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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by myco on January 23, 2009, at 18:23:21
Hey
I understand benzos work by playing off gaba receptors to relieve anxiety and muscle tension and suffer from tolerance/"poop out" after sometime. If one of the beneficial effects (and its my hunch this is what I respond so well to) is associated with gaba is it possible that nardil "poop out", that is often experienced, is the effect of tolerance involving gaba? I'm trying to understand this med fully.
thnx
atypical depression, gad, social anxiety
75mg nardil
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 25, 2009, at 10:45:14
In reply to Making sense of NARDIL 'poop out' (benzo like?), posted by myco on January 23, 2009, at 18:23:21
> Hey
>
> I understand benzos work by playing off gaba receptors to relieve anxiety and muscle tension and suffer from tolerance/"poop out" after sometime. If one of the beneficial effects (and its my hunch this is what I respond so well to) is associated with gaba is it possible that nardil "poop out", that is often experienced, is the effect of tolerance involving gaba? I'm trying to understand this med fully.
>
> thnx
>
>
> atypical depression, gad, social anxiety
> 75mg nardilHi ;-)
Hummm, I think that's not true...I mean, benzo drugs act on gaba of the type A, a more powerfull action than the one who occur with the drugs who act on the gaba-B type.The Nardil act on the gaba-B type, like others anticonvulsives drugs do (Gabapentin, Lyrica...) but I think it's different than the anticonvulsives drugs because the Nardil increase the level of the gaba-B in the brains...the anticonvulsives drugs only block a channel on them but don't increase the number of gaba-B in the brains... Just go on wikipedia website and search for the gaba...they explain it very well...
I don'T think the Nardil stop working because of the tolerance on the gaba-B type of receptors...It's another mystery of life...I don't think that even the Pharmacist or the PDoc or Doctors in research field even know how the AD's drugs works or how the anticonvulsives drugs works also...
One thing is sure, the Gaba-B effect from the Nardil work more well than the Gaba-B effect of anticonvulsives drugs...from my experience....since I try all the anticonvulsives drugs who act on the gaba-B receptors and I never get a relief of my anxiety on them...They do nothing on me...The Nardil had a more calming effect on me...but i'm not sure if it'S the Gaba-B effect or another effect (SE, NE or DA...)...
So the poop-up effect of the Nardil occurying for another reason...maybe like the poop-up of all the others drugs...They all lost some power after a while...PRobably because the brains adapted alone to the effect of the drug...
Too bad i'm not very good in English...sometimes I wish to explain something more well but in English I feel limited...So sorry for this...
Posted by desolationrower on January 25, 2009, at 10:50:25
In reply to Making sense of NARDIL 'poop out' (benzo like?), posted by myco on January 23, 2009, at 18:23:21
phenibut seems to get tolerance quite quickly, so gaba-b might be related to part of whats going on.
-d/r
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 25, 2009, at 14:26:09
In reply to Re: Making sense of NARDIL 'poop out' (benzo like?), posted by desolationrower on January 25, 2009, at 10:50:25
> phenibut seems to get tolerance quite quickly, so gaba-b might be related to part of whats going on.
>
> -d/rHummm, we talk about the Nardil effect on the Gaba-B...Phenibut seem to me not very use around the world...I don't know someone who still use it in fact...What I found about Phenibut explain the fast tolerance about THAT specific drug...but that's not necessary apply to the Nardil effect on the gaba-b type...For this reason, I don't think the poop-up effect of the Nardil is related to his gaba-b effect...In fact, Nardil increase the level of gaba-b...but the main action of the Nardil is on the SE, NE and DA....the gaba-b is an extra...We can argue a long time on this...but for the little I know about the Nardil...I don't think we can compare it to the Phenibut...or any others anticonvulsives drugs like Lyrica or Gabapentin...even Baclofen...Anyway, tolerance always occur with drugs at one point...but that's not pointing necessary to the GABA-B effect of the Nardil... IF so, why the Parnate have a HIGH tendency to poop-up after a couple of days??? We even don't know if the Parnate act on the gaba-b... I really don't think it's related anyway...
Like I wrote before, the benzo drugs are not the same...it's gaba-A effect... Differents drugs and also differents rings attached to the gaba-A receptors act differently on a person...I try the Frisium (CLobazam), aparrently, it was a 1-5 gaba-a type...affecting differents sites of the gaba-a receptor...and that drug never relief me of my anxiety...normal benzo drugs or the more common have a 1-4 structure... Anyway, i'm not a Doctor or a pharmacist...but I know one thing, I experienced a lot of benzo drugs and anticonvulsives drugs who acts on gaba-a or gaba-b and i'm sure tolerance can occur at one point...but that's different from people to people...the same apply to people who take Rivotril for several years without any addiction problem and others like me who get addicted after 1 month on it...and even if the double dosage , never reach a the same level of relief on the anxiety after...
"Tolerance develops to many of the effects of phenibut, although it is reported that it does not develop to the nootropic effect. The first signs of tolerance may be seen within as little as five days. For this reason, it is commonly used for one to two week periods, or dosage is increased by 25-30% after two weeks [2]. This makes phenibut ideal for short periods of stress or anxiety, but not ideal for chronic use. It is possible that taking only one dose daily may partially reduce the development of tolerance.
Persons on MAO inhibitors or epilepsy medications like carbamazepine or oxcarbazepine should consult with their psychiatrist/physician prior to supplementation with phenibut. Clinical research has demonstrated that phenibut can potentate or inhibit the function of some epilepsy medications."
Posted by desolationrower on January 25, 2009, at 22:10:02
In reply to Re: Making sense of NARDIL 'poop out' (benzo like?) » desolationrower, posted by Vincent_QC on January 25, 2009, at 14:26:09
well i'd guess that the poop-out-able effects of parnate are more due to AMP like catecholamine release. similar to the way AMP dosage needs constant and fast acceleratio to keep it euphoric.
-d/r
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 26, 2009, at 7:02:02
In reply to Re: Making sense of NARDIL 'poop out' (benzo like?) » Vincent_QC, posted by desolationrower on January 25, 2009, at 22:10:02
> well i'd guess that the poop-out-able effects of parnate are more due to AMP like catecholamine release. similar to the way AMP dosage needs constant and fast acceleratio to keep it euphoric.
>
> -d/rLol.... My god...are you sure you don't studies in the pharmacist field? ;-) That's a joke here...don'T take it personnaly... ;-)
By AMP you mean the amphetamine structure similar than the Parnate one??? It make a lot a sense...It's probably why I was sensible to the Parnate effect (augmentation of levels of dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine into the blood stream), they affect my heart and my blood pressure.
Since the destruction of the MAO high the levels of catecholamines...I still wonder why I found the Parnate to be less stable and more high in side-effects than the Nardil?
The Nardil have a more neutral effect and is a more easy AD's with less to no side-effect at all, exception of the daytime sedation (Parnate also give more daytime sedation with time) and the orthostatic hypotension at high dosage...IS it because it's less efficiently than the Parnate???
I always think the Parnate was responsable of a more powerfull action on the monoamine oxidase B and the Nardil was more hard on the type-A...And I also link the MAO B to DA and NE and MAO A to SE...but now i'm confuse...since I read than the lack of MAO A high the levels of dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine...I still don'T know now the actions of the MAO A and on witch neuortransmitters it work...the same apply for the MAO B...
But who know...I never found a study who show the amount of mao A or B who is destroy by the Nardil or the Parnate...I only know some informations about the Manerix who apparently, a simple dose of 300mg destroy 80% of the mao A and 30% of mao B...but anyway, i'm out of subject here and I hate the effects of the Manerix...too much anxiety increase on it and migraines...
Posted by desolationrower on January 26, 2009, at 11:37:34
In reply to Re: Making sense of NARDIL 'poop out' (benzo like?) » desolationrower, posted by Vincent_QC on January 26, 2009, at 7:02:02
if it is the case that nardil and parnate have different affinities for MAOa and MAOb, i have never seen anything indicating it.
-d/r
Posted by ace on January 31, 2009, at 7:20:29
In reply to Making sense of NARDIL 'poop out' (benzo like?), posted by myco on January 23, 2009, at 18:23:21
> Hey
>
> I understand benzos work by playing off gaba receptors to relieve anxiety and muscle tension and suffer from tolerance/"poop out" after sometime.Hi! Actually I have never heard of Benzo 'poop-out' whatsoever. I have heard of people saying they need higher and higher doses to sustain the same therapeutic efficacy, but I dismiss this.
If one of the beneficial effects (and its my hunch this is what I respond so well to) is associated with gaba is it possible that nardil "poop out", that is often experienced, is the effect of tolerance involving gaba? I'm trying to understand this med fully.
Very hard to say. I am certain Nardil's elevation of GABA in the brain does account for SOME of it's effect, but I think it's efficacy, and poop-out (I am not too sure about this phenomenons validity either), would be interrelated with Nardil's effecting 3 main NT's: 3 that have been identified in depression.
Sorry for such uncertainty, certainly MAOI's warrant much more research,
Ace:)
>
> thnx
>
>
> atypical depression, gad, social anxiety
> 75mg nardil
Posted by SLS on January 31, 2009, at 7:32:20
In reply to Re: Making sense of NARDIL 'poop out' (benzo like?) » myco, posted by ace on January 31, 2009, at 7:20:29
Hi Ace.
Long time no see.
> ...but I think it's efficacy, and poop-out (I am not too sure about this phenomenons validity either)
Yeah. I can testify that Nardil poop-out is a real phenomenon. The first time I took 60mg, I felt GREAT for 3-4 weeks. Then it died. Going to 120mg didn't help.
- Scott
Posted by JadeKelly on February 6, 2009, at 3:10:06
In reply to Re: Making sense of NARDIL 'poop out' (benzo like?) » myco, posted by ace on January 31, 2009, at 7:20:29
This is the end of the thread.
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