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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by morganpmiller on August 1, 2009, at 3:05:49
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by Dima on August 1, 2009, at 2:16:04
Yeah and my grandmother has smoked cigarettes for 50 years and has not died from lung cancer. But she is developing emphysema.
Many of us are walking around with impaired brains/memories appearing to be perfectly healthy otherwise.
Fine, I will do the research.
It still baffles me that you think marijuana is harmless. At least that is the impression I am getting. Let me guess, you smoke regularly.
Posted by morganpmiller on August 1, 2009, at 3:22:33
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by Dima on August 1, 2009, at 2:16:04
this one talks more of damage to developing brains:
From what I read, I don't think marijuana can damage the brain the way I thought it could. I just know people that have smoked it for years that are hurting to remember the simplest of things. Just as with psychiatric medications, everyone's reaction is different.
I am all for medicinal uses of marijuana and the legalization of marijuana, I just don't think it has it's place in treating depression/anxiety. If anything, it will make the depression/anxiety worse over time.
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2009, at 16:13:04
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by morganpmiller on July 31, 2009, at 21:46:32
>Chronic marijuana smoking damages the brain.
Uh, sorry. I don't think we have the data to make that conclusion.
>There is no way you can compare marijuana to >SSRIs. No way whatsoever.
Yes there is and I am doing it. I know a handful of people with GAD who went off pot as per doctors advice, when through the whole SSRI / SNRI merry go round and ended up back on pot saying it worked bettter for anxiety, insomnia, appetite loss etc. There is a lot of reseach these days on the theraptutic effects of cannabanoids in mental illness. One avenue is the use of FAAH inhibitors. These drugs block the breakdown of anandamide. Anandamide is the brains own version of marijuanna. It binds to the same receptors as THC and induces the same effects. In higher doses, anandamide produces the same euphoria side effect as THC.
I am not advocating smoking so much marijuanna to get high as a kite. I think in lower doses you can get a theraptutic effect perhaps by correcting an endocannabanoid deficiancy (which some authors have documented in clinical depression).
>Marijuana gets u high for a very short time and >then it is gone. It can impair your judgement.
I wouldn't say that. There is more in marijuanna than just THC. Some of the compounds in MJ have a half life of more than a week. One of the substances, cannabidol, has anti-anxiety and antipsychotic effects. It contributes in no way to the "high" of the drug. By the way, I am not recomending using doses of cannabis that get you high.
>Really linkage, are you serious here? Yes you >are, that's the scary thing.
No, what I think is scarry is that people recieve misinformation about a) the real health risks associated with marijuanna use b) the real health risks of conventional treatments for depression / anxiety.
Lets face it. The medical community has adopted the use of marijuanna. With a prescription you can obtain medicinal marijuanna. You could never obtain medicinal PCP, or medicinal crack cocaine. Obviously the medical community agrees that in certain circumstances there is a theraputic effect which outweights the risks. All treatments have risks. I am by no way telling people to go out and smoke marijuanna. I am just stating that there is some evidence of why it appears to really help some people.
>Until big pharma synthesizes a pill with a long >half life using the components of marijuana that >act on depresion, there is no way we can begin >to talk about marijuana being used successfully >to treat depression.
We can talk about it. We are talking about it right now. There are many people who use the substance to quell negative moods. I have a friend that failed every SSRI, 4 TCA's and both MAOI's, yet swears by his 3 puff rule to keep him out of the hospital.
>You give me one person that has smoked marijuana >over the years that does not show holes in their >brain after pet scans and has not lost much of >their short term memory, and maybe I will take >marijuana as an antidepressant seriously.
Unfortunately, there is no such evidence that marijuanna produces "holes in the brain". These sorts of images have been demonstrated with meth or crack users, but not in association with monodrug (marijuanna) users.
It is abundantly clear that higher doses of marijuanna can impair cognition while the user is on the drug. Other than that there is not a lot of evience of residual effects.
A number of other psychiatric drugs can cause significant memory impairment. Depakote, lithium, AP's, TCA's, nardil, topomax, benzodiazapines to name a few.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2009, at 16:27:09
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by morganpmiller on July 31, 2009, at 21:53:26
>There is evidence that without any triggers and >given the right environment, many people >predisposed to schizophrenia may never have a >psychotic break.
That statement makes no sence for a variety of reasons. You are basically saying that people with a predisposition to schizophrenia who never got schizophrenia did so because they avoided certain environmental triggers. This is a nonsensicle and inherently unprovable statement.
>Marijuana is NOT good for you. If you don't have >a need to treat pain related to cancer, HIV, or >some other issue, you will not benefit in any >way from marijuana.Again, these are bold statements that make absolutely no consideration for the individual circumstances and factors that are affecting people's lives. There are many people who use marijuanna for depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder etc. Some have used conventional treatments and can make direct comparisons. These patients would claim they do infact benefit from it, and unfortunatley your belief that they do not beneifit is an opinion, no more or less valuble than my own. I would recomend some of the scientific abstracts provided on the following site:
http://cannabis.net/refs/index.html
>It has not nutritional value and it does nothing >to help heal the brain after suffering from >depression/anxiety.
That may not be true. Marijuanna has profound effects on the HPA axis. It can dramatically reduce cortisol secretion, increase melatonin synthesis, restore appetite and sleep in certain patients. Certain cannabanoid constituents of marijuanna also appear to have potent neurotrophic effects see:
http://cannabis.net/neogenesis/index.html
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2009, at 16:29:13
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by morganpmiller on August 1, 2009, at 3:05:49
>It still baffles me that you think marijuana is >harmless. At least that is the impression I am >getting. Let me guess, you smoke regularly.
I would propose you are going from one extreme to another to try and prove a point. I never said marijuanna was harmeless. No pharmacological treatment for depression / anxiety is harmless.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2009, at 16:41:49
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by morganpmiller on August 1, 2009, at 3:22:33
"The researchers caution that the study is preliminary and does not demonstrate that marijuana use causes the brain abnormalities."For instance, people who use antidepressants may have smaller hippocampal volumes. This does not imply that the AD's caused hippocampal volume loss. Infact the opposite may be true.
The third article doesn't say a whole lot. We already know that marijuanna constituents remain stored in the fatty cells of the brain for a month or more. So the fact that some evidence of cognative impairment a month later is present is not unreasonable. Also, there may be neurochemical imbalences that last for a while after stopping smoking, but this doesn't necessarily indicate actual structural brain damage.
Also worth noting, patients with ADHD and schizophrenia demonstrate the same patterns of cerebral blood flow i.e. increased parietal activity and reduced prefrontal cortex activity. Since this study did not include brain scans of the participants before using there is no way that it can rule out the possibility of preexisting neurologic impairments. Blood flow changes are also not necessarily indicative of brain damage.
Linkadge
Posted by morganpmiller on August 1, 2009, at 16:53:43
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2009, at 16:13:04
I was sure I had read(maybe it was on a news show, can't remember) something about someone who smoked marijuana(without any other drug use/abuse)for 10 years or so and had the holes in the brain that I was talking about. I will admit, the verdict is out on whether marijuana use really causes any kind of permanent brain damage.
You bring up many good points.
I am more for the use of marijuana for pain or to increase appetite. Using it for depression and anxiety just does not make sense to me.
Posted by morganpmiller on August 1, 2009, at 16:55:37
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2009, at 16:29:13
True
Posted by morganpmiller on August 1, 2009, at 16:56:10
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2009, at 16:41:49
And true again
Posted by linkadge on August 2, 2009, at 10:49:49
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by morganpmiller on August 1, 2009, at 16:56:10
I agree with you that there really needs to be more research done on the effects of marijuanna on depression before it could ever be recomended.
However, think that for some people, there can be theraptutic aspects to MJ use that need to be earnestly explored and not simply engulfed in a wave of dogmatic anti-drug propeganda.
Posted by SLS on August 2, 2009, at 11:08:00
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by linkadge on August 2, 2009, at 10:49:49
> I agree with you that there really needs to be more research done on the effects of marijuanna on depression before it could ever be recomended.
>
> However, think that for some people, there can be theraptutic aspects to MJ use that need to be earnestly explored and not simply engulfed in a wave of dogmatic anti-drug propeganda.Allosteric drugs of the future might be able to target endocannibinoid receptors and make them more or less receptive to endogenous ligands. In this way, receptors can be modulated rather than fully occupied by a foreign substance.
I have nothing against marijuana. However, I think that there are substances other than THC that can be exploited.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on August 2, 2009, at 14:08:26
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by SLS on August 2, 2009, at 11:08:00
In that list of drugs in the pipeline is an FAAH inhibitor. It was strange that it was indicated for depression in the elderly. I wonder why a drug like this would specifically be marketed for depression in the elderly.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on August 2, 2009, at 19:10:59
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by linkadge on August 2, 2009, at 14:08:26
I've heard that some states have now legalized marijuana someone said Massachusetts was first no idea of true. Guess could google it. Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on August 2, 2009, at 21:03:46
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by morganpmiller on August 1, 2009, at 3:05:49
>It still baffles me that you think marijuana is harmless.
No, it's not that with me. It's that marijuana has been road tested for hundreds of centuries on humans and we know the downsides (and still we argue). I cannot understand how someone can be confident that some drug cooked up in a lab 5 minutes ago can be regarded as safe by comparison.
Posted by morganpmiller on August 2, 2009, at 21:15:33
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by Sigismund on August 2, 2009, at 21:03:46
I understand your argument. And I'm sorry for coming off as if I were attacking you.
I think others responded much better than could have as far as arguing the dangers and potential benefits of marijuana use for depression.
Lithium is a naturally occurring element. I would take low dose lithium use as an antidepressant over marijuana use. At least lithium may increase grey matter and promote neurogenesis.
Posted by morganpmiller on August 2, 2009, at 21:19:52
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by Sigismund on August 2, 2009, at 21:03:46
Road tested for centuries of humans getting "stoned" and "high". I don't here many people talking about how they feel high all the time on antidepressants. Plus, antidepressants may reverse some of the damage done by depression/anxiety through promotion of neurogenesis in the hippocampus, where much of the damage done by depression/anxiety occurs.
Do you mind my asking if you are a marijuana user??
Posted by Sigismund on August 2, 2009, at 23:03:42
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by morganpmiller on August 2, 2009, at 21:19:52
>Do you mind my asking if you are a marijuana user??
Yes
Posted by Dima on August 2, 2009, at 23:17:49
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by morganpmiller on August 2, 2009, at 21:19:52
> Road tested for centuries of humans getting "stoned" and "high". I don't here many people talking about how they feel high all the time on antidepressants. Plus, antidepressants may reverse some of the damage done by depression/anxiety through promotion of neurogenesis in the hippocampus, where much of the damage done by depression/anxiety occurs.
>
> Do you mind my asking if you are a marijuana user??What is wrong with being high? That doesn't sound like a bad side effect to me. And doses can be taken that don't get someone high if they don't like that. And could you cite the source for the antidepressent neurogenesis.
Why are you asking if everyone is a marijuana user? Do you plan on dismissing their argument if they are? The fact that they are probably means they know much more about the effects than you think.
Posted by morganpmiller on August 2, 2009, at 23:59:51
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by Dima on August 2, 2009, at 23:17:49
Lol...I have smoked plenty of shwag in my day.
>What is wrong with being high?
It's o.k. if you want to party, socialize, dance, hang with friends. Otherwise, if you want to be good to yourself emotionally over time, being high will get in the way. If we ever plan on having children or taking on some kind of serious responsibility, being high much of the time will get in the way.
>And could you cite the source for the antidepressent neurogenesis.
They may actually boost the immune system as well. Here are some sources:
I don't know why my links are suddenly so big and annoying. It is almost as annoying as me posting so many links : )
>Why are you asking if everyone is a marijuana user? Do you plan on dismissing their argument if they are?
I do think they will be biased. That does matter doesn't it? Just like I may be biased
Posted by Sigismund on August 3, 2009, at 2:45:26
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by morganpmiller on August 2, 2009, at 23:59:51
If you are looking for someone to defend marijuana you won't find me doing it. It was not safe enough to be incorporated into Ayurveda or TCM.
What I object to is the pincer movement of, on the one hand, a creeping and repressive dispensation and on the other, the medicalisation of everyday life.
I would hold psych drugs to the same standards found in the herbal traditions of the Chinese and Indians.
As soon as ANY psych drug is found to be any good, it becomes a drug of abuse. That's the way it is.
On the marijuana for depression front, I think there are some people for whom low dose oral mj may be useful.
For myself I don't like it much. Like a young friend said 'It's not even fun. It's like being in the movies all day and stepping out into the traffic.'
But maybe if the psych profession could be persuaded of its unpleasantness, it might be more easily able to see its uses?
Posted by morganpmiller on August 3, 2009, at 3:25:24
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by Sigismund on August 3, 2009, at 2:45:26
>On the marijuana for depression front, I think there are some people for whom low dose oral mj may be useful.
I was thinking that also.
>For myself I don't like it much. Like a young friend said 'It's not even fun. It's like being in the movies all day and stepping out into the traffic.'
Lol..I always really liked that though
Geeze, what time is it? I'm up waaay too late.
Posted by vicksnow on August 5, 2009, at 14:32:28
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by morganpmiller on August 1, 2009, at 16:53:43
cannabis is good for you. ask the many drs. who prescribe it. it does not cause holes in ones brain. it does not cause lung cancer (it actually reduces tumors in lab rats)my pulmanologist has no problem with me smoking it. (i have the occasional bronchitis from allergies to my cats). its the safest medicine known to mankind. it has been prescribed to drug abusers to get them off the crack,meth,heroin,acid etc.... and by the way ...it has kept me sober from alcohol over 8 years now... i was a severe alcoholic.... since substituting cannabis for beer i have regained my health and feel better than ever. NO one has ever died from cannabis overdose.... don't believe the lies perpetuated by the government...it fits in quite nicely with my prozac and risperdol.....takes the edge off... i can reduce the number of klonopin (tranquilizer) i take a day... i swear by it. Also since using cannabis i have quit smoking cigerettes going on 10 years now.... cannabis..its been a god send....
Posted by morganpmiller on August 5, 2009, at 19:16:13
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by vicksnow on August 5, 2009, at 14:32:28
Hey I'm all for legalization.
>don't believe the lies perpetuated by the government.
I could make a similar comment about the people out there like you that are obviously biased.
>.it has kept me sober from alcohol over 8 years now
Dude I hate to break it to you, you basically just replaced one addiction for another. I'm sure other people have tried to tell you this. It definitely sounds like marijuana is much healthier safer replacement for alcohol.
Hey, if it works for you, great. I'm glad you found something that works
Posted by elanor roosevelt on August 9, 2009, at 15:39:59
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by morganpmiller on August 5, 2009, at 19:16:13
trying to regroup on the whole med thing
and as my daughter prepares to leave for college i am considering smoking reefer in the early evenings to lift my spirits and increase creativityincrease in creativity is something no head meds do for me
once my kid takes off i will post on the alternative board
a field study
Posted by sukarno on August 10, 2009, at 12:05:22
In reply to Re: Marijuana for depression/anxiety,good or bad idea?, posted by Dima on August 1, 2009, at 2:16:04
The only danger I see with cannabis is - if smoked - carbon monoxide.
That said, carbon monoxide is what kills most cigarette smokers (heart disease and stroke can be caused in the long term by CO), so if you smoke cannabis, you can expect the same cardiopulmonary diseases as those who smoke tobacco.
If smoked lightly, perhaps not, but if it was me and I was going to use cannabis on a long term basis to treat depression (treatment-resistant depression), I would use a tincture under the tongue (to bypass the liver so it reaches the brain as delta-9 THC) or Sativex. You can get Sativex in Canada.
I might try it. I'm tired of antidepressants "pooping out" (tolerance) and horrid withdrawal syndromes.
At least you can quit cannabis and have little or no withdrawal reactions. I used a fair amount of cannabis back in the 1980s and just gave it up. I didn't have any withdrawal or cravings. Everyone is different though.
SSRIs tend to poop out after 5 to 10 years from what I've seen in the hundreds of postings (yeah, I know they are anecdotes, but that many anecdotes surely cannot simply be dismissed) and produce horrible withdrawal symptoms which include seizures. (Oops! Sorry Eli Lilly/GSK, I actually _meant_ to say "discontinuation reaction".. the sugar-coated term for "withdrawal syndrome") Not to forget the sexual dysfunction (loss of ability to orgasm, impotence and loss of libido) that occurs in 70% of patients on SSRIs and that this loss of libido can be permanent (the case reports keep mounting and mounting). SSRIs are addictive and habit-forming, especially the short-acting ones such as paroxetine (Paxil/Seroxat).
Basically, if you can't just quit taking a drug without significant discomfort, then for all practical purposes it is addictive. I used to distinguish between physical and psychological dependence and "medical dependence", but it's just easier to tell it like it is. That's exactly what a board-certified psychiatrist and neurologist told me: SSRIs are addictive drugs, yet useful for some people.
Then there is the ugly:
Bleeding abnormalities, including life-threatening hemorrhages in the stomach and elsewhere. Serotonin toxicity. Serum sickness syndrome (especially with fluoxetine). Severe panic attacks brought on by SSRIs. Blood dyscrasias, bone marrow damage, liver toxicity.
Most people do fine, except in the sexual department, but do you want to risk those side effects (e.g. upper GI bleeding, purpura, etc)?
It's up to you.Does cannabis do this? No. Not at all.
Cannabis just has that taboo "illegal" word attached to it.SSRIs don't cause brain damage? Sure they do. What else do you call it when SSRIs don't work anymore and permanently destroy your libido? They seem to alter, in some cases permanently, gene expression in the brain.
What about violence caused by some folks on SSRIs?
School shootings, murder-suicides.. those were rare in the pre-SSRI era and I think we all know why. There's so many of those these days, and not just in the US anymore. Strongly correlated with the introduction of SSRIs to the market.How about cannabis? I've never seen two 'stoned' people fight. Ask any law enforcement officer which drug he fears or loathes the most and you'll hear him say meth or alcohol and a long list of other illegal and prescription drugs, but cannabis? Hardly. Lots of police these days don't care much about cannabis and wouldn't care if it was fully legalized.
Much less harmful than alcohol or tobacco.
My $0.02
This is the end of the thread.
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