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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by bulldog2 on November 16, 2008, at 8:36:33
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum?, posted by linkadge on November 16, 2008, at 6:46:15
> Don't get me wrong, at the end of the day I really don't care which path you choose.
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> I just personally cannot follow my mother's path. I want a better future than she had.
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> She was diagnosed as bipolar at my age and did the whole conventional medication thing.
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> Sure her disorder responded to psychiatric medications during the acute crisis, but what happens after that?
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> Its been on and off this or that mood stabilizer, antipsychotic, antidepressant etc. She has gone steadily downhill and now a once highly intellegent university graduate has only a fraction of her faculties left.
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> She has a number of diseases (liver, kidney, diabeties) now as a result of the use of psychiatric medications and her moods are not well controlled.
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> I started on psychiatric meds before university and saw my grades plummit. I went from A's to D's because the mood stabilizers (especially antipsychotics) made it impossible to concentrate or study. I was hospitalized 3 times for a month or more, during which I was put on combinations of 5-10 medications and told I would never be able to come off them.
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> Anyhow, to make a long story short, I slowly came off the drugs half way through university and started to eat well, exercise, and started to experiment with alternatives.
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> My grades went up to A's in third and 4th year univesity (which is very rare for people who don't do well in 1st and 2nd year) and I graduated and am now on my way to be a math/physics teacher.
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> I guess what I am trying to say is that if I belived the doctors at the hospital, I would still be on 5-10 medications, I would have dropped out of university and my brain would still be sustaining who knows what form of neurological insults.
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> Thats my story, take from it what you will.
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> Don't get me wrong. My moods are not always %100, but I am certainly doing better overall off meds.
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> Linkadge
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> Don't get me wrong, at the end of the day I really don't care which path you chooseI wouldn't expect you to. Why even bring that up.
We're discussing an issue about toxic meds.Again we have to remember that what worked for you may not work for others.You were one of the lucky ones that found a natural formula that worked. Others have not been that fortunate.
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> By the way nac and folate may be a good adjunct to antisezure meds and also prevent cogntive decline. Nac has is a powerful antioxidant and may protect the liver and kidneys. So one may get the best of both worlds.
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Posted by linkadge on November 16, 2008, at 9:50:18
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum?, posted by bulldog2 on November 16, 2008, at 8:36:33
>Again we have to remember that what worked for >you may not work for others.You were one of the >lucky ones that found a natural formula that >worked. Others have not been that fortunate.
I don't beleive there is anything inherently wrong with taking medications. I just think that people need to keep an open mind. There are still many misconceptions today. Even still these days, I hear people talking about how they have a defective serotonin gene, and how the SSRI's fix the problem. Doctors are actually still telling their patients this, even though such claims are completely unfounded.
There is too much faith (IMHO) in what doctors want to present as 'established' facts about mood disorders. In many ways we are finding out things that are completely contradictory to conventional belifes.
The 'serotonin hypothesis' of depression for isntance, grows weaker with every year of research. I think that some people believe that the only true cures can come from doctors. Faith in the efficacy of a treatment probably accounts for more than half of a treatment's efficacy. For most people, alternatives probably don't work because of a lack of faith in their efficacy.
I started to loose faith in the validiy of modern psychiatry as I leared about just how biased much of the data on conventional antidepressants is. In many ways, the drugs stopped working as I began to loose that faith.
In some ways it was a painful paradigm shift that I did not want to embrace. But the more I sift through research the more I learn that concerns me about what people are lead to believe.
I mean, if you want to talk lack of research, just look at some of the drug coctails that patients are given. Patients are given meds for bipolar like topomax, gapapentin, dispite the fact that there is virtually no data to support their use in bipolar. Numerous untested coctails are routinely used are used in mood disorders. Many studies indiciate that combinations of certain drugs increase the nerotoxicity. I remember reading that an SSRI / depakote combination created a synergistic increase in oxadative stress and free radical production compared to either alone.
In mood disorders there are a nummber of findings about things like excessive neurogenic inflamation, mitochondrial dysfunction, glial pathologies, HPA axis imballences, electrolyte imbalances, oxadative stress, significantly depleated anxioxidant systems etc. Many of these things are probably better adressed through dietary and lifestyle manipulations.
Many medication depleat nutirents that heal. Some increase oxidative stress, some are cause mitochondrial dysfunction, some are neuroendocrine disruptorrs, some worsen HPA axis imballances.
Linkadge
Posted by ricker on November 16, 2008, at 16:09:24
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum?, posted by linkadge on November 16, 2008, at 9:50:18
Link, I have not been at this site long, but I've noticed 99.9% of your post's are in this section.
With a constant that rings loud, anti-meds.I have no problem with that and applaud you for the time/research you've invested towards recovery.
My sole purpose for frequenting this site is... support, education, and sharing positive experiences.
I've peeked at the other board - Psycho-Babble Alternative expecting to see it littered with post's from you, but no, I was surprised to see very little??
I asked myself why someone with a truly negative dislike for pharmaceuticals apparently feels a need to rid the world of all "presciptions"? Almost crusade like??
It's not for me to ask one's intentions, but I certainly can express "my" desire for positive, progressive input. Sure, we all have our extreme down time and submit negative post's that reflect our feelings. But when the pattern is constant, I can't help but feel sorry for the poster.
Best, Rick
Posted by linkadge on November 16, 2008, at 20:28:00
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum? » linkadge, posted by ricker on November 16, 2008, at 16:09:24
Um, where did I say not to take medications?
I still periodically take medications and have no problem with that.
I think your pro-med attitude is probably unfairly interpreting my ballanced view of the beneifits and risks of psychiatric medications.
I am not trying to rid the world of psychiatric medications. I just like to discus some of the false beliefs regarding their safety and/or efficacy.
If you are coming here to look specifically for pro-med discussions you are not really doing yourself any long term justice IMHO.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 16, 2008, at 20:31:03
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum? » linkadge, posted by ricker on November 16, 2008, at 16:09:24
If you want to specifically attack some assertion or comment that I have made in my posts go ahead, but please don't arrive at erronious conclusions about that I am saying based on the fact that you are hearing things you may not want to consider.
Linkadge
Posted by ricker on November 16, 2008, at 20:52:33
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum? » ricker, posted by linkadge on November 16, 2008, at 20:31:03
> If you want to specifically attack some assertion or comment that I have made in my posts go ahead, but please don't arrive at erronious conclusions about that I am saying based on the fact that you are hearing things you may not want to consider.
Heavens no, one per board is plenty!! :)
Posted by elanor roosevelt on November 16, 2008, at 22:48:14
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum?, posted by bulldog2 on November 15, 2008, at 9:27:50
odd but i have always been encouraged by the others on this board to hang in with my drug trials
the meds are different with each of us
maybe we need two columns one for "it worked for me" and one for "not"there is a sense of futility here because so many of us are treatment resistant
that said, I just spent a month studying the alternative board and i don't know which end is up
if you find a board that you feel is more helpful please babblemail me and let me know
good luck
Posted by linkadge on November 17, 2008, at 7:11:57
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum?, posted by elanor roosevelt on November 16, 2008, at 22:48:14
Theres no point in encouraging someobody under false pretences.
While you may be making them feel better now, but what happens down the road?
I had the head psychiatrist in the Grand River hosptical here in Waterloo Ontario (Dr. Powers) (while I was an inpatient), tell me that for the most part antidepressant medications are placebos.
She's about the only psychiarist I respected since she at least told it how it is.
Linkadge
Posted by ricker on November 17, 2008, at 13:12:31
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum?, posted by linkadge on November 17, 2008, at 7:11:57
> I had the head psychiatrist in the Grand River hosptical here in Waterloo Ontario (Dr. Powers) (while I was an inpatient), tell me that for the most part antidepressant medications are placebos.
>
> She's about the only psychiarist I respected since she at least told it how it is.I hope you asked to see her credentials.... pretty easy to photoshop "Chief of Staff"... that is, if she actually stated that???
On another note, I had the "Chief of Police" tell me all their side-arms carry blanks! LOL!
Posted by elanor roosevelt on November 17, 2008, at 21:07:31
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum? » linkadge, posted by ricker on November 17, 2008, at 13:12:31
c'mon
can't get all those great side effects with a placeboi think patients should be allowed to prescribe meds for their pdocs
Posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on November 18, 2008, at 16:02:39
In reply to Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum?, posted by bulldog2 on November 13, 2008, at 11:57:12
> When I first starting lurking here about five years ago I was interested in med info on depression/anxiety and probably bipolar 2.
> Problem is there are so many opinions here regarding meds.
> 1. meds and cbt work the best
> 2. meds work
> 3. sometimes meds work
> 4. meds are toxic and p-docs are all fakes
> 5. just need diet and exercise
> 6. try accupuncture and herbs
> etc.
>
> I guess from reading all the negative stuff about meds I never have really completed a med cycle. start and stop quickly except for benzos.
> I have done the diet and exercise regime my entire life and that hasn't really worked. I still slip into depression and anxiety or possible bipolar moods. and yes I have done talk therapy for years without real help.
> So now that i fear p-docs are shams and meds are toxic plots to destroy us it really has made it hard to get and really see if meds work.
> Life is passing me by. All these opinions about meds and p-docs and how to handle mental issues has basically paralyzed me into indecision.
> I wonder if I would have been better off if I had never stumbled on this site. Just trusted my p-doc and given meds a fair shot. I guess that would have been the best way to find out if meds work.
> Anyone find to much info and to many opinions makes treatment more diffucult?Personally, I think this site and the way its moderated is extremely misinformative and in some respects, even dangerous. I have read so much med bs on this board over the years. Its just unbelievable. This board exists mainly as a research tool for Dr. Bob than as a real med support site.
LostBoyinNC
Posted by ricker on November 18, 2008, at 17:32:15
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum?, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on November 18, 2008, at 16:02:39
> Personally, I think this site and the way its moderated is extremely misinformative and in some respects, even dangerous. I have read so much med bs on this board over the years. Its just unbelievable. This board exists mainly as a research tool for Dr. Bob than as a real med support site.
>The only part of this opinion I agree with is; "Personally".
Cheers!
Posted by SLS on November 19, 2008, at 6:10:24
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum?, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on November 18, 2008, at 16:02:39
> Personally, I think this site and the way its moderated is extremely misinformative and in some respects, even dangerous. I have read so much med bs on this board over the years. Its just unbelievable. This board exists mainly as a research tool for Dr. Bob than as a real med support site.
Ok. Fair enough. I think it is good to examine these things occasionally.
Can you provide any postings as citations to substantiate your opinions regarding the casting of misinformation and other things that you find undesirable?
Why do you think this board is dangerous? What is so "unbelievable" to you?
- Scott
Posted by JadeKelly on November 19, 2008, at 13:52:28
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum?, posted by LostBoyinNCBecksDark on November 18, 2008, at 16:02:39
Enlighten us.
~Jade
Posted by Phillipa on November 19, 2008, at 18:56:07
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum? » LostBoyinNCBecksDark, posted by JadeKelly on November 19, 2008, at 13:52:28
He's now blocked for a year. Phillipa
Posted by stargazer2 on November 20, 2008, at 20:16:28
In reply to Re: Anyone Ever Feel More Confused At This Forum?, posted by Phillipa on November 19, 2008, at 18:56:07
That's why I come to site so infrequently today plus I have cured myself after 20 years of treatment. It's a great site for support fro others, but trying to digest the information presented by so many, with such varying backgrounds and "personalities", made it almost impossible to know what advice to listen to.
I like to come here and read postings and write a few responses, but overall I find too much information, too difficult to process and now that I am in remission and working, obviously I do not have much free time.
I wish you all success in finding solutions for your problems. I have struggled more than I care to admit over 30 years with depression and a variety of other less prominent conditions. I still struggle and have to work at staying together. Life is never easy whether you have a medical conditon or not, but a psychiatric diagnosis can be one of the most difficult and least understood, even by so-called experts, as so many of you know.
Just keep fighting for answers and trusting your own ability to work through things that don't work, forging ahead to try new options that might have potential. And don't ever think your doctor has ALL the answers, since I have found that I actually had more of the answers than the docs did. I would have never expected that.
I have come full circle, but the future for everyone, even those without an illness, is not certain.
I have learned that struggles are just part of the human condition and if you give up and accept a marginal existence, there is usually no one who will fight for you (Unless someone understands you and can do this for you). I had to do the fight myself since friends and family never understood what I had.
The worst part about depression is that it robs you of the ability to fight, so it is much harder to find answers and keep trying to get up and do it again day after day.
But I found the strength, somehow, to do this and thank God, I am happy and working right now. It may not be forever, but then again no one's life is ever guaranteed, beyond the moment in which you exist.
Philosophical, but true.
Good night all and stay well or get better, don't settle for less.
Stargazer (the stars are beautiful tonight here in New England, frosty and getting colder every day)
Posted by clipper40 on November 21, 2008, at 7:28:51
In reply to ALWAYS MORE CONFUSED HERE, posted by stargazer2 on November 20, 2008, at 20:16:28
Nice to hear about success stories! I'm very curious - what ended up working for you?
Posted by Phillipa on November 21, 2008, at 18:51:25
In reply to Re: ALWAYS MORE CONFUSED HERE » stargazer2, posted by clipper40 on November 21, 2008, at 7:28:51
I believe nardil. Love Phillipa we're friends.
Posted by clipper40 on November 22, 2008, at 9:36:10
In reply to Re: ALWAYS MORE CONFUSED HERE » clipper40, posted by Phillipa on November 21, 2008, at 18:51:25
Posted by stargazer2 on November 22, 2008, at 16:12:48
In reply to Re: ALWAYS MORE CONFUSED HERE » stargazer2, posted by clipper40 on November 21, 2008, at 7:28:51
I wrote a big long explanation of my attempts to get things on track. It explained everything (I doubt it) but I thought it would help others see what I had to do to figure things out with or without the help of experts. When I went to send it last night, it disappeared and was never to be found.
The simple answer to your question is Nardil with a touch of a stimulant.
The complicated version which tells the med trials and years of being house bound and suicidal is the much more complicated version, but I guess that is better left for me to understand, rather than relive it by explaining it to others.
Perhaps the moral of the story is that relatively easily remedied situations are not always seen for what they are. Sometimes the answers are right in front of us, but not in front of our doctors.
Too bad I wasn't able to prescribe for myself because I always felt my depression had a large component of ADD and my doc refused to go down that path. I'm still not sure why, but it cost me years of lost productivity and missing out on much of life for 20+ years. I had some normal times in the period but there was an overwhelming sense that something was not right in my brain.
I was getting ready to check out if my own attempts to find an answer did not pan out.
I'm so normal now its scarey. The meds turned me into a debilitated person and it makes me sick thinking if it happened to me, it is happening to millions of others.
That is Psychiatry in the 20th century. Frightening to see how far off the target things has gotten. Obviously, the target was never in my doctor's sight.
INHO, the increase in the number of meds being used for all kinds of conditions has made the treatment much harder since there are potentially so many combinations of meds that can be tried. That is where so much time was lost since every trial can take a few months. I totally gave up on continuing to test meds and told my doc that and then tried my own experiment and added a stim to Nardil and thought it did something.
We may try me just on some ADD meds in the future but I didn't want to risk unraveling since I am doing so well at my job right now. It would be quite risky to prove my theory that perhaps ADD was the basis of my depression, by quitting Nardil, at least for right now. That may be another phase in my treatment once I have gone for at leat a year without any relapse of my depression.
Hope this sheds some light on my story and believe me, this is the abbreviated version. My diary is 2 volumes and I only write when things are very bad.
Posted by clipper40 on November 25, 2008, at 4:23:13
In reply to My story and success with Nardil/Stimulant, posted by stargazer2 on November 22, 2008, at 16:12:48
Thanks so much for letting me know what worked for you - especially after you lost all of your initial efforts.
I'm at the place you were a while back - taking an active role in finding something to work for me. I haven't tried any MAOIs yet but they're always a possibility.
Anyway, I can't say enough how wonderful it is to read about success stories.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 25, 2008, at 15:01:57
In reply to My story and success with Nardil/Stimulant, posted by stargazer2 on November 22, 2008, at 16:12:48
Thanks for sharing your story! Glad you found something that works for you. I was diagnosed ADD years ago and put on Ritalin. Felt fine, got things done on a small amount. I,ve been wondering about that initial "normal/great" feeling I had when started Parnate 5 weeks ago? Have been researching to replicate that with maybe nortrityline (don't know if doc will prescribe) but maybe all I need is ritalin again on top of Parnate. What stim do you take? How much? How long since you started combo?
Thanks!
~Jade
Posted by stargazer2 on November 25, 2008, at 22:48:19
In reply to Re: My story and success with Nardil/Stimulant, posted by JadeKelly on November 25, 2008, at 15:01:57
Jade,
I only take from 2.5 to 5 mg of a generic amphetamine salt, which at one time was a substitute for Adderall, which I used to take with Celexa and wellbutrin. That is how I happened to have "leftovers" of that med. It was used as a substitute when my insurance wouldn't cover Adderall or something stupid like that. I once went up to 7.5 mg and had a hypertensive reaction, so I know that is my threshold. I have heard that ADDerall is much riskier than some of the other stims, but I know my limits now.
My doc is cool with most everything I suggest now. I think he is dumbfounded with how much better I am and doesn't even understand it. It is so much simplier than the solutions he was proposing. I think we got to the point where after I would fail a med he suggested, I felt I should get a chance to try something I thought might work.
I think the ADD component to my depression was never fully investigated or treated, so the reason for my success was going after the ADD piece of the puzzle, in addition to the depression, resulting in a better response. Plus it got a little ridiculous treating the depression with antipsychotics, etc. I think the pdocs of today go too far out in left field, treating with any available med, just because they exist and are touted to be so great, when in actuality, they always made me feel worse.
I wish I had found my voice sooner to call the shots. My doc may not have listened, but I think he is just grateful that something is working. He probably thinks he came up with this solution too. I don't even care anymore. I'm too busy living and making up for lost time now to be angry and dwell on the years I lost. Hopefully others can learn to not always listen and be good patients, but challenge and suggest other treatments to your doctor.
Good luck to you.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 26, 2008, at 9:09:46
In reply to My story and success with Nardil/Stims/JadeK, posted by stargazer2 on November 25, 2008, at 22:48:19
> Jade,
>
> I only take from 2.5 to 5 mg of a generic amphetamine salt, which at one time was a substitute for Adderall, which I used to take with Celexa and wellbutrin.Hi Stargazer, congrats on finding your solution!
That is how I happened to have "leftovers" of that med. It was used as a substitute when my insurance wouldn't cover Adderall or something stupid like that. I once went up to 7.5 mg and had a hypertensive reaction, so I know that is my threshold. I have heard that ADDerall is much riskier than some of the other stims, but I know my limits now.
The fact that you have "leftovers" means its unlikely that you would feel tempted to take more than you should. I think thats often the concern.
So just be careful, I think Adderall is supposed to be the WORST of the stims with MAOI's. Do you carry an antidote? Maybe get one? I have Nifedipine. Was it a full blown crisis? I hope not. No fun.
>
> My doc is cool with most everything I suggest now. I think he is dumbfounded with how much better I am and doesn't even understand it. It is so much simplier than the solutions he was proposing. I think we got to the point where after I would fail a med he suggested, I felt I should get a chance to try something I thought might work.Definately! I would venture to say that most people who get well think like you do. You trust others but eventually that gets old when you feel horrible.
>
> I think the ADD component to my depression was never fully investigated or treated, so the reason for my success was going after the ADD piece of the puzzle, in addition to the depression, resulting in a better response.Good for you!
Plus it got a little ridiculous treating the depression with antipsychotics, etc. I think the pdocs of today go too far out in left field, treating with any available med, just because they exist and are touted to be so great, when in actuality, they always made me feel worse.Good for you for saying enough is enough. Its great also that your Doc trusts you enough to go with your choice. Not too many would treat with MAOI and Adderall.
>
> I wish I had found my voice sooner to call the shots. My doc may not have listened, but I think he is just grateful that something is working.He probably thinks he came up with this solution too.
I laughed out loud when I read that.
I don't even care anymore. I'm too busy living and making up for lost time now to be angry and dwell on the years I lost. Hopefully others can learn to not always listen and be good patients, but challenge and suggest other treatments to your doctor.
Good plan. At least you didn't ignore your voice completely and suffer a couple more years. It took me a while to even begin to research solutions for my depression. Don't be hard on youself. When depression hits, its hard to even get your bearings. You're ahead of me!
>
> Good luck to you.Good luck to you also, keep me posted on your success!
~Jade
Posted by elanor roosevelt on November 26, 2008, at 20:53:35
In reply to Re: My story and success with Nardil/Stims/JadeK » stargazer2, posted by JadeKelly on November 26, 2008, at 9:09:46
i would stay with the nardil if it is working well
i find that adderall keeps me a half-step ahead of deep depression
it's always good to hear a success story
This is the end of the thread.
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