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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by KimStereo on June 14, 2009, at 11:48:04
I came across this Nurses Videos and he talks about Lyme disease possible being the cause of my bad Anxiety.
I watched his videos on how to treat this with Himilayen Sea Salt and High dose Vitamen C. I said what the heck, I'll give it a try, it can't hurt.
Well, now I seem to be getting this Herxheimer reaction that he talks about and I'm in a terrible brain fog like I've never been.
Does this mean I have Lyme disease ?
Here is the link to the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YT0gdqiSCU
Kim
Posted by Phillipa on June 14, 2009, at 12:18:53
In reply to Anxiety or Depression can be Lyme Disease ?, posted by KimStereo on June 14, 2009, at 11:48:04
I've tested positive for years treated in hospital for over a month with antibiotics then two years of biaxin xl three months at a time who knows as I've given up on it as don't have money or the energy to keep fighting the medical profession. What's the site again? Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on June 14, 2009, at 15:06:06
In reply to Re: Anxiety or Depression can be Lyme Disease ? » KimStereo, posted by Phillipa on June 14, 2009, at 12:18:53
This is interesting. I wonder if I should get tested. Thanks for the link.
Posted by yxibow on June 15, 2009, at 2:10:27
In reply to Re: Anxiety or Depression can be Lyme Disease ?, posted by floatingbridge on June 14, 2009, at 15:06:06
I don't know what to say about this other than what I've exhaustively said in the past without trying to hurt other people's feelings.
Viruses have caused mental illness in some less common cases, such as triggers of OCD, which may be triggering genetic OCD, or possibly OCD by itself... that is tricky to say.
Yes, meningitis is real and has obvious psychiatric effects -- its actually more hopeful to have viral. Bacterial while possibly heroically treated is much worse.
I believe the Lyme herxing theories are -very- alternative medicine and belongs in this category on the board.Lyme is somewhat RARE. Annual cases are rather RARE outside of New England and the Mexican/California border and a few other spots.
Other tick diseases are not so rare, like West Nile, which for most everyone nobody even knows they have it.Still, if you want to go walkabout in areas known to harbor West Nile, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, and rarely Lyme, put on some 20% picaridin repellent or up to 100% DEET. In the hot sun, wear loose but long sleeve shirts and pants. And of course sunscreen, but that's not relevant to this discussion.
Biaxin for me at least, is terrible psychiatrically and this is a known effect.
I can't imagine taking it for 2 years -- its supposed to be taken for 10 days give or take.
The really long term use of antibiotics is rather questionable, it puts someone at risk for resistive infections.
This is a medical fact, and its like making yourself a farm animal (pardon the slur), because they're often fed with feed filled with over prescribed antibiotics passed on to people, and the resistance too, which in turn requires yet more research into antibiotics, which can't keep up fast enough with the over prescribing globally to all species.
Well that's my 2c-- Jay
Posted by floatingbridge on June 15, 2009, at 4:02:55
In reply to Re: Anxiety or Depression can be Lyme Disease ?, posted by yxibow on June 15, 2009, at 2:10:27
Oops. Maybe that would be better on the Alt thread. I'm fairly new here, and when I hear anything plausible, I give a listen. I mean, I got this way somehow, or I wouldn't be stalking the archives.
Thanks for the oft repeated info.
Best regards to you
Posted by Ladyraven on June 15, 2009, at 6:57:18
In reply to Re: Anxiety or Depression can be Lyme Disease ?, posted by yxibow on June 15, 2009, at 2:10:27
> I believe the Lyme herxing theories are -very- alternative medicine and belongs in this category on the board.>
I agree with you. I think if I embarked on the various therapies [those seen as more mainstream or those that are more on the alternative side] I would probably feel like cr@p from the treatments versus what is preceived as the toxic death of a pathogen.
To each his or her own.
Posted by Ladyraven on June 15, 2009, at 7:38:38
In reply to Re: Anxiety or Depression can be Lyme Disease ? » yxibow, posted by Ladyraven on June 15, 2009, at 6:57:18
BTW the guy in the video is very familar to those who have been following the boards for awhile.
He was [maybe is] a poster on this board? Found in the archives are his other videos [running a wide variety of ideas and treatments].
hhhmmmm?
Posted by bleauberry on June 15, 2009, at 18:56:47
In reply to Anxiety or Depression can be Lyme Disease ?, posted by KimStereo on June 14, 2009, at 11:48:04
The problem with Lyme disease is that it should actually be called the Lyme Complex. Because it really is extremely complex and mysterious. It can mimic any disease. Just like Syphillis. Great deceivers. Great imitators. People can be treated with antibiotics, get well, and later relapse. No one knows why. They can get better again. But there are lots of unanswered mysteries.
Adding to that are the alternative methods of treatment, such as Salt+VitC, that do not have a track record. I don't care about clinical testing, proof, or scientific evidence. But I do care about having a large body of anecdotal case reports. That does not exist at this time. All of these people doing Salt+C are in an experimental phase.
The best bets for Lyme are:
1. Get a diagnosis from someone well experienced with it. A Lyme Literate practitioner. They come in all specialities...family MDs, Nurse Practioners, Neurologists, Rheumatologists, etc. The things they have in common are fascination with the the mystery of Lyme, the talent to diagnose it, and the experience at getting people well.
2. Get treated by methods that have worked. In the medical world, that includes well-chosen antibiotics, ususally 2 or 3 at the same time in order to hit all three of the mutation forms of Lyme as well as its cousin co-infectors that are so common and just as devastating to the nervous system as Lyme. In the alternative world, there are some herbs with enough anecdotal efficacy behind them to provide a reliable body of evidence.The rule of thumb in Lyme is, "Anecdotal patient experience is rapidly over-ruling clinical experience". What that means is that academia are being proven wrong, in that Lyme is far more common, more devastating, and more complex than thought. Lyme doctors are learning excellent methods. I do not believe Salt+C is one of them. Not at this point in time.
If someone wants to venture into the alternative experimental world, a MUCH safer and more logical venture would be the Hyberbaric Oxygen Chamber. Infectious organisms of all kinds live in an environment of low oxygen and a defined pressure. Lyme and HIV and others die immemdiately upon exposure to more than minute amounts of oxygen. That's why they aren't spread through the air. They love our warm bodies and the small amount of oxygen. IN HB chambers, atmospheric pressure is increased and forces pure oxygen deep into every cell of the body.
This was clinically tested at a University in Texas. It had a 90% success rate which included severe Herx reactions. Almost all patients were markedly improved or in full remission. This kind of testing has not been done with Salt+C.
The Herx reaction is not bogus as someone said it might be. It is a severe reaction to floods of toxins and dead corpses. It is no joke. It does not belong to the alternative world. It is in the real world, universities, and hospitals.
With the Salt+C thing though, I don't know how someone could tell the difference between a Herx and a bad reaction to basically overdosing on salt. Seems to me taking that much salt is going to feel pretty yucky whether it's actually killing anything or not.
To the original title of this thread, yes, depression and anxiety are most definitely very common outcomes of the Lyme Complex. My doctor has had a few Lyme patients where depression was actually their only symptom. They didn't have the common aches and pains, inflammation, or fatigue. Just depression. They got better on Tetracycline, not Prozac.
I have zero evidence to base it on, but my guess is that 20% to 30% of psychobabble participants have a serious infection they are completely unaware of. Lyme tops the list. Even the CDC estimates the cases out there that are undiagnosed dwarf the ones that are by huge percentage numbers. Since the Lyme bacteria burrow into nervous system tissues, it is no wonder they cause such an astounding array of illnesses and problems, with depression and anxiety topping the list.
Posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2009, at 20:34:42
In reply to Re: Anxiety or Depression can be Lyme Disease ?, posted by bleauberry on June 15, 2009, at 18:56:47
And I agree with BB as both my rheumatologist and infection control specialist at the time said the reaction I got while in the hospital in NC with chronic lymes and a pic line was a Herx reaction the twitching that occurred after a week. So the biaxin was started. No side effects and never got sick infection wise since then. I now subscripe to Columbia Universities Newsletter on lymes if can find this thread will post it. Lymes is all over the world different bacteria. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2009, at 20:54:03
In reply to Re: Anxiety or Depression can be Lyme Disease ? » bleauberry, posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2009, at 20:34:42
Newsletter. Phillipa
Dear Friends of the Lyme and Tick-Borne Diseases Research Center:
"Even though I was treated for Lyme disease, I still have health problems. Could they be related to Lyme disease? What is causing the persistent neurocognitive problems I have after getting Lyme disease?"
These are two common questions we see on the Ask the Doctor feature of our web site. Research carried out by Dr. Fallon and colleagues at the Lyme and Tick-Borne Diseases Research Center addresses these issues. The results of this study are published in this months issue of the Archives of General Psychiatry (Arch Gen Psychiatry 2009;66(5):554-563). Using functional brain imaging technology, Lyme patients with persistent Lyme encephalopathy were compared to healthy controls. We wanted to know whether patients with persistent cognitive complaints after having been treated for Lyme disease have brains that function differently than healthy people. In particular, we wanted to know whether the primary problem is in poor blood flow to areas of the brain (as had been seen in later stages of syphilis) or whether the problem is in diminished brain nerve cell metabolism. The primary result from this study was that the Lyme patients had many areas of decreased brain blood flow and metabolism. However, because the areas of reduced blood flow and metabolism were largely overlapping in location, we concluded that the primary deficit relates to the nerve cell functioning rather than the blood supply. This study confirms that patients with persistent cognitive deficits after getting Lyme disease do indeed have objective functional brain deficits. Future studies need to determine whether these areas of abnormality seen on brain PET imaging can actually distinguish patients with Lyme disease from patients with other neurologic diseases, such as Lupus, HIV encephalopathy, or even Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. If shown to be a specific test that is able to distinguish one disease from another, then this imaging tool will be a useful biomarker of differential diagnosis.
Is it possible to have Lyme disease or to have had it in the past and have a negative blood test?
Yes, it is possible. Even though existing lab tests are informative, no existing test is 100% sensitive (identifying all true cases as positive). It is important that we keep searching for better diagnostic tests. Our future research plans include studies to evaluate several diagnostic Lyme tests in development. We will be going to community sites in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and possibly other states to invite people who have had Lyme recently or have had it in the past and still have symptoms to participate in this study. Please check our web site in the next few months for updates on places and dates.
Also, please visit our web site at www.columbia-lyme.org to view updates on our responses to Ask the Doctor and Recent Lyme and TBD abstracts for current Lyme research. Since Lyme season is upon us, CDCs instructions on tick removal are especially helpful (FAQ #3047).
If you are able, consider joining our community of supporters for Lyme research by making a donation to the Center http://columbia-lyme.org/donate.html.
Your interest in Lyme and tick-borne diseases and the work of our Center is greatly appreciated.
Sincerely
Brian A. Fallon, MD
Director
Lyme and Tick-Borne Diseases Research Center
Columbia University Medical Center
Posted by bleauberry on June 17, 2009, at 17:27:41
In reply to Re: Anxiety or Depression can be Lyme Disease ?, posted by Phillipa on June 15, 2009, at 20:54:03
Hi Phillipa,
Yeah, I have no doubt brain dysfunction can be seen on a scan in Lyme patients.
In many people I believe it is probably that even when the infectious organisms are eradicated, problems still exist due to two things:
1. Permanent tissue or nerve damage.
2. Dysfunctional confused immune system...kind of like being loopy after being punched in the head, you don't get clearheaded just because the person who punched you is no longer punching you.
My LLMD has his own theories that seem to be working in realtime realworld. That is, Lyme changes the way the immune system operates, and it is that dysfunctional operation that causes most of the symptoms. He has seen patients reach remission when in fact they were still infected. He talked detailed immune stuff way over my head. Alpha factor 1 was something he kept mentioning, though I have no clue what it is.
In any case, his track record is 95% of patients get 95% well. Not just better, but 95% well. It involves taking a antibiotic A for a long time, and then adding a small dose of antiobitic B, have a small Herx, raise the dose of B, another small Herx, raise the dose again, and bingo, the patient is well. He says it is like magic. Remove the meds and the patient immediately relapses. Restart them and they are again well. The only way they know when they have been on them long enough to stop them is to keep trying.
The two antibiotics are Tetracycline and Clindamycin.
My own theory to add to that is that the family of Tetracycline, Doxycycline, and Monocycline, are very good anti-inflammatory meds as well. So they have distinct beneficial healing effects completely separate from their antibiotic effects. And according to my doc, they have distinct immune modulating effects as well.
Lyme is not just devastating, and a major cause of psychiatric illness, but mysterious throughout the entire spectrum of diagnosis to treatment to post-treatment. It takes a real talented doctor's eye to navigate through the maze.
It would not surprise me at all if a large number of pbabble participants have a Lyme-like infection, the resulting brain inflammation, hormone disruption, immune disruption, and everything else, and that is why doing things like manipulating things like serotonin and dopamine is so fruitless for those people.
This is the end of the thread.
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