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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 10:36:41
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 10:27:08
> > > Do you ever think that one's brain lowers the happy chemicals from time to time to help one get a better grasp of reality?
> > No.
> > I find the inverse to be true. My perception of reality and ability to function more effectively in it are greatly improved during periods of remission of biological depression.
> > I think of healthy depressions in the absence of affective disorder to be a mechanism by which a primate under extraordinary stress conserves energy and induces quiescence. I see that most healthy depression as a reaction to some sort of loss - whether it be a person, a job, a favorite tool, hopes and dreams, or anything else of importance to the individual.
> Yeah, thats a typical SLS responce.
Yes, it is, thank God.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 11:20:19
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » linkadge, posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 10:36:41
>Yes, it is, thank God.
You can thank him if you like.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 11:26:19
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 11:20:19
> >Yes, it is, thank God.
>
> You can thank him if you like.
>
> LinkadgeYou have no idea how many times I have thanked Him for the blessings that have allowed me to survive such a crushing illness while maintaining an optimistic outlook and an appreciation for all the joys and positive forces that this Universe has to offer. I have been blessed with positive energy.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 13:06:37
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » linkadge, posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 11:26:19
>You have no idea how many times I have thanked >Him for the blessings that have allowed me to >survive such a crushing illness while >maintaining an optimistic outlook and an >appreciation for all the joys and positive >forces that this Universe has to offer. I have >been blessed with positive energy.
I always find it interesting the types of things that people consider "gifts from God".
For example: "We are blessed by God in Canada to have all this wonderful clean drinking water".
But, the thoughful person then asks themself. Why would God bless this country with clean drinking water and yet give another countries disease infested refuse potty water to feed to their children till they end up getting sick and dying?
For every blessing that you think God has given you, there is another person (who is logically as diserving as you of the same blessing) yet is left without.
Most people create an image of God in their mind which is not entirely logical. God, you see, is a neural construct by some indivudals to believe that there is something or someone responsible for the good things. Perhaps it makes them feel in control of their lives.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 13:07:34
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 13:06:37
Some people need a little more temporal lobe grey matter.
Linkadge
Posted by sam K on March 22, 2009, at 13:50:53
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 13:06:37
even if another country has bad water, they still might have something else wonderful canada doesnt have. theres something good about everything mostly. some things just suck
Posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 13:55:31
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 13:06:37
> >You have no idea how many times I have thanked >Him for the blessings that have allowed me to >survive such a crushing illness while >maintaining an optimistic outlook and an >appreciation for all the joys and positive >forces that this Universe has to offer. I have >been blessed with positive energy.
> I always find it interesting the types of things that people consider "gifts from God".
Yes. It is interesting the types of things that some people take for granted.
> For example: "We are blessed by God in Canada to have all this wonderful clean drinking water".
> But, the thoughful person then asks themself.
Yes. I am a thoughtful person. And I, too, have often asked:
> Why would God bless this country with clean drinking water and yet give another countries disease infested refuse potty water to feed to their children till they end up getting sick and dying?
I have found an answer to this dilemma that is routed outside the Western religions' concepts of God.
That God is, does not necessarily prevent nor justify trajedy. That is why I try to take nothing for granted. The more things that I deem are gifts, the wealthier I become.
> For every blessing that you think God has given you, there is another person (who is logically as diserving as you of the same blessing) yet is left without.
This is a Western concept. To me, it seems linear and bipolar. I find it more productive to think of things in terms of matrices.
> Most people create an image of God in their mind which is not entirely logical.
According to whom?
It seems illogical to me that one can fathom existence without God.
> God, you see, is a neural construct by some indivudals
As are all semantic representations that evolve from the human mind.
> to believe that there is something or someone responsible for the good things. Perhaps it makes them feel in control of their lives.
Any positive control that I have in my life is a gift and another blessing. It is a personal achievement. Thankfully, I have achieved much, despite depression. For this, I am grateful and indeed blessed.
I am usually quite happy, even in the presence of depression. If this is a sickness, may I never recover...
- Scott
Posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 13:58:39
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by sam K on March 22, 2009, at 13:50:53
> theres something good about everything mostly. some things just suck
Yes!
You get it.
I hope I may use this as a quote from time to time.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 15:17:38
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by sam K on March 22, 2009, at 13:50:53
>some things just suck
Thats exactly my point. Some people are born into misery, they live in misery and they die in misery.
Some people see their blessings as gifts from god. I just see that there are lucky people and less lucky people.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 15:24:27
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » linkadge, posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 13:55:31
>I have found an answer to this dilemma that is >routed outside the Western religions' concepts >of God.
>That God is, does not necessarily prevent nor >justify trajedy. That is why I try to take >nothing for granted. The more things that I deem >are gifts, the wealthier I become.
Ok, whatever
>This is a Western concept. To me, it seems >linear and bipolar. I find it more productive to >think of things in terms of matrices.Ok, whatever
>> Most people create an image of God in their >>mind which is not entirely logical.>According to whom?
According to simple observations about the nature of the world around us.
>It seems illogical to me that one can fathom >existence without God.
Clinical depression can be an existence without God.
>I am usually quite happy, even in the presence >of depression. If this is a sickness, may I >never recover...Ok, whatever. I am remembering again why this board is a waste of my time.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 15:30:30
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » sam K, posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 13:58:39
>> theres something good about everything mostly. >some things just suck
>Yes!
>You get it.
SLS, I love the way you try to rope other people onto your side of the argument without providing any form of justification. SAM made the point that "some things just suck". Unfortunately, those "some things" happen to be people's lives.If you choose to believe in a God who randomly blesses some people and destines others to an eternity of mysery go right ahead. Well, perhaps you don't see it that way. To be honest, I really don't care how you see it because it's not as if you are about to lay it out clear for any of us.
Linkadge
Posted by raisinb on March 22, 2009, at 15:36:06
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 15:30:30
To see/create larger meaning in life or experience.
To quote Deitrich Bonhoeffer: "There is no such thing as a nonreligious man," i.e., there is no man who does not believe in something larger than himself that creates meaning to his life.
We could see depression as the loss of this ability to create meaning.
From my point of view, it does not matter whether God or any other religious being does or does not exist. What does matter is an individual's ability to achieve hope and a meaningful narrative of the trials and beauty of his life. Religion can serve this need for some, but it doesn't have to be that.
Posted by SLS on March 23, 2009, at 7:13:42
In reply to it is a human need, posted by raisinb on March 22, 2009, at 15:36:06
> We could see depression as the loss of this ability to create meaning.
Depression can crush spirituality. Spirituality is one of the many casualties of this disease.
> What does matter is an individual's ability to achieve hope
My spirituality, along with a bit of logic, is what allowed me to have hope for 25 years of treatment failures while being severely depressed.
> and a meaningful narrative of the trials and beauty of his life.
That's an interesting way to describe it - "narrative".
I do think like that sometimes when reflecting on my life - past, present, and future. I hadn't recognized that I was narrating at times. Thanks for the insight.
- Scott
Posted by garnet71 on March 23, 2009, at 10:17:50
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 15:24:27
Linkadge,
Did you have a bad experience with religion in the past? I sense some intense bitterness with what you said. I don't mean that in a bad way, but is something eating away at you?
My mother went to a Catholic school. She has such a bitterness about religion, but it's because other things in her life manifest as anger toward the religion. I don't mean in any way that someone who is non religious is bitter at religion as opposed to not believing it, but wondering if it has something to do with some things you said. Maybe I'm totally off.
BTW-people can believe in God outside of a "being" or entity that makes decisions.
This is a really, really cool site. Take this short test:
http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Quizzes/BeliefOMatic.aspx
I'm spiritual rather than religious, and my top 2 'religions' came out to be Quaker and Universalism and Buddhist. It's a cool experiment-give it a try. :) Linkadge, you might actually like the concept of Universalism, if i remember the name correctly.
Posted by garnet71 on March 23, 2009, at 10:41:00
In reply to Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 20, 2009, at 18:45:13
I thought it was worth mentioning, Linkadge, that some believe man created religion--but to some, that doesn't mean there is no God.
Religions coincide with changes in society. That's why in agricultural societies, people prayed to rain gods, etc., and organized their religions around harvests. Later on when people congregated in cities, it became political and means to gain power, and to gain followers that comprised an army - hence you're going to hell if you don't become a member of this church and offerings. Narcisstic leaders had used it to control people. Slavery and oppression again, brought about another type of religion---the concept of a savior.
But also, people, long ago, had to deal with famines and plagues and death on a massive scale, hence the development of an entity that punished them-it was a way to deal with all the hardship and an attempt to control the world around you-nature. People had hope because if they thought they did good deeds, bad things wouldn't happen. AFter that, in the englightment period (i think that's the one-or the Renaissance), is when people started turning to science as a means to explain the world around them and control nature. Building dams was one example. This eventually led to the current trend where many scientists don't believe in God. Of course, many scientists do believe in God-but in my personal experience, it's less common than outside of the science world.
Humans develop culture-beliefs, values, that help us explain the world around us. So when the world changes, religion changes.
Now that online connections are growing, I'd expect physical churches to become less common in 50 years, and big shift from religion to spirituality-just a guess.
I'm no anthropologist-so I'm not good at explaining how I look at this and articulating all the stuff in my head, but religion is a huge interest to me and wanted to share.
Humans will always look for creative ways to engage hope and to deal with pain. So in much of a sense, religions make us more human.
Posted by raisinb on March 23, 2009, at 10:49:26
In reply to Re: it is a human need » raisinb, posted by SLS on March 23, 2009, at 7:13:42
There are actually narrative therapists out there who work in this way.
It probably makes sense to me because I teach literature. But we could think of depression as a storytelling failure (yeah, I know, but bear with me...)
When a person experiences something horrible, his ability to cope and survive emotionally often depends on his ability to find meaning in it. For some, it's "this was horrible, but I learned..." or "I lost this, but I gained this..." or "it made me realize..." and "it fits into my life and my self-concept in this way, because I grew like this..."
If a person can't integrate whatever happens into a largely positive story of himself--in which he's the protagonist (not the pointless mistake or detail) and trials mean something or teach him something--then he's screwed.Part of my "story" is that my parents screwed up pretty badly when raising me. But then I listen to Johnny Cash, "A boy named Sue" and I realize that just like the dude in the song, I can kick and fight and be strong partly because of my crappy childhood.
Posted by seldomseen on March 23, 2009, at 12:00:38
In reply to Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 20, 2009, at 18:45:13
Well, I do think people's mood fluctuates from time to time, but I'm not sure it is designed to provide a more reality driven state.
I think a "happy" reality is just as real as a "morose" reality.
I think clinical depression is a chronic potentially fatal disease process. I lean toward separating it from the more spiritual interpretation of the symptoms.
However, the suffering it causes is very real and the search for meaning in that suffering I think is a uniquely admirable trait.
I also think that, just as life-style changes can ameliorate other illnesses, changes in thought patterns, stress management and ventures out of the "depression-induced comfort zone" can help.
While I want to make clear that I do not think one can *will*, *think* or *pray* their way free from depression, these actions certainly fall well within the "first do no harm" approach to treatment and may be of benefit.
In the field in which I work we use the mantra "prayer and predisone" when nothing else seems to be working.
Seldom
Seldom.
Posted by metric on March 23, 2009, at 17:18:27
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by SLS on March 22, 2009, at 8:24:54
> > Do you ever think that one's brain lowers the happy chemicals from time to time to help one get a better grasp of reality?
>
> No.
>
> I find the inverse to be true. My perception of reality and ability to function more effectively in it are greatly improved during periods of remission of biological depression.
>
> I think of healthy depressions in the absence of affective disorder to be a mechanism by which a primate under extraordinary stress conserves energy and induces quiescence. I see that most healthy depression as a reaction to some sort of loss - whether it be a person, a job, a favorite tool, hopes and dreams, or anything else of importance to the individual.I'm confused. As every facet of life is biological, what meaning is the qualifier "biological" intended to convey in the context "biological depression"?
Posted by metric on March 23, 2009, at 17:42:37
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » linkadge, posted by bleauberry on March 21, 2009, at 20:12:39
> > >No.
> >
> > >I do believe however, for those that have faith >in the words of the Bible, that God allows >suffering in this lifetime as one of the only >means to get us to turn to Him.
> >
> > I once thought that way. But then I realized, whether or not I was with 'him' (whoever he was), I was still had pretty much the same level of mysery in my life. And, would I really want to be with somebody who is going to make me suffer if I don't choose him - thats the definition of an abusive relaitonship.
> >
> >
> > Linkadge
> >
>
> Well, this isn't the forum to discuss that. I didn't mean to take your thread off topic. But your comments have nothing to do with anything the Bible has to say. Those comments do not fit.
>
> God does not "make" us suffer. That is Satan the devil doing that. Satan is the inventor of disease, pain, lies, and deceit. Thankfully, it is not that way forever. A time is coming. People who purposely turn away God on their own free will, well, would you welcome that person into your Kingdom?
>Those are the *only* ones I'd welcome into *my* kingdom. Why would I want someone who'd submit his will only to save his own *ss? It takes more courage to reject the comfort and simplicity of fairytales sold by false prophets than it does to affirm life based on empirical reality.
Posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2009, at 20:03:05
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » linkadge, posted by garnet71 on March 23, 2009, at 10:17:50
Unitarian Universalist. That was my score. Love Phillipa
Posted by SLS on March 23, 2009, at 20:13:58
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » SLS, posted by metric on March 23, 2009, at 17:18:27
> I'm confused.
> As every facet of life is biological, what meaning is the qualifier "biological" intended to convey in the context "biological depression"?
Biogenic versus reactive.
- Scott
Posted by Neal on March 23, 2009, at 23:26:19
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset » linkadge, posted by raisinb on March 20, 2009, at 22:25:46
Two books I read by Pdocs said the same thing, that depressed people have the clearest grasp on "reality" of anyone. I guess they meant that most people see the world through rose-colored glasses.
But in monkey studies the monkeys that liked to be alone and away from the troop are the ones that warn of invaders.
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on March 24, 2009, at 0:37:18
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by linkadge on March 22, 2009, at 15:24:27
> Ok, whatever. I am remembering again why this board is a waste of my time.
Please don't post anything that could lead others (such as the posters who make up - and post on - this board) to feel put down, and please be sensitive to their feelings.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternate ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin, and should of course, be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
--10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 24, 2009, at 3:02:49
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by metric on March 23, 2009, at 17:42:37
> the comfort and simplicity of fairytales sold by false prophets
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others (such as those that have religious faith) even if yours are hurt.
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person or want to hurt you.
More information about posting policies is in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Also, posts about religious faith should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Faith.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by SLS on March 24, 2009, at 12:08:34
In reply to Re: Depression as a brain homeostatic reset, posted by Neal on March 23, 2009, at 23:26:19
Interesting:
**********************************************
Spirituality, religion and suicidal behavior in a nationally representative sample.
1: J Affect Disord. 2009 Apr;114(1-3):32-40. Epub 2008 Sep 16.
Rasic DT, Belik SL, Elias B, Katz LY, Enns M, Sareen J; Swampy Cree Suicide Prevention Team.
Collaborators (12)Sareen J, Elias B, Munro G, Katz L, Enns M, Cox BJ, O'Neil J, Cook C, Belik SL, Mota N, Isaak C, Campeau M.
Department of Psychiatry, Dalhousie University, Canada.
BACKGROUND: Studies show that religion and spirituality are associated with decreased rates of mental illness. Some studies show decreased rates of suicide in religious populations, but the association between religion, spirituality and suicidal behaviors in people with mental illness are understudied. Few studies have examined the influence of social supports in these relationships. METHODS: Data were drawn from the Canadian Community Health Survey 1.2. Logistic regression was used to examine the relationship between spiritual values and religious worship attendance with twelve-month suicidal ideation and attempts. Regressions were adjusted for sociodemographic factors and social supports. Interaction variables were then tested to examine possible effect modification by presence of a mental disorder. RESULTS: Identifying oneself as spiritual was associated with decreased odds of suicide attempt (adjusted odds ratio-1 [AOR-1]=0.65, CI: 0.44-0.96) but was not significant after adjusting for social supports. Religious attendance was associated with decreased odds of suicidal ideation (AOR-1=0.64, 95% CI: 0.53-0.77) but not after adjusting for social supports. Religious attendance was associated with decreased odds of suicide attempt and remained significant after adjusting for social supports (AOR-2=0.38, 95% CI: 0.17-0.89). No significant interaction effects were observed between any of the tested mental disorders and religion, spirituality and suicidal behavior. LIMITATIONS: This was a cross-sectional survey and causality of relationships cannot be inferred. CONCLUSIONS: Results suggest that religious attendance is associated with decreased suicide attempts in the general population and in those with a mental illness independent of the effects of social supports.
**********************************************
- Scott
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