Shown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by odon on May 16, 2009, at 8:42:18
Should everyone with stubborn mental symptoms go on lets say a 6 month trial of antibiotics?Even if its a case of psychiatric medications that used to work well,then stopped being as effective.In my case I seem to not tolerate Doxycycline so I was thinking of medications like amoxicillin or cipro or levaquin.--Could it be of great benefit for most people with psychiatric issues to just give a course of antibiotics a good trial?
Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2009, at 10:35:17
In reply to Should everyone go on a trial of antibiotics?, posted by odon on May 16, 2009, at 8:42:18
I did the antibiotics with diagnosed chronic lymes for over two years nothing has changed. Love Phillipa wish more would post studies.
Posted by desolationrower on May 16, 2009, at 22:11:43
In reply to Re: Should everyone go on a trial of antibiotics? » odon, posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2009, at 10:35:17
I see no problem in creating superbugs and weakening one's natural immune system/symbiotic bugs (see http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/05/10/antibiotics-associated-with-later-infection/)
antibiotics aren't magic spells
-d/r
Posted by bleauberry on May 17, 2009, at 13:42:30
In reply to Should everyone go on a trial of antibiotics?, posted by odon on May 16, 2009, at 8:42:18
Routine antibiotics for the general population...NO.
Routine antibiotics/antifunglas for pbabble-like populations...YES. But these are only short diagnostic challenge tests to see if a Herx reaction is provoked, usually with Tetracycline and Nystatin. From there, the entire clinical picture and presentation has to direct the next move.
While some people do present with just depression, usually there are other confounding symptoms such as Fibromyalgia-like, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome-like, Arthritis-like, neurological, schizophrenia-like, anxiety, chemical or food sensitivities, night sweats, brain fog, or any combination of them. As you can see, bacteria and yeast can look exactly like what is in the psychiatric manual.
From personal experience I can tell you that Lyme or Candida toxins feel exactly the same as the pure DSM clinical depression that you and I call depression. No difference.
This was a really long post. I just chopped it all off to answer the basic title question. If anyone is interested in learning more, please start a new thread. It is a long topic because it requires explaining a lot of things to debunk the predictable notions, assumptions, and pessimism by those who don't know this stuff real deep.
Posted by odon on May 17, 2009, at 16:43:02
In reply to Re: Should everyone go on a trial of antibiotics?, posted by bleauberry on May 17, 2009, at 13:42:30
bleauberry ,if you want,at you're leisure you can post all you're experience, knowledge and advice on this topic in this thread.Even talk about you're own personal experience,treatments,progress and so on.---I realise you put alot of time and effort into your posts,and it is much appreciated,and I'm sure by many people in addition to myself.--If you still think starting a new thread about antibiotics and mental issues etc. is a better idea,I also understand.
Posted by yxibow on May 18, 2009, at 23:10:37
In reply to Should everyone go on a trial of antibiotics?, posted by odon on May 16, 2009, at 8:42:18
> Should everyone with stubborn mental symptoms go on lets say a 6 month trial of antibiotics?Even if its a case of psychiatric medications that used to work well,then stopped being as effective.In my case I seem to not tolerate Doxycycline so I was thinking of medications like amoxicillin or cipro or levaquin.--Could it be of great benefit for most people with psychiatric issues to just give a course of antibiotics a good trial?
NO and NO and NO!Good grief.
That is if one believes in evidence based psychiatry, and the simple principle of not creating antibiotic-resistant pathogens for yourself and those around you.
That is if you care about those around you, since the last two antibiotics came to market somewhere in the world at least four years ago.
Sorry to be harsh about this but drug resistant bacteria is a serious problem in and out of hospitals.
Now, if you want to go through test after test to prove that you have a bacterial infection, or are showing serious signs of bacterial meningitis (which manifests more than just 'psychiatric'), that is a different story.
I admit.. I've had tests because I have a rare disorder, and yes, I went through Lyme tests, rocky mountain spotted fever tests, and a half a dozen other tests I can't recall.
There are also serious side effects from taking things like doxycycline for 6 months.And going on a fluoroquinolone without any reason for it is also both a) dangerous and b) if you need Cipro god forbid for a theoretical terrorist attack it may not help you.
These are the reasons why long term antibiotics for Lyme disease are strongly discouraged in the scientific community. One would have to have a pretty convincing case for it to be justified medically, but yes, I know, it goes on anyway. C'est la vie.
Also they will wipe out your natural intestinal flora in such an incredible way and possibly cause Pseudomembranous colitis, which is caused by some antibiotics because of resistance to Clostridium difficile, and is a serious form of diarrhea which must be treated by yet again another type of antibiotic if you're lucky.
Its the idea of this that I'm writing this way, I'm not trying to character assassinate but I just can't emphasize this any more.-- Jay
Posted by desolationrower on May 19, 2009, at 0:11:03
In reply to Re: Should everyone go on a trial of antibiotics? » odon, posted by yxibow on May 18, 2009, at 23:10:37
theres a significant, though not mountainous amount of evidence on this, and it doesn't support the idea of these cryptoinfections
i'm open to looking more, but until someone does research that give positive results, i'm going to think of it as wrong.
-d/r
Posted by bleauberry on May 19, 2009, at 20:27:35
In reply to Should everyone go on a trial of antibiotics?, posted by odon on May 16, 2009, at 8:42:18
The answers of both the previous posters show how misinformed the general public, and most doctors, are on the topic of infectious diseases.
To rely on a lab test for definitive diagnosis, for example, is a poker game. To ignore symptoms and history that fit the mold, is ignorant. What we need is not rampant use of antibiotics, but newly trained doctors who understand how to use them correctly. Such as pulsing as just one of several examples. On the topic of wiping out intestinal flora and creating new disease, that is valid but easily prevented as well. Most doctors do not even mention, and are not even aware of, the simple tactics to prevent that from happening.
As I said before, these are treacherous waters for the general public, but definitely fair game for the chronically ill in categories of:
Resistant Depression
Resistant Anxiety
Resistant Schizoaffective
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Fibromyalgia
MSThe risks of the above conditions on health, wellbeing, productivity, and life expectancy are far more serious than any risks of antibiotics.
Posted by yxibow on May 19, 2009, at 23:13:49
In reply to Re: Should everyone go on a trial of antibiotics?, posted by bleauberry on May 19, 2009, at 20:27:35
> The answers of both the previous posters show how misinformed the general public, and most doctors, are on the topic of infectious diseases.
>
> To rely on a lab test for definitive diagnosis, for example, is a poker game.Of course it is, that's why a doctor interprets them along with your medical history. Agreed, a test isn't the end of a probe into a mystery.
To ignore symptoms and history that fit the mold, is ignorant. What we need is not rampant use of antibiotics, but newly trained doctors who understand how to use them correctly. Such as pulsing as just one of several examples. On the topic of wiping out intestinal flora and creating new disease, that is valid but easily prevented as well. Most doctors do not even mention, and are not even aware of, the simple tactics to prevent that from happening.
I don't mean to be terse, but I think you are really downplaying Clostridium difficile. It is serious and possibly life threatening diarrhea.Yes, there are probiotics and there is evidence that yogurt is a good thing to use after a SHORT normal course of antibiotics.
> As I said before, these are treacherous waters for the general public, but definitely fair game for the chronically ill in categories of:
>
> Resistant Depression
> Resistant Anxiety
> Resistant Schizoaffective
> Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
> Fibromyalgia
> MS
>
> The risks of the above conditions on health, wellbeing, productivity, and life expectancy are far more serious than any risks of antibiotics.Life expectancy on antibiotics can be minutes if you have anaphylactic shock. Not observing someone on antibiotics and giving a course to take home for some unknown and prolonged length of time can be life threatening.
And it happens because people don't necessarily know they are allergic to certain types of antibiotics. This is not an unknown scenario, I'm not being light or flippant.
Life expectancy when you have a genuine need for heroic antibiotics in an ICU, such as linezolid (Zyvox), or vancomycin, is another story. For that, it can be a life saver, literally, and not without risks either.Yes, all the disorders you mentioned, especially CFS, Fibromyalgia, and MS have been misunderstood in the past but there are treatment options now for CFS and Fibromyalgia and they are recognized as legitimate and painful conditions in the general population.
But remember, even with Lyme disease, a titer can remain positive long after antibiotics have taken care of something that can and has been detected early.
But I know you believe in alternative medicine alot -- I can't convince you otherwise, that is your prerogative, but I can't see how a rough assault on the system with powerful drugs with real serious side effects that require situations where the benefits really do outweigh the risks is exactly a positive thing.-- tidings
-- Jay
Posted by odon on May 20, 2009, at 10:04:53
In reply to Re: Should everyone go on a trial of antibiotics? » bleauberry, posted by yxibow on May 19, 2009, at 23:13:49
yxibow,thankyou for pointing out the other side to this issue.I guess that's why I asked the question in the first place.Both you and bleauberry have been very helpful,even though your views differ.In addtion the other responses have also been helpful.
Posted by desolationrower on May 20, 2009, at 11:15:46
In reply to Re: Should everyone go on a trial of antibiotics?, posted by odon on May 20, 2009, at 10:04:53
i'll add that i really appreciate bb's posts, though i often disagree. i just think that while experimental treatments are good to open up new treatment modalities, but if they fail clinical trials, they should be discarded especially for general treatment unless some new evidence comes along.
-d/r
Posted by bleauberry on May 20, 2009, at 18:44:36
In reply to Re: Should everyone go on a trial of antibiotics? » bleauberry, posted by yxibow on May 19, 2009, at 23:13:49
Your comments are well taken. I agree and disagree at the same time to everything you said. There are two sides of the fence, and I see both sides.
What it boils down to is the same decision every patient and doctor have to make. That is, risk versus benefit. It is a case by case decision. The risks of ABs you mentioned are real and serious, but thankfully rare. The risks of not doing treatment however are practically guaranteed. Today's treatments do not address the cause of the disease or stop its progression. The treatments only ease the symptoms so someone can have an improved life for a while.
Risk versus benefit. Though I see both sides of the fence, I am convinced a large number of the Fibro, CFS, and MS patients would respond amazingly well to certain ABXs. There is just too much in literature, and so many cases from my own doctor, to ignore as fluke.
As your views and mine collectively put together show, however, there is always in any kind of medical treatment a risk/benefit decision.
> > The answers of both the previous posters show how misinformed the general public, and most doctors, are on the topic of infectious diseases.
> >
> > To rely on a lab test for definitive diagnosis, for example, is a poker game.
>
> Of course it is, that's why a doctor interprets them along with your medical history. Agreed, a test isn't the end of a probe into a mystery.
>
> To ignore symptoms and history that fit the mold, is ignorant. What we need is not rampant use of antibiotics, but newly trained doctors who understand how to use them correctly. Such as pulsing as just one of several examples. On the topic of wiping out intestinal flora and creating new disease, that is valid but easily prevented as well. Most doctors do not even mention, and are not even aware of, the simple tactics to prevent that from happening.
>
>
> I don't mean to be terse, but I think you are really downplaying Clostridium difficile. It is serious and possibly life threatening diarrhea.
>
> Yes, there are probiotics and there is evidence that yogurt is a good thing to use after a SHORT normal course of antibiotics.
>
>
>
> > As I said before, these are treacherous waters for the general public, but definitely fair game for the chronically ill in categories of:
> >
> > Resistant Depression
> > Resistant Anxiety
> > Resistant Schizoaffective
> > Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
> > Fibromyalgia
> > MS
> >
> > The risks of the above conditions on health, wellbeing, productivity, and life expectancy are far more serious than any risks of antibiotics.
>
> Life expectancy on antibiotics can be minutes if you have anaphylactic shock. Not observing someone on antibiotics and giving a course to take home for some unknown and prolonged length of time can be life threatening.
>
> And it happens because people don't necessarily know they are allergic to certain types of antibiotics. This is not an unknown scenario, I'm not being light or flippant.
>
>
> Life expectancy when you have a genuine need for heroic antibiotics in an ICU, such as linezolid (Zyvox), or vancomycin, is another story. For that, it can be a life saver, literally, and not without risks either.
>
>
>
> Yes, all the disorders you mentioned, especially CFS, Fibromyalgia, and MS have been misunderstood in the past but there are treatment options now for CFS and Fibromyalgia and they are recognized as legitimate and painful conditions in the general population.
>
>
> But remember, even with Lyme disease, a titer can remain positive long after antibiotics have taken care of something that can and has been detected early.
>
>
> But I know you believe in alternative medicine alot -- I can't convince you otherwise, that is your prerogative, but I can't see how a rough assault on the system with powerful drugs with real serious side effects that require situations where the benefits really do outweigh the risks is exactly a positive thing.
>
> -- tidings
>
> -- Jay
This is the end of the thread.
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