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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 43. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by RobertDavid on May 17, 2009, at 23:02:58
I've been taking klonopin for about 14 years for Social Anxiety Disorter. It worked great, the only thing I took that worked and I took just about every thing except Nardil/Parnate for SAD. I continue to do well with my once debilitating anxiety issues.
In my youth I self medicated with alcohol. Quit drinking for 16 years, but a year after starting klonopin began to fool around with drinking, now often in excess. I've heard there is research that suggests increased cravings, but not sure.
Also, I think at times I do "bold" things that seem unlike me. Certainly a benzo for SAD helps by making your feel bolder in social situations which is good, but not sure I'd do some of the things I do that I later regret including being impulsive. On occation I'm told I have slurred speach (not alcohol related). There are a days when I feel great, but many where I feel sluggish, tired and confused and even depressed. Some have suggested these issues are side effects of klonopin, I'm just not sure.
I have heard that over time the brain can change its hard wiring and perhaps I can get off klonopin or go to a lower dose successfully. I've lowered the dose before and had a hard time with withdrawls even at a slow titration down.
I'm taking 2mgs at bedtime and my plan is to go down by .25mgs each 7 days then level off at 1.5mgs for a few weeks. Then try to drop to 1mg and assess how I'm doing. If possible get off it. I'll use a pill cutter to chop up my 2mg brand pill until I get down to a lower dose then go to the 1mg pill if I'm successfull.
I've always been a proponent of klonopin. Before I took it I could hardly leave my home. But I'm conserned and unsure about the issues mentioned and really don't know if klonopin is to blame. And the big question is will all my anxiety issues return. Also, I'm not sure how long I will I have to wait to see if the anxiety I will be feeling will be withdrawls or a return of the symptoms of SAD.
I guess time will tell. Any comments, ideas, or info would be great. Thanks
Posted by Phillipa on May 18, 2009, at 0:15:15
In reply to Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by RobertDavid on May 17, 2009, at 23:02:58
Rob doing the same thing. Seems like we're on the same page a lot. I do think the brain does change. I think I once mentioned that klonopin depressed me. But benzos don't cause alchohol cravings in me. Have you considered switching to a milder benzos? Hopefully some great answers will be posted. Love Phillipa
Posted by Neal on May 18, 2009, at 1:10:51
In reply to Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by RobertDavid on May 17, 2009, at 23:02:58
> I've been taking klonopin for about 14 years for Social Anxiety Disorter. It worked great, the only thing I took that worked and I took just about every thing except Nardil/Parnate for SAD. I continue to do well with my once debilitating anxiety issues.
that's great . . .
>
> In my youth I self medicated with alcohol. Quit drinking for 16 years, but a year after starting klonopin began to fool around with drinking, now often in excess. I've heard there is research that suggests increased cravings, but not sure.
>> I have heard that over time the brain can change its hard wiring and perhaps I can get off klonopin or go to a lower dose successfully. I've lowered the dose before and had a hard time with withdrawls even at a slow titration down.
The fact that you lowered before, means you can probably do it again. Sometimes, when we get older, we can make do with somewhat less of certain medications. If you've got SAD, this would be the time of year to try, rather than say September or October. Benzo's are hard to titrate down on for many. I think there have been some specific strategies mentioned on the board - try using the search feature.
>
> I'm taking 2mgs at bedtime and my plan is to go down by .25mgs each 7 days then level off at 1.5mgs for a few weeks. Then try to drop to 1mg and assess how I'm doing. If possible get off it. I'll use a pill cutter to chop up my 2mg brand pill until I get down to a lower dose then go to the 1mg pill if I'm successfull.Or get your doc to write a script for .5mg tabs and then you'll have more control. I'd go for chopping the .5 tabs. Try lowering by 1/4 or even less at a time of those.
>
> I've always been a proponent of klonopin. Before I took it I could hardly leave my home. But I'm conserned and unsure about the issues mentioned and really don't know if klonopin is to blame. And the big question is will all my anxiety issues return. Also, I'm not sure how long I will I have to wait to see if the anxiety I will be feeling will be withdrawls or a return of the symptoms of SAD.
>
> I guess time will tell. Any comments, ideas, or info would be great. ThanksRobert, how about cutting down on the alcohol? That might take you most of the way to solving your problem. Alcohol potentiates Klonopin, so that may be what's causing your problems. Try slowly titrating down the alcohol, because your body may be used to the potentiated Klonopin dose, so go slowly down on the drinks to zero and see how that works, and then revisit whether you want to/need to go down on the Klonopin.
Posted by Neal on May 18, 2009, at 2:07:13
In reply to Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by RobertDavid on May 17, 2009, at 23:02:58
Robert,
If you still want to withdraw from Klonopin, there is a specific Babble board for withdrawal. At the bottom of the page you will find it, labeled "Withdrawal". It for lowering all kinds of meds, but if you look thoroughly you'll find something about benzos. You can look at past Withdrawals boards if you need too. Best of luck.
Posted by Zana on May 19, 2009, at 14:42:19
In reply to Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by RobertDavid on May 17, 2009, at 23:02:58
I take klonopin and have no plans to go off it right now. The weaning schedule I have used before and that my newphew used successfully was one quarter of one of your doses every 3 WEEKS. You can't go too slowly getting off klonopin.
But you can go too fast. I got creepy crawly feelings like I had bugs on my arms the last time I quit. You can easily get withdrawal symptoms that mimic barbituate withdrawal.
If I were you, from what you've said about yourself, I wouldn't drink. It really confounds the effects of AD and anti-anxiety meds.
By the way, klonopin can definitely be disinhibiting in too high doses. Landed my brother with a restaining order from a soon to be ex-wife and a weekend in the hospital.Zana
I really am going to the gym now.
Posted by jrbecker76 on May 19, 2009, at 14:57:16
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by Zana on May 19, 2009, at 14:42:19
I took klonopin for about a year at a low dose (0.5 mg). It was not the easiest feat getting off of it, but I was helped in large part by a cross-taper to valium (diazepam) before discontinuing that. This is known as the ashton method. The ashton method recommends an extremely slow taper process. For me, I did it in less time though. I personally don't agree with Ashton's extreme anti-benzo stance, however, I do agree that the withdrawal can be extremely difficult if a proper strategy is not implemented...
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm
http://www.non-benzodiazepines.org.uk/clonazepam.html
http://www.non-benzodiazepines.org.uk/equivalents.html
Posted by Zana on May 19, 2009, at 16:27:44
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by jrbecker76 on May 19, 2009, at 14:57:16
While I agree with the emphasis on slow taper, the ashton method doesn't make sense to me for two reasons. One they recommend valium because it is has a long half life. Klonopin actually has a longer half life. And all benzos are not created equal. Klonopin improves my mood. Valium depresses me.
Zama
Posted by RobertDavid on May 19, 2009, at 20:24:23
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by Zana on May 19, 2009, at 14:42:19
Thanks for the input. I am definately not drinking with klonoping again. I've noticed that after drinking, even occational drinking it takes me about 10 days to feel myself again (including normal sleep patterns). I always wondered why so much time needed to pass to feel ok. Seems alcohol definately confounds the benefits klonopin. Nuff said on alcohol and klonopin, no drinking for many reasons including potentially not waking up.
I am taking brand and have tried to switch to generic serval times (at the same dose) and even then have felt withdrawl symptoms after 3 or 4 days. I assume it's from a slight variation in dose allowed in generic meds. This stuff seems so potent!
So for now I think I'll just try to go down on a very slow pace and let my body be my guide. I'm at 2mgs and will drop by .25mgs until I "feel" stabilized whether its a week or month or? Then repeat.
Though I'd like to be off it altogether, if the SAD symptoms are like they were before klonopin 14 years ago my hope is to be on the lowest effective dose and stay there (until a new med breakthrough hopefully comes along). I'd like to think I can minimize problematic side effects with a lower, but effective dose.
Part of my transition will be switching to generic from brand (brand is not scored and hard to cut not to mention expensive) and think I'll try to wein off of brand by taking 1/2 brand and half generic for a while until I can be off brand completely.
Anyway, that's my plan for now, one day at a time it is.
Posted by Phillipa on May 19, 2009, at 23:57:09
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by RobertDavid on May 19, 2009, at 20:24:23
Rob sounds like a good plan. Love as always Phillipa
Posted by jrbecker76 on May 20, 2009, at 9:49:21
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by Zana on May 19, 2009, at 16:27:44
> While I agree with the emphasis on slow taper, the ashton method doesn't make sense to me for two reasons. One they recommend valium because it is has a long half life. Klonopin actually has a longer half life. And all benzos are not created equal. Klonopin improves my mood. Valium depresses me.
>
> ZamaInteresting. Klonopin depressed me more than Valium (diazepam).
As for half-lives, Valium's half-life is 20-50 hours, and one of its active metabolites has one around 200 hrs (which is much longer than klonopin's 18-50 hours), so this is why withdrawing with diazepam has been a preferred method for many clinicians. It sort of goes by the same logic of cross-tapering to Prozac from another SSRI/SNRI and then withdrawing from Prozac since it has the longest half-life in its class.
JB
Posted by Phillipa on May 20, 2009, at 20:30:22
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas? » Zana, posted by jrbecker76 on May 20, 2009, at 9:49:21
Klonopin also depresses me. Valium doesn't. Phillipa
Posted by RobertDavid on June 2, 2009, at 13:51:11
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas? » Zana, posted by jrbecker76 on May 20, 2009, at 9:49:21
After starting this thread I switched to generic klonopin from brand in an effort to save money and try to start to reduce dose to the lowest effective level if not off it all together.
I stayed on the same dose, 2mgs. But my anxiety has become unbearable, I'm withdrawing from social activities and not sleeping well. So last night I went back on brand and feel much better, slept better and feel much less social anxiety. I'm convinced that some of the generic medicines out there are bunk and dangerous. I googled the topic and seems there is a lot of information out there about this.
I still plan on going down on dose, but I'll do it using brand. It's hard enough to lower your dose on this stuff, but throwing issues with generic on top of it is more than I can deal with.
Lot's of info out there about generics vs brand and if your interestested, just google it. I suspect there are a lot of people who are taking the right medicine, but don't do well simply because of a bad batch of generic medicine.
Posted by Cherry Carver on June 2, 2009, at 14:31:04
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by RobertDavid on June 2, 2009, at 13:51:11
> After starting this thread I switched to generic klonopin from brand in an effort to save money and try to start to reduce dose to the lowest effective level if not off it all together.
>
> I stayed on the same dose, 2mgs. But my anxiety has become unbearable, I'm withdrawing from social activities and not sleeping well. So last night I went back on brand and feel much better, slept better and feel much less social anxiety. I'm convinced that some of the generic medicines out there are bunk and dangerous. I googled the topic and seems there is a lot of information out there about this.
>
> I still plan on going down on dose, but I'll do it using brand. It's hard enough to lower your dose on this stuff, but throwing issues with generic on top of it is more than I can deal with.
>
> Lot's of info out there about generics vs brand and if your interestested, just google it. I suspect there are a lot of people who are taking the right medicine, but don't do well simply because of a bad batch of generic medicine.I'm glad I found this site, because I had the same problem with generic Klonopin (clonazepam). It absolutely didn't work for me. I don't know what's in it, but my reaction was exactly like yours. My pharmacist was just trying to save me money, but he had no clue how serious my panic is. If I don't take this medication, I become catatonic. I've been on it for 14 years. Unless they cure me, I will be taking it as long as I live. Moreover, Klonopin is the only drug that makes me feel normal, unlike Ativan or Valium. I don't feel spaced-out or wired.
About withdrawing: Currently I take one mg a day, but I started at three. It wasn't too hard; I took it down to two for awhile, and finally felt right at one milligram. Take it easy and listen to your body if you start feeling panicky. It's a very hard drug to withdraw from.
If you haven't already experienced this: if a doctor tries to put you on an SSRI, you should think twice. Benzos and SSRIs affect your brain in completely different ways. I have tried a very long list of alternatives, and none of them worked, including the much-hyped Cymbalta. I took one dose (30 mgs) of Cymbalta, and I literally almost died.
Good luck to you! I hope this helps.
Posted by RobertDavid on June 2, 2009, at 14:59:32
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas? » RobertDavid, posted by Cherry Carver on June 2, 2009, at 14:31:04
I too have been on klonopin for about 14 years for SAD and GAD. The ONLY medicine that made me feel normal. I tried all the SSRI's and so many other meds including cocktails combining meds, but it was all side effects with no benefits.
My doctor who is also an anxiety researcher told me years ago not to go generic, but in these economic times and trying to go down on dose I just thought I'd try it. As posted I bombed and can't believe how much better I feel today back on brand. So for the cost of a cup of coffee per pill I think I'll skip the coffee and go with brand klonopin.
Somehow I suspect a lot of people never find the right medicine because they tried it as generic when brand might have worked, but that's just my take.
I'm flushing the generic down the toilet where it belongs. There should be some sort of better system regulating generics as far as I'm conserned.
Posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2009, at 17:02:12
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by RobertDavid on June 2, 2009, at 13:51:11
Robert posted a link at bottom of page seems so many problems for people on the generics. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on June 2, 2009, at 17:31:48
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas? » Cherry Carver, posted by RobertDavid on June 2, 2009, at 14:59:32
> Somehow I suspect a lot of people never find the right medicine because they tried it as generic when brand might have worked, but that's just my take.
I never thought of that, but you are absolutely right.
> I'm flushing the generic down the toilet where it belongs. There should be some sort of better system regulating generics as far as I'm conserned.I'm with you.
I recently was switched from brand name Lamictal to generic lamotrigine. I lost the benefit and relapsed into depression. When I restarted the name brand, I recovered.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2009, at 20:30:51
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas? » RobertDavid, posted by SLS on June 2, 2009, at 17:31:48
I know it's true. Life is too short to try and cut costs with your health. Phillipa
Posted by Neal on June 3, 2009, at 21:22:31
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas? » SLS, posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2009, at 20:30:51
It's all interesting, but what answer do you have for those who pay out-of-pocket for their meds?
Posted by Phillipa on June 3, 2009, at 21:43:16
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by Neal on June 3, 2009, at 21:22:31
Just my opinion if only one med then do it. Phillipa
Posted by RobertDavid on June 4, 2009, at 0:08:09
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by Neal on June 3, 2009, at 21:22:31
Unfortunately I pay out of pocket and am currently unemployed, but I can't function on generic so I just have to do without to buy brand. I wish generic worked for me, but I've tried and failed twice now. I'm two days back on brand and feeling better.
Posted by rollingthunder on June 4, 2009, at 16:22:57
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas? » Neal, posted by RobertDavid on June 4, 2009, at 0:08:09
_
It would seem, just from a legal view, that those generic makers would be taking a big chance by screwing with the formula. Because anyone could take a pill and have it analyzed by a chemist and compared to brand name.
That could be a basis for a law-suite running into 8-9 figures. Why would they take the chance? Admittedly their standards may be lower, perhaps the ingredients aren't as fresh or whatever.
I take generic and haven't had problems, but maybe I'm too dumb to know the difference.
_
Posted by RobertDavid on June 4, 2009, at 16:57:50
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas? » RobertDavid, posted by rollingthunder on June 4, 2009, at 16:22:57
It's my understading generics are allowed a variance by the FDA something like 20% +/- potency(not positive about that fact, but no doubt there is a difference). I don't think just being generic is bad and there are probably many meds that generic differences from brand are not issues. I've heard that many of the generics are made in different countries and can't imagine how they can all be tested for potency, release systems and other ingredients or that their standards for manufacturing would be the same as brand. All I know is my experence with klonopin generic, on two occasions has been a bust. I have a friend who had the same problem switching from brand zoloft to generic, within a week was having big issues and her doctor told her to go back on brand which solved the problem. I really can't afford brand right now but unfortunately I can't function without it.....
Posted by Phillipa on June 4, 2009, at 19:37:15
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas? » rollingthunder, posted by RobertDavid on June 4, 2009, at 16:57:50
Rob that's wonderful that you are so much better. Love Phillipa ps now you can function again!!!!
Posted by Cherry Carver on June 4, 2009, at 20:34:24
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas?, posted by Neal on June 3, 2009, at 21:22:31
I pay out of pocket for Klonopin. I'm not insured OR wealthy. I just have to do it because for me, there is no alternative. Generic clonazepam is terrible stuff.
Posted by qbsbrown on June 4, 2009, at 22:02:49
In reply to Re: Withdrawing from Klonopin - Ideas? » Neal, posted by Cherry Carver on June 4, 2009, at 20:34:24
I'm finding myself in the same situation.
I'm weaning off of valium, but am taking the generic, and it's like a sugar/placebo pill.
Brand name is SUPER expensive.
I don't know what the hell to do.
Perhaps it's the generic version, Mylan, that sucks.I did fine on ivxx teva generic klonopin, and fine on sandoz generic xanax.
Generic Ativan was terrible.Maybe just switch generics?
Brian
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