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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rovers95 on January 26, 2007, at 4:51:51
Hi scott, hope you are doing ok - having responded again to Ket i am seriously looking into trying riluzole (it seems a safer long-term option to me)......seen as you seem, like me, to have gathered knowledge with regards to glutamate based drugs i was just wondering if you knew whether riluzole, like ket and magnesium, has pro dopaminergenic properties due to its NMDA antagonism???
I am seriously considering a trial through a cheaper online source. Aiming 2 start with 2 x 50mg a day - is this the dosage used in your trial?
mark
Posted by rovers95 on January 26, 2007, at 4:56:30
In reply to SLS - riluzole!!!, posted by rovers95 on January 26, 2007, at 4:51:51
http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00419003
This new trial looks interesting.....basically seeing if those who respond to ket, also show a response to riluzole.
mark
Posted by SLS on January 26, 2007, at 5:47:00
In reply to New glutamate drugs trial., posted by rovers95 on January 26, 2007, at 4:56:30
> http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00419003
>
> This new trial looks interesting.....basically seeing if those who respond to ket, also show a response to riluzole.
>
> markAbsolutely cool.
- Scott
Posted by Tom Twilight on January 26, 2007, at 5:51:47
In reply to Re: New glutamate drugs trial., posted by SLS on January 26, 2007, at 5:47:00
I suspect that Glutamate is a major under recognised
"Player" in Anxiety & Depression, also possibly Schizophrenia.I hope it will recieve more attention now!
Drugs that increase Glutamate deffinetly make me more anxious.
Posted by SLS on January 26, 2007, at 6:00:40
In reply to SLS - riluzole!!!, posted by rovers95 on January 26, 2007, at 4:51:51
> Hi scott, hope you are doing ok - having responded again to Ket i am seriously looking into trying riluzole (it seems a safer long-term option to me)......seen as you seem, like me, to have gathered knowledge with regards to glutamate based drugs i was just wondering if you knew whether riluzole, like ket and magnesium, has pro dopaminergenic properties due to its NMDA antagonism???
I don't know for sure. I would have to dig around to find out. I think glutamate release inhibition certainly can, though. Doing so produces a disinhibition of dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens if I remember correctly. Both Lamictal and Riluzole share this property. If you can afford it, I wouldn't discourage you from trying Riluzole, despite my failure to respond to it. Actually, it exacerbated my depression after only 3 days and at a dosage of 100mg. Many drugs exacerbate my depression, and I have been treatment-resistant, so my case should not be used as a model of any type of response pattern to a given drug.
I wish you luck with riluzole. I don't see how it makes sense to exclude it from consideration.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 26, 2007, at 11:36:26
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole!!!, posted by SLS on January 26, 2007, at 6:00:40
Scott aren't most of the people on this board tx resistant?Love Phillipa at least that's what people keep saying. What constitutes treatment resistant?
Posted by SLS on January 26, 2007, at 12:12:15
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole!!! » SLS, posted by Phillipa on January 26, 2007, at 11:36:26
the staging for antidepressant resistance offered by Dr. Thase and colleagues:
* Stage 1: Failure of an adequate trial of 1 class of major antidepressant
* Stage 2: Failure of adequate trials of 2 distinctly different classes of antidepressant
* Stage 3: Stage 2 plus failure of a third class of antidepressant, including a tricyclic antidepressant (TCA)
* Stage 4: Stage 3 plus failure of an adequate trial of a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI)
* Stage 5: Stage 4 plus failure of an adequate course of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT)
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 26, 2007, at 12:13:16
In reply to SLS - riluzole!!!, posted by rovers95 on January 26, 2007, at 4:51:51
"An Open-Label Trial of Riluzole in Patients With Treatment-Resistant Major Depression"
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/161/1/171
- Scott
Posted by rovers95 on January 26, 2007, at 12:58:42
In reply to Re: New glutamate drugs trial., posted by SLS on January 26, 2007, at 5:47:00
Thanks scott, hav u ever tried/had a response to ket??? Just as that could be an indicator (or may not be if ket worked for you!) as to how someone would respond to riluzole.
Anyway, i will let everyone know how i get on, in my view having my health back is worth £60 a week!!!
mark
Posted by blueberry1 on January 26, 2007, at 16:59:20
In reply to SLS - riluzole!!!, posted by rovers95 on January 26, 2007, at 4:51:51
Hi Mark,
Something you said caught my attention. "like ket and magnesium, has pro dopaminergenic properties due to its NMDA antagonism???"Tell me about magnesium and its connection to dopamine and NMDA. My doctor prescribed magnesium for me yesterday in order to tame down overactive glutamate. But I didn't know about pro-dopaminergic effects of magnesium. Can you explain?
Thanks.
blueberry
Posted by Phillipa on January 26, 2007, at 19:05:43
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole!!! » Phillipa, posted by SLS on January 26, 2007, at 12:12:15
Scott well the way I see it then most aren't. Love Phillipa
Posted by rovers95 on January 27, 2007, at 4:47:11
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole!!! » rovers95, posted by blueberry1 on January 26, 2007, at 16:59:20
> Hi Mark,
> Something you said caught my attention. "like ket and magnesium, has pro dopaminergenic properties due to its NMDA antagonism???"
>
> Tell me about magnesium and its connection to dopamine and NMDA. My doctor prescribed magnesium for me yesterday in order to tame down overactive glutamate. But I didn't know about pro-dopaminergic effects of magnesium. Can you explain?
>
> Thanks.
> blueberry
>
>
>
>Think this is how it works, excess glutamate at the NMDA receptors inhibits dopamine release into the nucleus accumbens (and probably other parts of the brain).
For example, magnesium deficient rats are found with normal levels of noradrenaline, adrenaline and seretonin.........but lower levels of dopamine, however if you were in this situation and you were to take something like wellbrutin you may get yourself up to the right amount of dopamine, but as this converts to adrenaline and noradrenaline - you would find yourself "over stimulated", especially with the excessive glutamate.
Therefore, plugging the NMDA receptor through magnesium prevents the release of glutamate, and appears to prevent glutamate induced damage to the D1 and D2 receptors. It also downregulates the HPA axis (the stress response).
If i was you i would use a chelated form (solgars??), and if that is innefective try IM injections as this is all that works for some people.
mark
Posted by jasmineneroli on January 31, 2007, at 1:02:36
In reply to Re: blueberry, posted by rovers95 on January 27, 2007, at 4:47:11
Hey:
Haven't posted here for over a year!
I'd like to know what drugs/foods/supplements increase glutamate.
Anyone able to help me there?
Thanks a bunch
J
Posted by rovers95 on January 31, 2007, at 6:02:33
In reply to Drugs/foods that increase Glutamate????, posted by jasmineneroli on January 31, 2007, at 1:02:36
> Hey:
> Haven't posted here for over a year!
> I'd like to know what drugs/foods/supplements increase glutamate.
> Anyone able to help me there?
> Thanks a bunch
> JCaffeine (also increases dopamine) and Monosodium glutamate (MSG) are two of the big ones!!
mark
Posted by Nadezda on May 21, 2008, at 15:27:37
In reply to SLS - riluzole!!!, posted by rovers95 on January 26, 2007, at 4:51:51
Did you try riluzole? If so, how did it go? any side effects? was it effective?
Nadezda
Posted by SLS on May 21, 2008, at 17:31:02
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole!!!, posted by Nadezda on May 21, 2008, at 15:27:37
> Did you try riluzole?
Yes.
> If so, how did it go?
I felt nothing. It neither improved nor exacerbated my depression.
> any side effects?
I don't recall having a single one.
How close are you to trying it?
- Scott
Posted by Nadezda on May 21, 2008, at 17:53:29
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole!!!, posted by SLS on May 21, 2008, at 17:31:02
Very close. I'm trying to find out more about the side effect profile, but if it's okay, I'll try it.
Nadezda
Posted by Nadezda on May 24, 2008, at 13:52:00
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole!!!, posted by SLS on May 21, 2008, at 17:31:02
Scott, how long did you take the riluzole? do you have a more anxious type of depression?
I may be wrong, but I had the feeling you were more prone to bipolar?
Nadezda
Posted by SLS on May 24, 2008, at 17:13:48
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole!!!, posted by Nadezda on May 24, 2008, at 13:52:00
> Scott, how long did you take the riluzole? do you have a more anxious type of depression?
For only 4 weeks. I tried to go up to 40mg, but I aborted that dosage as soon as I felt drunk. I should have stuck with it to see if that side effect would have dissipated. No antidepressant effect.
> I may be wrong, but I had the feeling you were more prone to bipolar?Yes. However, social anxiety had been a big time problem early in my illness. Nardil does a good job for that.
- Scott
Posted by Nadezda on June 1, 2008, at 23:36:45
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole!!! » Nadezda, posted by SLS on May 24, 2008, at 17:13:48
Hi, Scott.
Thanks for the information.
I wondered what you thought about the comments one person made particularly about riluzole making him "dumb"-- by which he might have meant he had some loss of acuity, agility or memory (I'm not sure).
Sometimes things like that are hard to evaluate, or easy to rationalize. Do you think a glutamate-enhancing type of AD would tend to have such effects?
I know you only took rilutek for a brief period, but did you notice anything at all?
Thanks again,
Nadezda
Posted by SLS on June 2, 2008, at 2:38:11
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole, posted by Nadezda on June 1, 2008, at 23:36:45
Hi Nadezda.
> I wondered what you thought about the comments one person made particularly about riluzole making him "dumb"-- by which he might have meant he had some loss of acuity, agility or memory (I'm not sure).
I noticed no worsening of my cognitive abilities, which suck to begin with because of depression.
> Do you think a glutamate-enhancing type of AD would tend to have such effects?Modafinil (Provigil), a glutamate release enhancer, destroyed me. It made me very dumb and left me in a fog. It exacerbated my depression greatly.
> I know you only took rilutek for a brief period, but did you notice anything at all?
Actually, I found riluzole to be quite neutral. It affected neither my cognition nor affect.
- Scott
Posted by undopaminergic on June 3, 2008, at 0:40:41
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole, posted by SLS on June 2, 2008, at 2:38:11
>
> > Do you think a glutamate-enhancing type of AD would tend to have such effects?
>
> Modafinil (Provigil), a glutamate release enhancer, destroyed me. It made me very dumb and left me in a fog. It exacerbated my depression greatly.
>Your experience with modafinil is remarkable. It generally has the opposite effects on most people, although I did read of one other person who noted effects of the same character as you do, but with much less intensity.
I think modafinil's glutamate enhancement is an effect downstream of its dopaminergic reuptake inhibition. Cocaine and amphetamine also increase glutamate efflux in several regions, including prefrontal cortex and nucleus accumbens, and this effect is prevented by dopamine D1- and D2-receptor antagonists.
Do you react better to the other stimulants?
Posted by SLS on June 3, 2008, at 4:58:42
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole, posted by undopaminergic on June 3, 2008, at 0:40:41
Hi.
> > > Do you think a glutamate-enhancing type of AD would tend to have such effects?
> >
> > Modafinil (Provigil), a glutamate release enhancer, destroyed me. It made me very dumb and left me in a fog. It exacerbated my depression greatly.
> Your experience with modafinil is remarkable. It generally has the opposite effects on most people, although I did read of one other person who noted effects of the same character as you do, but with much less intensity.
>
> I think modafinil's glutamate enhancement is an effect downstream of its dopaminergic reuptake inhibition. Cocaine and amphetamine also increase glutamate efflux in several regions, including prefrontal cortex and nucleus accumbens, and this effect is prevented by dopamine D1- and D2-receptor antagonists.
>
> Do you react better to the other stimulants?Yes, but only for a few days.
I have a pattern with standard antidepressants such that after 2 weeks have passed, I experience a robust antidepressant response that lasts for three days. After this three day period of improvement comes a crash into my baseline (unmedicated) depression. With Dexedrine, I experience an improvement within hours of the first dose. Unfortunately, this response lasts for three days. Three days seems to be an important clue to what's going on, as my brain insists on compensating for the altered psychobiology.
Regarding my experience with modafinil, the worsening of condition lasted for at 2 weeks after discontinuing the drug.
Thanks for your feedback.
- Scott
Posted by Nadezda on June 4, 2008, at 14:27:24
In reply to Re: SLS - riluzole, posted by SLS on June 2, 2008, at 2:38:11
I've taken it for seven days, 25 mg. I'm about to increase for another week to 50 mg.
So far, it's either been ineffective or helpful. It's hard to tell because my emotions are all over the place-- in general. I'll have to wait to get an overall picture of how much and how far my moods go up and down, and whether there's any change in baseline. ( I have atypical depression and probably an anxiety disorder.)
So far, though, I'm beginning to be slightly, though not overly, hopeful that it might help.
Nadezda
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