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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by theo on September 8, 2008, at 19:59:55
I've noticed since I haven't been on any anticonvulsant in a while that I HAVE NOT had a sore throat or cold. I've always been curious if anticonvulsants can lower your immune system. It seems like I'm constantly battling sore throat, upper respiratory sickness while on them. Any truth to this or just coincidence?
Posted by Phillipa on September 8, 2008, at 20:17:24
In reply to Anticonvulsant Observation, Input Appreciated, posted by theo on September 8, 2008, at 19:59:55
Now that's interesting will google and see if anything comes up. Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on September 10, 2008, at 3:35:27
In reply to Anticonvulsant Observation, Input Appreciated, posted by theo on September 8, 2008, at 19:59:55
> I've noticed since I haven't been on any anticonvulsant in a while that I HAVE NOT had a sore throat or cold. I've always been curious if anticonvulsants can lower your immune system. It seems like I'm constantly battling sore throat, upper respiratory sickness while on them. Any truth to this or just coincidence?
Some psychotropics can lower your immune response perhaps, but some people are just more susceptible to URI conditions. Do you have any family or personal history of asthma or sinus tract disorders? Do you get enough sleep? The average person has about 5 URI infections in a year, and some are just carriers, some are unnoticed.One would have to know the specific medication to see if there is any significance between medication and placebo for URI (upper respiratory infections.)
It could also be a passing trend and unrelated -- I used to have not-needed to operate but annoying tonsil and various symptoms for a year, a bit younger. Some of these things dissapear as one grows older, it depends, as for example bacterial pneumonia is more serious in teens, the flu is more serious, but can also be more serious in those 60-70+.
It's not a bad idea to have a flu shot (assuming you're not allergic to eggs) when on medications, every year since a heavy multi-medication regime could conceivably slightly lower one's response just because of all the chemicals in the system and the "we don't know" factor.-- best wishes
Jay
Posted by Phillipa on September 10, 2008, at 19:28:46
In reply to Re: Anticonvulsant Observation, Input Appreciated » theo, posted by yxibow on September 10, 2008, at 3:35:27
Sorry I'm hyjacking Jay should I get one with the autoimmune disease or does that mean I fight off diseases better cause it attacks own body as foreign? Love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on September 11, 2008, at 1:20:23
In reply to Re: Anticonvulsant Observation, Input Appreciated » yxibow, posted by Phillipa on September 10, 2008, at 19:28:46
> Sorry I'm hyjacking Jay should I get one with the autoimmune disease or does that mean I fight off diseases better cause it attacks own body as foreign? Love Phillipa
That's a sticky wicket that I can't really answer -- I don't know a lot about endocrinology although I'm sure that I have some slight genetic tendencies, e.g., why is my "normal" temperature about 97.5?
I believe it is a question that is on the sheet that pharmacists can now give you a flu shot for about $25-$50 -- but I don't remember, it may not be.
I would say you would have to defer/call your doctor/GP about it if you are really worried, but at your age (pardon me), it is normally a good idea to have a flu shot.
I think the most worry is those who are immunocompromised fairly badly, the most example would be HIV/AIDS. Some shots are needed (pneumonia), but its a question of whether the flu shot can one in a thousand or something do something bad -- it is killed or partial killed, unlike Flumist, which is more live, I believe and probably shouldn't be used by an HIV patient.
Both are offered in pharmacies now. I believe that the Flumist is not egg based so is another solution, it is probably about 80% effective instead of 90% effective for a shot, but no shot is a guarantee.
That probably leaves you with more questions than answers but that's the best I can say
-- best wishesJay
Posted by Phillipa on September 11, 2008, at 19:07:40
In reply to Re: Flu shots » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on September 11, 2008, at 1:20:23
Jay know how through with your health I think that now normal body temp can be as low as that. Me mine is low due to the thyroid issue. But even years before that it ran low. Some people's do. Do a google search for normal body temp. Love Jan
Posted by yxibow on September 11, 2008, at 19:38:18
In reply to Re: Flu shots » yxibow, posted by Phillipa on September 11, 2008, at 19:07:40
> Jay know how through with your health I think that now normal body temp can be as low as that. Me mine is low due to the thyroid issue. But even years before that it ran low. Some people's do. Do a google search for normal body temp. Love Jan
There is no such thing as "98.6", its a myth or at best a very crude approximate. Some people are, some are not.
97.5 is generally the low temperature in the morning and by night it can be 99.
But some people run low and some run high. For me 99.5 is actually a fever though febrile isn't considered until above 100 by most practitioners.
-- Jay
Posted by Phillipa on September 11, 2008, at 20:03:24
In reply to Re Body temp » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on September 11, 2008, at 19:38:18
Same with me. So I think I missed your point about the temp you have of 97.5? Love Jan
Posted by yxibow on September 12, 2008, at 2:42:16
In reply to Re: Re Body temp » yxibow, posted by Phillipa on September 11, 2008, at 20:03:24
> Same with me. So I think I missed your point about the temp you have of 97.5? Love Jan
It may be intertwined with psychiatric things, it may really just be the way I am which is more likely I think, but my general baseline temperature runs lower most of the time of the day I think, I could be wrong, so give or take 97.5/98. I think the same is with my father, give or take.
-- Jay
Posted by Phillipa on September 12, 2008, at 19:20:20
In reply to Re: Re Body temp » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on September 12, 2008, at 2:42:16
Jay so it's normal. Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on September 13, 2008, at 2:14:50
In reply to Re: Re Body temp » yxibow, posted by Phillipa on September 12, 2008, at 19:20:20
> Jay so it's normal. Phillipa
Yes. I just feel it more at 100, fatigued. It could be somatoform. It could be real. And even things somatoform are very real experiences.
Posted by Fletcher on September 17, 2008, at 19:32:16
In reply to Re: Flu shots » Phillipa, posted by yxibow on September 11, 2008, at 1:20:23
I went through a whole rigmarole about normal body temperature several years ago and did a lot of research. There is a POWERFUL correlation between "low average" body temperature and "not feeling well". There's a doctor that put forward a controversial theory (wilsonssyndrome.com) that is cr*pp*d on by allopathic endocrinologists, but probably does address the root issue for many people.
The key is to measure your body temperature three times a day, with the first time being three hours after you get out of bed. Average the three readings and that's your average to look at.
Also, the body temperature is meant to be used as an "indicator of metabolism"-- so trying approaches like wrapping yourself in blankets or sitting in a hot room aren't addressing the root cause anymore than putting a thermometer in a cup of warm water means the room is getting warmer.
There's a wealth of knowledge out there on this subject, but very little of it solidly peer-reviewed at this point. Check drrind.com, also.
I know first-hand, however, that taking thyroid medication (T3, not T4) did both raise my body temperature AND make me feel better than I had ever felt in my life to that point. Unfortunately, it stopped working after a few weeks (just like almost every medication I've ever been on that is supposed to affect mood).
However, 98.6 "really is" the normal body temperature (at least, the normal average) and this is pretty much true across all populations. Lower temperatures are statistically normal, but then you get into that whole "optimal" thing.
Posted by Phillipa on September 17, 2008, at 20:39:48
In reply to 'Normal' Body Temp » yxibow, posted by Fletcher on September 17, 2008, at 19:32:16
Fletcher this is what I found. Phillipa
American Thyroid Association Statement on "Wilson's Syndrome"Updated May 24, 2005
The American Thyroid Association (ATA) has developed the following response to requests from patients and physicians for information about "Wilson's syndrome". The ATA Public Health Committee and Council have reviewed the material presented on the "Wilson's syndrome" website, considered relevant studies from the medical literature, and offer the following advice.
Summary
"Wilson's syndrome" refers to the presence of common and nonspecific symptoms, relatively low body temperature, and normal levels of thyroid hormones in blood. Dr. E. Denis Wilson, who named the syndrome after himself, contends that it represents a form of thyroid hormone deficiency responsive to treatment with a special preparation of triiodothyronine (T3).
The ATA's thorough review of the biomedical literature has found no scientific evidence supporting the existence of "Wilson's syndrome." The ATA also has specific concerns about the following issues.
First, the proposed basis for this syndrome is inconsistent with well-known and widely-accepted facts about thyroid hormone production, metabolism, and action. T3 is one of the two natural thyroid hormones. Normally, it is mainly produced in target tissues outside of the thyroid gland from metabolism of thyroxine (T4). This production of T3 from T4 occurs in a highly regulated manner. This is one reason that T3 is not currently recommended for thyroid hormone treatment in most patients with thyroid hormone deficiency. T4 therapy allows T3 to be produced, as it is naturally, by the regulated metabolism of the administered T4 medication to T3.
Second, the diagnostic criteria for "Wilson's syndrome"--nonspecific symptoms and body temperature measurement--are imprecise.
Third, there is no scientific evidence that T3 therapy is better than a placebo would be for management of nonspecific symptoms, such as those that have been described as part of "Wilson's syndrome," in individuals with and normal thyroid hormone concentrations.
Fourth, T3 therapy results in wide fluctuations in T3 concentrations in blood and body tissues. This produces symptoms and cardiovascular complications in some patients, and is potentially dangerous.
Complete Review
The "Wilson's syndrome" website lists 37 symptoms as well as "others" that can occur as part of the condition. All of these symptoms do cause suffering, distress, and functional disability in millions of people. Some of these symptoms can, in fact, be due to true hypothyroidism. In hypothyroid patients, they are typically responsive to thyroid hormone therapy. Other problems, such as asthma, are not associated with thyroid hormone deficiency. Many of these symptoms are present from time to time in virtually everyone. In addition to hypothyroidism, they may be due to a variety of illnesses or life circumstances. In other words, they are nonspecific.
The "Wilson's syndrome" website states that Dr. Wilson named this concept after himself "because it had not been previously described." In fact, for more than a century, the same set of symptoms has been given different names and attributed to a variety of causes by others, including the syndromes of neurasthenia, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, multiple chemical sensitivity, chronic Ebstein Barr disease, and chronic candidiasis.
The frequency of complaints attributed to "Wilson's syndrome" has been recently reviewed (Barsky AJ, Borus JF. Functional somatic syndromes. Ann Intern Med 1999;130:910-21) At any time, more than 20% of adults report significant fatigue and 30% have current musculoskeletal symptoms. Furthermore, the typical adult has one of the symptoms every 4 to 6 days, and more than 80% of the general population has one of these symptoms during any 2 to 4 week period.
The advocates of "Wilson's syndrome" view the cause, diagnostic evaluation, and treatment of these symptoms very narrowly. Their viewpoint does not acknowledge that when these symptoms are persistent, they may be due to a number of different subacute and chronic medical conditions, psychological or social stress, or mood disorders, including depression and anxiety. Some of these symptoms may also simply be a part of life. "Wilson's syndrome" attributes them all to a biochemical theory, which is unsupported by laboratory or clinical research. It does not consider the impact of other potential illnesses and psychosocial factors on how we feel. In doing so, attributing one or more of these symptoms to "Wilson's syndrome" may delay recognition of treatable medical illnesses and potentially addressable life stresses.
The ATA has the following specific concerns about "Wilson's syndrome" and its recommended treatment.
The diagnosis of "Wilson's syndrome" is based on an incorrect definition of normal body temperature: that it is 98.6ºF. (Mackowiak, et al. JAMA 1992;268:1578-1580) measured oral temperature in 148 healthy persons. Average temperature varied throughout the day. At 8 AM, the average temperature was 97.6ºF with more than 50% of all the measurements less than 98.6ºF, and many less than 98.0ºF. This study concluded that "thirty-seven degrees centigrade (98.6ºF) should be abandoned as a concept relevant to clinical thermometry."
The prescription of T3 for "Wilson's syndrome" is inconsistent with normal physiology and represents a potential hazard. There is no question that T3 is an active, effective thyroid hormone. However, in most vital organs, much of the T3 is produced by removal of an iodine atom from T4 delivered by the blood to sites of thyroid hormone action. The extent of T4-to-T3 conversion varies from one organ to the other, but in some organs, like the brain and pituitary, this process provides most of the T3. Treatment with T3 produces an unnaturally large amount of T3 in some organs. This may be inappropriate, especially in times of illness or nutritional deficiency. Long-term T3 treatment may cause harm. Excessive T3 treatment can affect the heart and skeleton. These effects can be serious and even life-threatening.
The sole clinical evidence supporting T3 therapy offered by the "Wilson's syndrome" website is in the form of testimonials from people who feel better after taking T3. Evidence of this kind, based on anecdotal reports of an unblinded intervention is potentially erroneous. Such reports fail to take into account two well established facts. First, many people who suffer these symptoms, even for months, get better without any treatment. Second, as many as one-third of people with nonspecific symptoms have a so-called placebo response, i.e., they get better when they are given any treatment, even an inactive capsule or sugar pill. The appropriate way to assess a new treatment is to perform a clinical trial in which patients are randomly assigned to receive either the test drug or placebo. Furthermore, the response to treatment should be assessed in a double blind manner, keeping track of what gets better, what does not change, and what gets worse, with neither the patient nor the doctor knowing which treatment the patient is taking. The ATA has been unable to find any such studies of any treatment, including T3, for "Wilson's syndrome." The Wilson syndrome website reports only success stories. Responsible medical research into a new treatment keeps track of, and reports, not only successes, but also success rates, and how often there are inconclusive responses, failures, and side effects.
The term Wilsons syndrome should not be confused with Wilsons Disease. Wilsons Disease is a well established and carefully studied rare metabolic disorder caused by excess accumulation of copper in the body.
ConclusionThe American Thyroid Association has found no scientific evidence supporting the existence of "Wilson's syndrome." The theory proposed to explain this condition is at odds with established facts about thyroid hormone. Diagnostic criteria for "Wilson's syndrome" are imprecise and could lead to misdiagnosis of many other conditions. The T3 therapy advocated for "Wilson's syndrome" has never been evaluated objectively in a properly designed scientific study. Furthermore, administration of T3 can produce abnormally high concentrations of T3 in the blood, subjecting patients to new symptoms and potentially harmful effects on the heart and bones.
The ATA supports efforts to learn more about the causes of somatic symptoms that affect many individuals, to test rigorously the idea that some as yet unidentified abnormality in thyroid hormone action might account for even a small subset of these symptoms, and to pursue properly designed clinical trials to assess the effectiveness of lifestyle, dietary, and pharmacological treatments for these common ailments. However, unsupported claims, such as those made for "Wilson's syndrome," do nothing to further these aims.
© 2006 American Thyroid Association. All rights reserved.
Posted by Fletcher on September 18, 2008, at 0:30:33
In reply to Re: 'Normal' Body Temp » Fletcher, posted by Phillipa on September 17, 2008, at 20:39:48
Yes, I've seen all this stuff before in doing my research. When I sought assessment of my thyroid, I went first to an allopathic endocrinologist, who happily told me I was "normal" (based on the word NORMAL printed next to the numbers that came back from the lab).
I took this same test report to my wholistic practitioner (a gifted MD) recognized that the combination of some of my low-normal numbers and my slightly above-normal numbers and he painted the picture: my elevated TSH indicated that my pituitary was trying to get more out of my thyroid and that my thyroid was not responding. That gave me a little more indication of what was going on with me than "you're fine" did.
My doctor held, largely, the same view that the ATA does of Wilson's approach to treating the disease (that it's narrowly focused)-- and he strongly advocated supporting and treating the adrenals before doing anything for the thyroid. However, I do argue against the premise that that "otherwise healthy" individuals show a variety of temperatures throughout the day as an argument against 98.6 being a "normal" body temperature. Everyone's temperature does fluctuate, but you will find that, averaging it out (per the method I described above), does provide a pretty remarkably stable indicator.
You're right to address this, though-- I think Wilson's information is interesting to read, but in the end, he's kind of a nut (as far as his methods go).
I also understand how a vague listing of symptoms may seem like a non-indicator, although the thyroid ~does~ affect every single cell in the body-- and depending upon the individual, it can be different systems that "give in" to the lower energy.
Supposedly, the "other side" of the "complaints" is that many of the complaints were from other doctors treating patients with chronic conditions and his "stealing" those patients and "curing" them.
Two points that they don't address in the ATA "official" brief. One is that, even in Wilson's course, extended T3 therapy isn't recommended. The exact therapy is to administer the T3 until the body reaches and can maintain a 98.6 average temperature, then the T3 is discontinued.
The other point is that they say the T4 turns into T3 in other tissues in the body-- which is true-- but Wilson's premise is that T4 can also be turned into something called "Reverse T3" which supposedly does nothing, which is the argument against using T4 therapy and his argument for using T3.
Anyway, it's a complex issue, obviously. I also don't have that much faith in any of those A*A associations-- like the ADA that says "Mercury is fine!" As always, do your own research, your mileage may vary, don't believe any one thing you read. :)
Posted by yxibow on September 18, 2008, at 2:27:25
In reply to 'Normal' Body Temp » yxibow, posted by Fletcher on September 17, 2008, at 19:32:16
> The key is to measure your body temperature three times a day, with the first time being three hours after you get out of bed. Average the three readings and that's your average to look at.
Not quite exactly, but somewhat close, at least according to one analysis which I will point out below
> Also, the body temperature is meant to be used as an "indicator of metabolism"-- so trying approaches like wrapping yourself in blankets or sitting in a hot room aren't addressing the root cause anymore than putting a thermometer in a cup of warm water means the room is getting warmer.
>
> There's a wealth of knowledge out there on this subject, but very little of it solidly peer-reviewed at this point. Check drrind.com, also.Well -- I'm not going to comment much on drrind.com, there is no HON code or peer review on that site, it seems "holistic". If one wants to believe in it, that is their prerogative
> However, 98.6 "really is" the normal body temperature (at least, the normal average) and this is pretty much true across all populations.
Lower temperatures are statistically normal, but then you get into that whole "optimal" thing.
Yes -- the standard deviation.
I have to bring up my memory of statistics, its been a while since higher calculus, but there are different parts of averages, the arithmetic mean, median and the mode, as well as the standard deviation, when one looks at bell curves and other statistical analysis.
But check out this Harvard peer-reviewed discussion of temperature. I'm not saying its the end all to everything but he is a Board Certified (ABMS.org) rheumatologist who has a seen a considerable amount of practice.-- tidings
Jay
Posted by bimini on September 25, 2008, at 20:02:03
In reply to Re: 'Normal' Body Temp » Fletcher, posted by yxibow on September 18, 2008, at 2:27:25
Thank you so much for all this info. My average temp for the past 6 years has been around 96, I don't adjust to climate change, air condition ... I used to have normal temp ~98.
My thyroid tests have been fine, so I was told I was FINE. Well I don't FEEL fine. At times my temp plunges to 94, that feels crappy. At 93 I am too dizzy and confused to speak and listen. 92 feels like the flu, can't move much and usually fall asleep. The lowest I read was 91.2. My doc said that a virus could cause low temp. Or a broken thermometer LOL.
Mine plunges a lot, don't have a permanent virus. I wondered what the lowest temp can be before it does damage. From what read there is no cause to worry until it gets more to mid 80s range. What do you think? It feels to me like all my fluids turn to thick slush. OR like the atmosphere gets thicker and harder to move through.
bimini
Posted by Phillipa on September 25, 2008, at 20:25:06
In reply to Re: 'Normal' Body Temp » yxibow, posted by bimini on September 25, 2008, at 20:02:03
Bimini I think that something is wrong and you really need to get to the bottom of it as that is not at all normal did they do full thyroid panels? Check for autoimmune antiboidies? Love Phillipa who does care.
Posted by bimini on September 27, 2008, at 11:36:39
In reply to Re: 'Normal' Body Temp » bimini, posted by Phillipa on September 25, 2008, at 20:25:06
You are a sweetie. Yes I have gone the full tune-up circle. Adrenal malfunction started with brain injury. Besides MVP autonomic dysfunction, I am told to be healthy and look it too. In 2 weeks I am going to have exploratory surgery to rule out cancer. I am visualing a good outcome. I haven't found information about general anesthesia and extreme low body temp. And what the Provigil effect is.
I checked out the Dr Rind site, that was very informative. Another thing, thinking 'warm' helps somewhat. Sunset, smiles, fuzzy blanket, steaming tea and chicken soup ... just thinking about pleasure. Hmmm, palmtrees, ocean ....
Staying away from 'cold' people, stressful situations (yeah right, how can one do that?) watching TV might fall in that category too. And the news :)love, bimini
Posted by Phillipa on September 27, 2008, at 19:31:43
In reply to Re: 'Normal' Body Temp » Phillipa, posted by bimini on September 27, 2008, at 11:36:39
Oh Bimini what is wrong what caused a brain injury and cancer? I know you don't need to answer those questions but concerned about you. Love Phillipa
Posted by bimini on September 28, 2008, at 8:47:37
In reply to Re: 'Normal' Body Temp » bimini, posted by Phillipa on September 27, 2008, at 19:31:43
I was a passenger in a car when hit by a Mack truck. The driver is ok. Then came more trauma from lawsuit, but I would fight it the same all over again. Life lessons taught me a different outlook: I'm a survivor, learned new skills, how to cope, what is important and what isn't.
So my plan is NOT to have cancer. To rule that out is what I visualize.
There is a wealth of information you are sharing here, I would not have looked to find this site, wouldn't have had so many unanswered questions. In a sense the world got bigger for me. And that isn't all bad.love, bimini
Posted by Phillipa on September 28, 2008, at 19:36:25
In reply to Re: 'Normal' Body Temp » Phillipa, posted by bimini on September 28, 2008, at 8:47:37
Bimini wow you've been through a lot and love your positive thinking. Love Phillipa
Posted by jjjaspar on October 4, 2008, at 17:13:02
In reply to Re: 'Normal' Body Temp » bimini, posted by Phillipa on September 28, 2008, at 19:36:25
A family member (child) tended to have low body temp, which fluctuated. It often was 96.8 and she tended to get both hypothermic and hyperthermic on field trips when other kids were fine. Sometimes they had to seek medical intervention for her.
Later she was found to have a dysfunction in her hypothalamic-pituitary axis. She is now on multiple hormones and feels MUCH better.
I also have low body temp, and when I feel really bad, like I have a fever I take my temp and it is LOWER than my normal. I never could explain it, but I have a sibling the same way.
After the child was diagnosed, I could not help but wonder if my brother and I maybe have a slight version of the same problem.
In any case, I do believe that the low body temp may be correlated with people not feeling well and having low hjormones like low thyroid , or FUNCTIONALLY low thyroid. It can be in the normal range but transport across the blood-brain barrier might be low -- a common problem found in people with schizophrenia. Or conversion from T4 to T3 might be low, or they may have sub-clinical hypothyroidism.
This is the end of the thread.
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