![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 166 to 190 of 262. Go back in thread:
Posted by buddhi on July 28, 2005, at 15:47:18
In reply to Opioids and anxiety...?, posted by Ame Sans Vie on January 27, 2003, at 4:14:08
> Well, in the past I've been prescribed Hycodan (Canadian formulation), propoxyphene HCl, codeine, and hydromorphone. The Hycodan (at a dose of 15mg q8hr) worked especially well-- it both relieved the anxiety, yet didn't have me throwing up all day. I'm interested in trying buprenorphine, and it shouldn't be difficult to obtain it (or hydrocodone) seeing as my pdoc already has me on Klonopin, Valium, Ativan, Xanax, and just a few days ago called in prescriptions for BuSpar and Marinol (which works incredibly well, I might add... I'd rather not be taking it though, on the basis of drug testing for when I finally get out to look for a job. I have the feeling that most employers would frown upon finding THC in your system, even if it were backed up by a Rx). Another consideration is Stadol (butorphanol) nasal spray-- anyone have any experience at all with this stuff? I've used it recreationally years ago, but that was before my disorder(s?) hit full force. TIA!
>
> --Michaelwondering how much marinol you took or are taking???? Thanks so much buddhi!!! you can write me back on this board or amy@pause.com
Posted by pseudoname on October 31, 2005, at 12:18:38
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine-- bee happy » androog, posted by mbutka on April 8, 2004, at 7:10:32
mbutka said:
> Briefly, the main problem with buprenorphine is it is not approved for treatment of depression, and cannot be used off-label. ... any doctor who prescribes it for anything other than addiction risks losing their license
Perhaps this is true in some other country, but it is NOT the case in the U.S. The following statement is from the U.S. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration at http://buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/faq.html#21
<quote>
21. Can Subutex® or Suboxone® be prescribed for conditions other than opioid addiction, e.g., pain control?Subutex® and Suboxone® have received FDA approval only for the treatment of opioid addiction. However, once approved, a drug product may be prescribed by a licensed physician for any use that, based on the physician’s professional opinion, is deemed to be appropriate. Neither the FDA nor the Federal government regulates the practice of medicine. Any approved product may be used by a licensed practitioner for uses other than those stated in the product label. Off-label use is not illegal, but it means that the data to support that use has not been independently reviewed by the FDA. Information on FDA policy regarding off-label use of pharmaceuticals is available on the FDA Web site, http://www.fda.gov/cder/cancer/tour.htm, or http://www.fda.gov/cder/present/diamontreal/regappr/index.htm
<unquote>I just don't want anyone to get discouraged (as I almost was) if they saw mbutka's post in the archive. The only restriction mentioned in those FDA links is that pharma manufacturers cannot actively promote off-label uses.
Posted by bigcat on November 4, 2005, at 0:45:45
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine-- bee happy, posted by bee happy on January 27, 2003, at 15:19:02
I've read some very encouraging case reports recently regarding treatment-resistant patients with severe depression finding relief with Buprenorphine. My depression, depsair, and failed med trials have brought me to the point where I'll try anything. My concern is less for my own well-being as for the potential risk my doctor would be taking in prescribing this medication for me. He has never been investigated or challenged before, but he (from proven clinical experience) has written scripts for meds like Dexedrine or Desoxyn, that could, while wholly viable and used effectively for decades, be judged "radical" or too readily abused. I have no history of substance abuse (legal or illegal) whatsoever.
I realize that the FDA and other agencies can investigate my pdoc and potentially prosecute his compassionate soul, and have his/her liscence revoked or even worse. My pdoc has become my close (only) friend, and is adamantly committed to pusuing new, untraditional treatment options for me. This pdoc is aggressive and open-minded, but I would'nt dare bring up the Buprenorphine idea if writing the script could even remotely put him at any legal or professional risk. It would forever ruin what little life I have left in me. Sooo... as I have no history of opiate or other drug abuse or addiction, could my pdoc safely prescribe this medication for me, without fear of unjust, but potentially devastating, repurcussions?
For the treatmnet of pain, I've received codeine, valium, and percocets in the past which have done little to help the physical pain, or provide any of the mental calming or antidepressant effect that other kids rave about. Would this lead you to believe that Buprenorphine wouldn't have much of an effect on me as an antidepressant? How about addiction, tolerance, long-term use, and the (I would imagine) hellish withdrawal process if I eventually have to come off it or can't get another pdoc to prescribe it for me? (Am I flirting with the devil, and could I be getting in way over my head? I hope I'm wrong, but isn't Bupe a close relative of heroin?) I'd appreciate any information or advice you could offer.
Still Fighting,
-matt-
Posted by pseudoname on November 4, 2005, at 12:24:41
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine Concerns, posted by bigcat on November 4, 2005, at 0:45:45
> could my pdoc safely prescribe this medication for me, without fear of unjust, but potentially devastating, repurcussions?
Matt, see my post in the other thread. I'm just finding this stuff out, and that post is the best answer I can give today: ("ANYONE can Rx bupe") http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20051031/msgs/575345.html
> I would'nt dare bring up the Buprenorphine idea if writing the script could even remotely put him at any legal or professional risk.
I know the feeling, but your doc is a grown-up. As a doctor, he is accustomed to taking risks. In fact, he cannot help you unless you allow him to take at least some risk. Besides, maybe you can blaze a trail that helps him treat other patients.
> Am I flirting with the devil, and could I be getting in way over my head?
Bupe is not a close relative of heroin. Third cousins twice removed. Bupe may or may not work for you, but it seems clear that it doesn't put people in over their heads. It sounds like you trust your doc's clinical judgment. Go ahead and talk to him about it.
Please post back what he says & what you try.
Posted by ed_uk on November 5, 2005, at 10:13:58
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine Concerns, posted by bigcat on November 4, 2005, at 0:45:45
Hi Matt
>My concern is less for my own well-being as for the potential risk my doctor would be taking in prescribing this medication for me.
Show this to your doc. He will come to his own decision on whether or not he wants you to try buprenorphine.
J Clin Psychopharmacol. 1995 Feb;15(1):49-57.
Buprenorphine treatment of refractory depression.
Bodkin JA, Zornberg GL, Lukas SE, Cole JO.
McLean Hospital, Consolidated Department of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School, Belmont, MA 02178, USA.
Opiates were used to treat major depression until the mid-1950s. The advent of opioids with mixed agonist-antagonist or partial agonist activity, with reduced dependence and abuse liabilities, has made possible the reevaluation of opioids for this indication. This is of potential importance for the population of depressed patients who are unresponsive to or intolerant of conventional antidepressant agents. Ten subjects with treatment-refractory, unipolar, nonpsychotic, major depression were treated with the opioid partial agonist buprenorphine in an open-label study. Three subjects were unable to tolerate more than two doses because of side effects including malaise, nausea, and dysphoria. The remaining seven completed 4 to 6 weeks of treatment and as a group showed clinically striking improvement in both subjective and objective measures of depression. Much of this improvement was observed by the end of 1 week of treatment and persisted throughout the trial. Four subjects achieved complete remission of symptoms by the end of the trial (Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression scores < or = 6), two were moderately improved, and one deteriorated. These findings suggest a possible role for buprenorphine in treating refractory depression.
>I hope I'm wrong, but isn't Bupe a close relative of heroin?
Heroin and buprenorphine are both opioid analgesics but their pharmacological properties differ somewhat. Heroin is closely related to codeine and morphine.
>I've received codeine, valium, and percocets in the past which have done little to help the physical pain, or provide any of the mental calming or antidepressant effect that other kids rave about. Would this lead you to believe that Buprenorphine wouldn't have much of an effect on me as an antidepressant?
Diazepam (Valium) is a benzodiazepine, it's not related to buprenorphine in any way. Codeine and oxycodone (present in Percocet) are opioids, like buprenorphine, but buprenorphine's psychological effects are different (variably so). Some people find buprenorphine to be subjectively very similar to other opioids (eg. codeine) whereas others find it to be very different.
Kind regards
Ed
Posted by pseudoname on November 5, 2005, at 20:06:45
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine Concerns, posted by bigcat on November 4, 2005, at 0:45:45
> I would'nt dare bring up the Buprenorphine idea if writing the script could even remotely put him at any legal or professional risk
It's perfectly legal for docs to write bupe scripts for depression, and I don't think we even have to worry about overzealous prosecution.
All of the problems I could find by Googling – including what seemed like horrific injustices – involved Schedule II drugs (like OxyContin), which are more "dangerous" and restricted than buprenorphines Suboxone (Sch III) or Buprenex (Sch V). They also involved HUGE amounts and many patients, even when seemingly justified.
I found these statements from the DEA (I assume you're in the U.S.). They're in "Prescription Pain Medications: Frequently Asked Questions and Answers for Health Care Professionals and Law Enforcement Personnel" (2004) – which DEA has since withdrawn for errors in other sections:
Word FAQ: http://headaches.allinfoabout.com/articles/PRESCRIPTION%20PAIN%20MEDICATIONS.doc
PDF FAQ: http://headaches.allinfoabout.com/articles/pain_meds_faqs.pdfThe DEA says, "The DEA focuses its limited manpower and resources on the most flagrant violators." –pg 42
DEA explicitly says that even *methadone* (let alone bupe) can be prescribed by ANY physician with a Schedule II registration. "An additional separate DEA registration is needed only when dispensing methadone for outpatient maintenance or detoxification, not when prescribing it for pain." –pg 41
In 2003 the DEA sanctioned 584 doctors, dentists, veterinarians, and nurses. Of those, 434 WERE NO LONGER LICENSED to practice when they were writing the scripts. Most sanctions were just the loss of registration (and remember, most of the docs were already out of business). –pg 42
The DEA gives these as examples of questions an investigator might ask a physician about an opioid prescription. (Substitute "depression" for "pain".)
• How can you tell this patient has a chronic pain problem?
• Is there justification for the drugs that have been prescribed?
• Are the prescribed amounts appropriate?
• If a patient is displaying drug-seeking behaviors, is this a sign of undertreated pain, addiction, or involvement in diversion? –pg 46<quote>
Characteristics of a practitioner or pharmacy that warrant further inquiry that could lead to an investigation include:
• A large proportion of prescriptions being paid for in cash.
• Large distances between the doctor, patients, and pharmacy, particularly if a sizable proportion of a doctor’s prescriptions are being filled at a pharmacy not conveniently located to either the doctor or the patients.
• Drugs and doses being prescribed are not individualized.
• One physician writing multiple prescriptions for numerous patients that are filled consecutively in one pharmacy, indicating that either one person is presenting multiple prescriptions, or several people are filling similar prescriptions at the same time.
• A high frequency of prescriptions to replace lost prescriptions or medications.
• Frequent premature renewal or refilling of prescriptions.
• Frequent prescribing of unusual combinations of drugs, such as stimulants and depressants.
<unquote> –pg 46Matt, I hope this helps. It reassured me. I'm going to print out the FAQ for my pdoc. The biggest point is that it's completely LEGAL for your doc to give you a bupe script for depression. It won't even get on the DEA's radar.
Posted by bigcat on November 6, 2005, at 22:05:39
In reply to DEA prosecution guidelines » bigcat, posted by pseudoname on November 5, 2005, at 20:06:45
Thanks for the reassuring info psuedo! That took a great deal of the weight off, and it looks like a green light ahead. Is it you're belief, or have you read, that administering Buprenorphine in cases of severe treatment- resistant depressions have often proven sucessful in creating a ROBUST AND LASTING REMISSION for depressive cases highlighted by the following list of personal symptoms (hey, what the heck!):
cognitive impairment/retardation [never alert, poor memory, inablity to synthesize ideas or verbalize thoughts], inablity to focus or socialize, severe anxiety, inablity to express thoughts or speak clearly, fluidly, and spontaneously, comprehensive lack of energy, interest, or patience in anything whatsoever, inablity to experience love or enjoyment, obssesive worrying, self-loathing, and a paralyzing self-absorbtion and isolation.I realize I'm being neurotic (or extremely cautious at least), but I don't want to feel "drugged," or have a kind of body high or unnatural lift. "Comfortably numb" is not what I'm seeking (not to suggest that this is what others who have boldly taken this route are after, as I'm entirely convinced that all anyone truly wants is for the depression to receed). I guess you'll never know unless you try, I'm just a bit concerned that I'll "like it", rather than simply find it an efficacious drug to treat this illness.
I have never abused drugs legal or illegal, and I recognize that my concerns may sound like just the kind of crap and propaganda that holds viable treatments back because of unfounded stigmatization, but I would just like some reassurance that the Bupe isn't going to put me at risk for developing some type of addiction problem, or render me powerless to come off it, or live without it because of insurmountable withdrawal symptoms. I hope my concerns don't incite anger or frustration at what could be seen as my "brainwashing" from unsubstantiated and erroneous parallels that non-physicians create to incite mass hysteria and unjust regulation policies. I hope anyone reading this can appreciate my concerns, and while there may be no guarantees, I do feel many friends posting on this board are somehow "in the know" and UNDERSTAND OR HAVE FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE. While I now feel comfortable in speaking with my pdoc about the Bupe and the unlikelihood that a script could stir up any problems, I'm still kinda' scared sh*tless, as I have the feeling that this is powerful stuff and I shouldn't jump in without undertsanding the inherent, or potential risks. Thank you one and all.
-matt-
Posted by pseudoname on November 8, 2005, at 17:33:06
In reply to Re: DEA prosecution guidelines/GENERAL CONCERNS!!! » pseudoname, posted by bigcat on November 6, 2005, at 22:05:39
Matt,
I still don't have any personal experience with it, so I can't yet answer "first-hand". Check around in the Babble archive. This was posted in 2001 by Elizabeth (whom Declan called the "psychopharmacological goddess"):
<quote>
Buprenorphine really does not cause a high. There is a pretty low ceiling on its effect. ... So it's not much of a drug of abuse. I've been taking buprenorphine (as an antidepressant) for a year or so. ... I continue to be impressed by its efficacy, especially after all the treatments that have failed. I haven't become tolerant to the antidepressant effects (although most of the side effects have subsided with time). The physical dependence seems to be mild: missing a dose of Nardil (when I was taking it, that is) was much more unpleasant than missing a dose of buprenorphine is. I don't experience "cravings," nor do I feel tempted to increase the dose. Most people who take full-agonist opioids for pain [which are much "stonger" than buprenorphine] do not become addicted to them...
<unquote>
–http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20011025/msgs/82287.htmlIt may or may not work for you, but it's not exactly likely to turn you into a drug fiend.
Please post back what your doctor says. Thanks.
Posted by pseudoname on November 10, 2005, at 12:03:45
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine Concerns, posted by bigcat on November 4, 2005, at 0:45:45
> I would'nt dare bring up the Buprenorphine idea if writing the script could even remotely put him at any legal or professional risk.
I've come across this stuff in the last few days:
Eliot Cole, MD. "Prescribing opioids, relieving patient suffering and staying out of personal trouble with regulators." The Pain Practitioner, Fall 2002, 12(3): 5-8. http://www.aapainmanage.org/literature/PainPrac/V12N3_Cole_PrescribingOpioids.pdf
<quote>
WHAT CAN GET YOU INTO TROUBLE?
During the past few years, I have found several common practices that have gotten physicians into trouble regarding opioid prescribing:
1. Failure to evaluate patients (i.e. no history or physical examination)
2. Failure to make any diagnosis prior to the initiation of treatment
3. Failure to obtain outside medical records or to talk with previous practitioners (any verification at all)
4. Failure to establish goals for treatment (i.e. reduction in pain, improvement in function)
5. Failure to suspect misbehavior or substance abuse (i.e. no screen for addictive potential and no monitoring through treatment)
6. Failure to document the diagnosis, treatment plan, goals for treatment, continuing need for medication and lab results
7. Failure to understand what drug testing can and cannot tell you
8. Deviation from the “contract” (i.e. misbehavior is never addressed either verbally or written)
9. Blind acceptance of whatever is said by patients
10. Trying to bully law enforcement or regulatory agents or assuming an arrogant “I-know-best” attitude when confronted by them
This ... is a fair representation of what I have seen in the records that have been submitted to the Academy for review through the Second Opinion Utilization Review program.TEN TIPS FOR STAYING OUT OF TROUBLE
1. Obtain a thorough history and perform a first rate physical examination...
2. Chart everything you see, think, feel and hear about your patients. Leave nothing to the imagination of the future reader. ... Explain what you are doing, why you believe opioid analgesics will be helpful, what alternative have been considered, that your patient agrees to the treatment, and how you intend to follow your patient over time.
3. Obtain informed consent from your patients so there is no doubt about the treatment proposed....
4. Get your patients to agree to use only one pharmacy.....
5. If you are seeing your patients in the capacity of a primary care practitioner ... get a second opinion.... Share the responsibility to prescribe opioid analgesics....
6. Prescribe long acting opioid analgesics on a time contingent basis so that stable levels are achieved. Avoid "as needed" medications...
7. See your patients who are receiving opioid analgesics on a regular basis. ...
8. Determine the minimum dose necessary to maintain function and useful activities of daily living....
9. Order urine drug screens for your patients of concern to document that you are able to recover their prescribed medications (to rule out
significant diversion) and that you are thinking about their potential use of illicit substances....
10. Continue to receive opioid analgesic education by attending recognized...[DEA suggestions include...]
• perform a thorough examination appropriate to the condition
• document examination results and questions you asked the patient
• request picture I.D., or other I.D. and Social Security number. Photocopy these documents and include them in the patient's record
• call a previous practitioner, pharmacist or hospital to confirm patient's story
• confirm a telephone number, if provided by the patient
• confirm the current address at each visit
• write prescriptions for limited quantities.
<unquote>——————
A lot of places recommend written "opioid agreements" between the doc and the patient, spelling out treatment goals and agreeing that "lost" pills won't be replaced and that urine testing may be done to make sure the patient is actually the one taking the meds.
——————
This article tells how drug agencies conduct opioid "sting" operations on physicians. They send in a healthy-looking person as a new, unreferred patient with vague pain complaints who asks for an opioid but doesn't cooperate with getting further tests or prior medical records. Or he tells the doc at the second visit that he gave some of the med to his girlfriend. If the doc continues to write opioid prescriptions for such a patient, the doc could get charged: http://www.aapainmanage.org/literature/PainPrac/V13N2_Cole_PrescribersUpdate.pdf
——————
The only buprenorphine charge I could find was a Colorado doctor who HANDED bupe to someone who wasn't his patient. (He also prescribed the stimulant Phentermine to a woman intending that it actually be given to her husband, an NFL player. That was the heart of the charge.) http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_2481985,00.html
Posted by Nieko on July 19, 2008, at 20:18:58
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » crazyamy, posted by Aurora on October 30, 2003, at 23:55:41
I have been taking Suboxone for nine months now. I have NEVER felt better. After years of trying every new (as well as old) antidepressant out there, I had all but given up hope. The hope of a happy life was becoming increasingly hopeless. Suicide was not an option because I simply didn't have enough energy to do anything! I got really lucky; I found out about Suboxone and then found a Dr. willing to prescribe. It was almost immediate relief. Within a day I felt 100% better, and I am not exaggerating. The cost of this drug is the setback. If their were a campaign put together to get Reckitt-Benckiser Pharmaceuticals (maker of Suboxone) to recognize the use of their drug for depression. I realize the major use of Suboxone is to withdraw heroin addicts and I also know that even this is not the major source of their profit. Perhaps if they realized the significance of using their drug for depression, they would begin targeting this population. It appears as though Reckitt-Benckiser has a monopoly on Suboxone. What can we, as depression survivors do to make this an available drug to the masses? Let's get together and see what our now alert minds can do.
Posted by Crotale on July 21, 2008, at 12:33:55
In reply to keeping opioid prescribers out of trouble, posted by pseudoname on November 10, 2005, at 12:03:45
A couple suggestions not only for keeping your doc out of trouble if s/he prescribes opioids, but also for demonstrating your own trustworthiness:
* offer to sign a contract
* try to keep the dose as low as possible (also because these drugs have quite a lot of side effects)
* give your pdoc the phone number for the pharmacy you use (always get it filled at the same place; I recommend a local, independent pharmacy rather than a chain)
* if you're asking your pdoc to continue a prescription started by another doc, give him/her the phone # for that doc; call the original prescriber and give him/her permission to tell your current doc about the prescription (you may have to write a note or something of that sort)
* get advice from your doc about how to use the med properly
* keep your doc regularly informed about your use of the med, and make it clear that you're not abusing it (note that the definition of "drug abuse" is "whatever your doctor says it is")There have been some other good suggestions here (although IMO a few of them, like some of the DEA's recommendations, are way over the top). I'm pretty sure that as long as you're not misusing the drug in any way, your doc
Be careful not to do anything your doc would consider "abuse" even if you don't agree about how s/he defines that. (Try to find a doc whose attitudes you're comfortable with, of course, but be careful to avoid "doctor shopping" - that is, switching doctors repeatedly with the exclusive purpose of finding someone willing to prescribe an opioid.)Oh, one other thing: it's better to ask for a lower-schedule opioid like tramadol or buprenorphine. Make it clear that you're concerned about avoiding becoming addicted. (And if you're not, you should be. It's a serious risk. That's why I've stuck to buprenorphine - I would have gone with Ultram if I weren't also taking Parnate.) It also can't hurt to let your doc know that you don't want to get him/her in trouble. Exactly how to address the issue depends on your relationship with your doc, how long you've been seeing him/her, etc.
-Crotale
Posted by maree on July 22, 2008, at 21:32:13
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression, posted by androog on October 19, 2001, at 23:26:35
> There's no doubt in my mind that my depression is at the root of my substance abuse, not the other way around. It's just a guess, but I'd say a good majority of substance abusers are suffering from some form of depression. I further believe that the reason we abuse certain substances is that we're trying to make up for something lacking in our brain chemistry - something that occurs naturally in others. I know all the talk is about serotonin, but I'd bet the house that what we substance abusers are lacking in are endorphins.
Hi Androog/Peter
I have often thought the above, since I know that i have a very addictive personality, AND that I only love life when I am on a permanent endorphin high.
Years ago, I discover alcohol, unfortunately because it destroyed an incredible memory, and it was likely 10 years after the alcohol abuse that I realized that the drinking was why I had suddenly had difficulties remembering stuff at work, which, previously had never been a problem. I thought that I had got away with the drinking, unlike other people who get a lot of health problems, but, it also awoke the likelihood that I would have a CVA, which I did. Since then, 12 years ago, I have NEVER been able to get an endorphin rush, not even from alcohol, so you can imagine that life is pretty dismal for me.
I point out to many of my treating docs (psyches & neuros) that it is the lack of an endorphin rush that, not only makes me so unhappy and unfulfilled, but is also likely responsible for many of my physical problems, in particular the ongoing fatigue, lowered pain threshold, short term memory loss (even worse then after the drinking) and lowered immune system. Are they interested? Of course not. Who do I think I am? A retarded stroke victim, who only just finished high school, not some erudite personage who went to medical school, who has experience with dozens of patients over a period of many years. Experience? I have lived with a broken, disabled, body and brain for 12 years, I think THAT counts for experience far more than anything that they might have done.
So, what my long diatribe is saying that, yes, yes, yes, I think that you are so right in your statement, and when you find some doctor who actually listens to what you say, please tell me.
Regards, and good luck in your quest for happiness.
Posted by Crotale on July 25, 2008, at 22:34:00
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » androog, posted by maree on July 22, 2008, at 21:32:13
I'm just adding my agreement with what has already been said; I think most (not all) substance abusers are, or at least, started out, self-medicating. I believe that the way to prevent this self-medication from transforming into abuse is for a doctor to prescribe and supervise the opioid rather than simply condemning opioid use. Ideally you want to stick with the lowest possible dose. I think Ultram is the best to start with, unless you are on MAOIs or have a history of seizures. Beyond that, I'm not sure. Ideally you want to use Temgesic (0.2mg buprenorphine SL). Most doctors aren't likely to be comfortable with having a patient self-inject Buprenex (IM) (0.3mg/mL). Buprenex also works IN with a metered-dose inhaler. Subutex and Suboxone, the sublingual formulations designed for drug addicts, are much higher doses. (Supposedly bioavailability is the same or close SL and IM.)
The lowest available dose in a single pill of Subutex is 4mg, which I'm sure would make me sick to my stomach.My personal experience: I never felt anything that I'd descrine as a "high" from opioids; They just make me feel more clear (jittery initially), itchy, and sometimes nauseated. Careful because they have heavy side effects.
-Crotale
Posted by Crotale on July 25, 2008, at 22:44:13
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » androog, posted by maree on July 22, 2008, at 21:32:13
BTW, my experience with drug addicts who had tried "bupe" is that it relieved withdrawal symptoms but wasn't especially euphoric.
-Crotale
Posted by Nieko on August 27, 2008, at 15:32:29
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » androog, posted by maree on July 22, 2008, at 21:32:13
Hi Maree,
I have read your story and you have my total sympathy. I believe you are right regarding your belief that endorphins are at the root of many depressive problems. I have suffered with depression from childhood to the age of 43. Through sheer luck (maybe a Hower power looking out for me) I found a Dr. who was familiar with Suboxone in the treatment of depression. His theory was that endorphins were lacking in certain people. Considering the fact that I had tried every anti-depressant on the market with absolutely no success, he agreed with the theory. He also had a few other patients who were on Suboxone for the treatment of depression and was having excellent results. This medication absolutely changed my life. I too had been living in a world of dark despair, suicidal thoughts on a regular basis, and unable to maintain employment. Literally it took only a few minutes for the drug to start working. I started feeling as if the black cloud was lifting and actually felt alive for the first time ever! I am sorry that I am nowhere near your area so that I could help you to find a doc. I also went the Ultram route. I found that it was relieving my depression. I had no idea it would work in this way, I was simply prescibed it for another reason. Suboxone works somewhat in the same manner, just a thousand times better. It falls under the name of "buprenorphine." Physician are required to take a special course in order to prescribe it. I think more and more dr's are beginning to see the light and hopefully many more will soon. Good luck in your efforts and I hope this information will be of some help.
Posted by safire4hope on October 18, 2011, at 7:29:01
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » crazyamy, posted by Aurora on October 30, 2003, at 23:55:41
I don't know if anyone is reading this thread anymore, but I just want to say that I was self medicating with opiates after years of searching for an AD, of which nothing worked. I finally found opiates to target just the right symptoms and I was finally able to function in society normally. I know some may say or think this is just an excuse to use drugs, but I would love to NOT have to use ANY drugs, but my brain is not wired the same way yours is. I have been on suboxone now for about 4 months and it is saving my life. I have a medication for my depression and I am receiving it legally, and i have to say a lot cheaper than if I bought it outside of a pharmacy....I believe this is one of many treatments for depression, bc yes we all have different needs and symptoms and our bodies react differently to EVERYTHING, but if their is anyone else out there that is in a similiar situation, just know you are not alone.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on October 18, 2011, at 7:36:12
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » Aurora, posted by safire4hope on October 18, 2011, at 7:29:01
I'd have to identify myself as an "addict" and present for "treatment" in order to receive buprenorphine, something which I am presently not willing to do.
I have been on it before and it is an amazing antidepressant. It is not you who should have to justify your taking the drug to feel better, but rather people who believe in pharmaco-mythology and make bald-faced assertions about which drugs are "good" and "bad".
Posted by safire4hope on October 18, 2011, at 8:43:16
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » safire4hope, posted by Chairman_MAO on October 18, 2011, at 7:36:12
I understand completely, thank you for your reply, and if I were not an addict myself I would feel the same way, but after years of taking opiates to self medicated I became physically dependent. I started the suboxone to gradually move to another AD because I was tired of being in "that type of situation" even if it did help my depression. It wasn't a legal solution and that is not how I want to live my life. It was only after I started the treatment that I realized the suboxone treated my depression just as well if not better.That also led me to the knowledge that there have actually been studies done concerning depression and this medication. Studies that had postive results! When I realized I wasn't the only one to have the same results with the drug I started to research it further which led me to my present state of mind: this is a good treatment for certain people with depression and it should continue to be researched in that regard.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on October 18, 2011, at 12:07:42
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » Chairman_MAO, posted by safire4hope on October 18, 2011, at 8:43:16
> I understand completely, thank you for your reply, and if I were not an addict myself
I've abused drugs before. In fact, I've used illicit opiates just to test positive to get on Suboxone for depression (via an addiction clinic). I would still be taking it if it didn't mean stigmatizing myself as an "addict", which really screws you in the long-term in many respects. I don't care about people's classifications of drugs. I care about my own well-being. If I am not hurting anyone else, I deserve to be left alone. The medico-statists and their apologists can go take a flying ...
Of course opiates work for depression. Everyone knows this. You don't need any more "research", there is plenty of research.
http://opioids.com/antidepressant/
The only reason they aren't used more is drug law.
Buprenorphine is ideal for depression for many reasons, one being that if you take too much of it, it starts antagonizing its own effect, making it way safer in overdose than many over-the-counter medications.
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on October 18, 2011, at 18:54:54
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » Aurora, posted by safire4hope on October 18, 2011, at 7:29:01
I've found success with buprenorphine because of it's kappa antagonist as everyone with depression has an overactive brain based upon Helen Mayberg's study with PET scans showing too much glucose consumption in even minor depression and the Pet Scans remain overactive until the patient goes into remission and for Dr. Mayberg, remission was with doing deep brain stimulation. Those that stayed depression still showed an overactive brain or too much glucose consumption.
Posted by safire4hope on October 18, 2011, at 19:27:21
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » safire4hope, posted by Chairman_MAO on October 18, 2011, at 12:07:42
My views are changing completely after reading and researching. I believed myself to be an addict just because I took a drug that helped my symptoms but "everyone else" said was illegal and "not right". I went for treatment because of all the trouble my self medicating was causing, and I now believe that I am not an addict, because I never "abused" any medication, but am only physically dependent which is something all people on certain meds have to deal with. Either be dependent or be depressed. If i have to choose I would choose dependent. I appreciate and agree with your statement of not caring what others think and only of your own well being. At this point I am ok with my depression and my "treatment for addiction" because I now know they are one in the same, but eventually I will have to deal with "what others think" when the doctors feel it is time for me to come off the suboxone. I only hope my own doctor or one I can locate will work with me and help me as much as possible. I don't ever want to be back in my "depressed" state again. It was not a pretty picture and cause my family a great deal of pain for a long time.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on October 18, 2011, at 20:33:47
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » safire4hope, posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on October 18, 2011, at 18:54:54
> I've found success with buprenorphine because of it's kappa antagonist as everyone with depression has an overactive [... snip ...]
You found success with it because it is a mu-opioid agonist. You'd have just as much success with morphine. The kappa antagonist effect is good, but let's keep it real here.
Posted by sigismund on October 19, 2011, at 2:50:30
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » CaptainAmerica1967, posted by Chairman_MAO on October 18, 2011, at 20:33:47
When compared with methadone I have heard people report some kind of elevation with bupe, once the changeover has been achieved.
But that is compared to methadone which is toxic enough.
Posted by CaptainAmerica1967 on October 19, 2011, at 8:29:28
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » CaptainAmerica1967, posted by Chairman_MAO on October 18, 2011, at 20:33:47
Yes, I cannot deny that the opioid Mu receptor made me feel a little better but no more than any of the 100's of medications I've taken over the past 28 years of my life. I've tried tramadol and other Mu receptors meds and they only minimally helped as all meds have in my (TRD) treatment resistant depression /c anxiety and have had IV morphine after a car accident in 1986 from a seizure caused by high dose trazodone (1000 mg) that was very serious killing my Mother even after she told the psychiatrist I was having blank out spells, but he ignored my Mother's concern and said it was anxiety attacks causing me to faint and didn't believe trazodone could cause seizures even at a super high dose.
However, morphine did not make me feel like the buprenorphine. Pharmaceutical companies are working on several kappa antagonists and even addiction specialist, the head of NAABT, Richard Gracer, MD said depressed patients feel better on buprenorphine because of the kappa receptor antongism and believes that individuals /c depression have an impaired or overactive kappa system. Difference in treating refractory depression (TRD) vs opiate addiction is the dose SL tablets; TRD .5 mg - 4 mg QD vs addiction TX up to 20 mg of buprenorphine day. Gracer states that taking buprenorphine for depression isn't a weakness and is no different than patients who must take an antidepressant for a lifetime and shouldn't feel ashamed about that. I always told my depressed patients that it's no different that some of my diabetic patients that must remain on insulin for a lifetime.
I have developed osteoarthritis in the left knee from being an extreme athlete in trying to control my depression via endorphins, enkephalins release from extreme workouts all of these years and buprenorphine has a similar effect of calming my brain down after a hard workout and buprenorphine is indicated for osteoarthritis, but only the liquid injectable form which I refuse to take as injecting buprenorphine can really make one addictted and have severe withdrawal so I pay for the sublingual tablets off label 2 mg BID or $100 for 60 tablets, a months supply; Butrans patch by Purdue Pharma recently came out with their buprenorphine patch and is indicated for osteoarthritis pain but Medicare is denying it currently. The original buprenorphine study on TRD by Bodkin et al, used the liquid form but either used the buprenorphine liquid intranasally (60% bioavailability) or liquid sublingually (50% bioavailability) which is better than the sublingual tablets (40% bioavailabity) but the cost of the liquid is about 3x as much as the tablets and am not sure of the cost of the Butrans patch yet (50% bioavailabity).
I've had 70 ECT's when I was 18y/o-19y/o right /p high school graduation in '85 over a yr. period, tried over 100 medications since I was 16y/o in 1983, studied medicine as a PA to try to research TRD more on my own and have for years even prior to studying medicine in the early '90s and the MAOI type A antidepressants seem to work the best. Parnate is the best in my personal opinion at least for me with the comorbid depression with anxiety even though I took Nardil (has GABA inhibitor but mroe toxic to body) for 12yrs but Parnate has less side effects and boosts libdo, but I personally need clonazepam for the anxiety, for seizure prevention of high dose antidepressants in which I'm taking 100 mg of Parnate (high dose of trazodone, 1000 mg caused the seizure in 1986 and could have sued my psychiatrist but it wasn't going to bring back my Mother), and lastly need clonazepam for my REM sleep disorder; muscles aren't paralyzed during REM sleep, stage 5 as I sleepwalk, thrash, kick, punch-last girlfriend got a black eye-has made me hesitant towards longterm dating, talk all while sleeping and go directly into REM sleep instead of the 90 minutes it normally takes to go through the typical sleep phases-shoretned REM latency which is really more related to TRD. I just started taking Xyrem (known as GHB or sodium oxybate) for my REM sleep disorder which helps tremendously in getting at least 3-4 hours of sleep without before waking up as I used to sleep for one to two hours and wake up from thrashing, sleepwalking or talking in my sleep and Xyrem also helps /c the depression and anxiety.
My depression is definitely an overactive brain as sleep deprivation works wonders for me (as do cold showers/baths) and calms my brain down (reduces glucose levels in the brain? Increases monoamines? Increases libido-increased dopamine?) but as soon as I get any amount of sleep, the depression/anxiety/hot flashes/difficulty concentrating returns.
Neurolgist Helen Mayberg of Emory Univeristy has shown that everyone with depression has certain parts of the brain that use too much glucose consumption-hyperactivity, areas around Broadmann's area 25 or the subgenual cingulate which controls serotonin transporters and controls the hypothalamus that in turn controls various mood areas of the brain like the amygdala. Additional studies with deep brain stimulation have shown that stimulating the white matter surrounding area 25 is just as effective in treating TRD and all of these areas are hyperactive to meaning too much glucose consumption is being used as shown on the PET Scan..
Posted by europerep on October 19, 2011, at 8:32:45
In reply to Re: opiates and major depression » CaptainAmerica1967, posted by Chairman_MAO on October 18, 2011, at 20:33:47
> You found success with it because it is a mu-opioid agonist. You'd have just as much success with morphine. The kappa antagonist effect is good, but let's keep it real here.
>Actually, buprenorphine is a partial mu-opioid agonist. Furthermore, research on kappa-antagonism shows its potential for treating depression, so this component of buprenorphine may well play a role. Lastly, buprenorphine's metabolite norbuprenorphine is a delta-agonist, which may as well contribute to buprenorphine's antidepressant potential.
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