we'll see what happens with that.
>
> Regards,
>
> BrianOh golly no! I jettisoned provigil. I don't take them together. Guess one could, though. I just didn't respond well to provigil. Nor wellbutrin. I just thought you could take provigil if it worked for you. Now back to getting some feedback about your taper.....
fb
Posted by yxibow on August 17, 2009, at 19:45:38
In reply to Re: Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties?, posted by Phillipa on August 17, 2009, at 0:13:50
All benzodiazepines have anticonvulsant properties, its just a question of how strong they are.
I think Valium and Ativan (?) are used in ERs for seizure/convulsion situations.
Klonopin was probably (?) originally designed for epilepsy but its not exclusive for that and the dosages for it are wildly different than for psychiatry in general.
Valium possesses more (muscle) relaxant properties.
-- Jay
Posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 19:53:51
In reply to Re: Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties?, posted by yxibow on August 17, 2009, at 19:45:38
> All benzodiazepines have anticonvulsant properties, its just a question of how strong they are.
>
> I think Valium and Ativan (?) are used in ERs for seizure/convulsion situations.
>
> Klonopin was probably (?) originally designed for epilepsy but its not exclusive for that and the dosages for it are wildly different than for psychiatry in general.
>
> Valium possesses more (muscle) relaxant properties.
>
> -- JaySo basically I'm screwed in the US if I'm looking for 60mgs valium, right? that's assumed. But 3mgs klonopin would be fine.
I worry about it, because i remember the minor depression and irritability that it produced. Also the "wet blanket" feeling over my head, and for sure made the Seattle weather look uglier, lol.
It did seem to work better for sleep than valium (valium is terrible for sleep for me), but for me, even seemed like there was some interdose wd w/ klonopin 3x a day, waking up w/ some physical anxiety, but that could be due to me never raising my dose, i think i was .5-1.5 max.
I'm assuming xanax is a no go due to it's half life, and also more dependence building.
Is my best bet to take the 3mgs klono, and if i wean myself down to 1.5, then i could crossover to 30mgs valium, and docs wouldn't freak out?
I wonder if an AD like lexapro, and some provigil could assist w/ the depression/irritability feelings.
Any recommendations?
Brian
Posted by floatingbridge on August 17, 2009, at 20:29:04
In reply to Re: Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties?, posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 19:53:51
Hi Brain,
If you like provigil, I would say try it with klonopin. It'll probably cover the depressive qualities of klonopin.
good luck!
fb
Posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 20:36:49
In reply to Re: Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties? » qbsbrown, posted by floatingbridge on August 17, 2009, at 20:29:04
I hope so, because i hate the depression/irritability/and wet blanket feeling it induces.
But it doesn't sound like xanax is an option, and no docs would prescribe 60mgs valium sadly. Too bad they are so unsavy to the conversions.
Brian
Posted by Phillipa on August 17, 2009, at 21:01:02
In reply to Re: Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties?, posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 20:36:49
Brian combine the regular xanax with the valium this works for me and that way a lower dose of valium? Love Phillipa sorry such a late reply.
Posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 21:03:58
In reply to Re: Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties? » qbsbrown, posted by Phillipa on August 17, 2009, at 21:01:02
> Brian combine the regular xanax with the valium this works for me and that way a lower dose of valium? Love Phillipa sorry such a late reply.
Interesting approach! That'd kinda scare me to take 2 benzos at 1 time. Especially if I want to wean off of them.
Posted by Phillipa on August 17, 2009, at 22:08:16
In reply to Re: Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties?, posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 21:03:58
Brian been on xanax, valium, lunesta same time and no problem dropping cold the lunesta 3mg and I keep lowering the xanax and valium down to about 5mg valium and .5 xanax at this time. Love Phillipa
Posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 22:09:47
In reply to Re: Does xanax have anticonvulsant properties?, posted by yxibow on August 17, 2009, at 19:45:38
> All benzodiazepines have anticonvulsant properties, its just a question of how strong they are.
>
> I think Valium and Ativan (?) are used in ERs for seizure/convulsion situations.
>
> Klonopin was probably (?) originally designed for epilepsy but its not exclusive for that and the dosages for it are wildly different than for psychiatry in general.
>
> Valium possesses more (muscle) relaxant properties.
>
> -- JayIf valium and klonopin both seem to induce some depression and irritability, is it not advisable to switch to a xanax xr? If I have a high tolerance, and don't wanna develop a serious dependency. Given that i have to take valium and klonopin at least 3 times a day, w/ my fast metabolism and interdose wd, I would think that i would have to take xanax xr at least 3 times a day? Plus it doesn't have active metabolites, correct? It just seems so much better for depression, perhaps that's the euphoria talking.
It seems that i climed up to where it is comfortable, 3mgs klonopin, 60mgs valium, and by most conversion accounts I've ever read, that equals 3mgs xanax (although this site shows different)
Eventually i'd like to start tapering, and seeing that i've attempted about 3 valium tapers, 1 klonopin taper/cold turkey, would it be more recommened that i switch to librium when attempting the next taper?
Secondly, is provigil going to be knocking out some of the benzos effectiveness? I know it's not great for the CNS using uppers and downers
Thanks for the advice.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 22:31:58
In reply to Jay, if I switches to xanax xr from valium, posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 22:09:47
Damn, it does look like 1mg of xanax is 10mgs of valium. I thought .5 was 10mgs. My bad
Posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 22:35:49
In reply to Re: Jay, if I switches to xanax xr from valium, posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 22:31:58
I lied, many do show .5 being 10mgs, including ashton. I know u don't like her:)
Posted by yxibow on August 18, 2009, at 5:35:47
In reply to Re: Jay, if I switches to xanax xr from valium, posted by qbsbrown on August 17, 2009, at 22:35:49
> I lied, many do show .5 being 10mgs, including ashton. I know u don't like her:)
Its that she isnt "mainstream"... general psychiatry has not heard or used those "methods". But I'm not going to get into an argument with people who wish to believe in it...
http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/bzd.html
The first chart I think is more accurate but its still a slight bit of an art -- not everyone will respond exactly the same.
.5mg of regular Xanax is 5mg of Valium.
.5mg of Klonopin on the other hand is 10mg of Valium.
And well... I'm not going to say how much Valium I took in the past, but it was a large amount for a very specific reason.
I'm still at a fairly high dose, probably around the typical amounts equivalent to what Klonopin prescriptions typically stop at (say for panic / multiple co-morbid disorders).
As to prescribers -- yes, doctors are more reluctant today to prescribe scheduled substances because of many more infamous cases and malpractice and the DEA breathing down medical licenses.
That doesn't mean that if you truly need a particular amount of benzodiazepines, a doctor who knows your history may be partial to it, but most doctors don't like doctor shopping or patients "prescribing" for them.
This doesn't mean that a relationship with a psychiatrist shouldn't be a two way street and discussion of other medications and the ones that you are taking can't be questioned or new ones pondered.
-- Jay
Posted by qbsbrown on August 18, 2009, at 17:12:06
In reply to Re: Jay, if I switches to xanax xr from valium » qbsbrown, posted by yxibow on August 18, 2009, at 5:35:47
But what if your tolerance keeps growing and growing? Valium and ativan feel like sugar pills to me now. Klono and xanax are the only ones that do anything for me. Although klono works, it kinda makes me depressed and irritable and this nasty wet blanket feeling on my head.
When I was in the middle east last summer, where you can't get benzos or sleeping pills from GPs, only PDOCs. You can't even get stimulants from PDOCS, have to go through the government. They are afraid of the whole country getting hooked, and looking at our country, it seems almost justified.
My PDOC, in a hospital setting, cold turkeyed me off of a high dose of stimulants, i was at a high dose of ativan, and he dramatically lowered it to 30mgs valium, cold turkeyed sleeping meds, added an ad, some zyprexa, a small dose of an anticonvulsant. Barbaric? Yeah, but not as bad as a 1 year taper would be IMO.
Yes, worst week of my life.
But came back to states, and didn't feel the need for benzos, but racing thoughts grew out of control from the rapid detox, that i thought it was bipolarity, but it wasn't.
My tolerance for these drugs and alcohol (which i don't touch anymore), is extremely high, and i'd have to keep on chasing the dose.
What is your opinion on swapping them out for phenobarbital? I see it has worked for many, some ashton followers call it barbaric. But a slow wean, as recommened by her felt more barbaric.
regards,
Brian
Posted by yxibow on August 20, 2009, at 18:48:07
In reply to Re: Jay, if I switches to xanax xr from valium, posted by qbsbrown on August 18, 2009, at 17:12:06
> But what if your tolerance keeps growing and growing? Valium and ativan feel like sugar pills to me now. Klono and xanax are the only ones that do anything for me. Although klono works, it kinda makes me depressed and irritable and this nasty wet blanket feeling on my head.
Well, I'm there... somewhat... Valium I haven' "felt" for years but it is still necessary, it is doing something for me, I just can't feel it.
Yes, if your tolerance keeps growing, some people will need more, sometimes things just work less....
..this can be said about other agents such as APs, etc.. the brain isn't set in stone, it is fluid and things change over time. Transmitters may try to compensate one way or another for agents and this isn't predictable for anyone.
If you've been taking benzodiazepines for quite some time, even if you "wash out", there may still be some sort of 'memory' left that requires a greater than normal starting dose to feel anything as opposed to people who have never taken them or who have only taken them for a short time.
This doesn't mean they don't serve their purpose -- they are necessary for people.
> When I was in the middle east last summer, where you can't get benzos or sleeping pills from GPs, only PDOCs. You can't even get stimulants from PDOCS, have to go through the government. They are afraid of the whole country getting hooked, and looking at our country, it seems almost justified.
Well, if I go down this road, I'll just make generalizations that will probably upset people who live in these regions, but I'd say its a safe bet I would never go to certain countries, and certainly with medication.That being said, I'm sure you had reason or want to go there.
> My PDOC, in a hospital setting, cold turkeyed me off of a high dose of stimulants, i was at a high dose of ativan, and he dramatically lowered it to 30mgs valium, cold turkeyed sleeping meds, added an ad, some zyprexa, a small dose of an anticonvulsant. Barbaric? Yeah, but not as bad as a 1 year taper would be IMO.
Hospital or no hospital setting, 'cold turkey' on multiple agents is just not sound practice. You'll never know which one was doing what.
It is mm... rash... barbaric is in the eye of the beholder. I'd never do that as opposed to a -slower- taper.
There's no reason a "taper" would take one year, that's absurd. But at least over a period of several weeks or more for things -- there's no knowing what will happen when you drop -certain- agents stone cold. Its not something I would do.
> Yes, worst week of my life.
>
> But came back to states, and didn't feel the need for benzos, but racing thoughts grew out of control from the rapid detox, that i thought it was bipolarity, but it wasn't.I wouldn't be surprised.....
> My tolerance for these drugs and alcohol (which i don't touch anymore), is extremely high, and i'd have to keep on chasing the dose.
As I said, I've been there....
> What is your opinion on swapping them out for phenobarbital? I see it has worked for many, some ashton followers call it barbaric. But a slow wean, as recommened by her felt more barbaric.
I'm going to not comment on "ashton" followers. To me, there's no "movement", there's just sound evidence based psychiatry around this.
And god, phenobarbital ?? Benzodiazepines have a antidote, barbiturates (and TCAs to some extent) do not. It's supportive care in an ICU.
I dont see any decent psychiatrist who would do that.
You taper, that's it... and it doesnt have to be agonizingly drawn out nor does it have to bring back lots of symptoms. As I said, general rule -- about 10% per week.
Some more rapid situations in hospitals or partial programs, where you're monitored and have attention given to you and its a place that feels safe, more can be done.
- Jay
Posted by qbsbrown on September 1, 2009, at 17:08:52
In reply to Re: Jay, if I switches to xanax xr from valium » qbsbrown, posted by yxibow on August 20, 2009, at 18:48:07
Interesting. Saw one of the best addiction psychiatrists in the seattle area, and he switched me from valium to librium, and it seems to work. The xanax, klonopin, and the valium all seemed to me to have self-reinforcing properties, where i'd get a good feeling, only to have it drop off after a couple of hours, thus wanting more. This being bad for me with my alcoholic past.
He switched me to librium thinking this, and it seems like it works. No great euphoria, no great sedation, just calmness, normalcy.
Hopefully it continues to work.
Posted by floatingbridge on September 2, 2009, at 1:14:30
In reply to Librium, posted by qbsbrown on September 1, 2009, at 17:08:52
I hope the librium works out for you!
best,
fb
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