![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Glydin on May 15, 2008, at 14:23:37
I did not wish to hyjack any further thus a new thread...
> Seems all of us nurses drank after work and were on meds so we all did fine and had the best psych unit in our part of the woods.
~~~ I wasn't asking about your co-workers.
> We didn't prescribe for patients the docs did that~~~ I didn't implied you prescribed. Nurses do have input into treatment plans.
Moving on....
I have no problem with the personal choices folks make when they assess the risks of THEIR behaviors. I only seek to clarify the idea those choices do come with risks. What folks DO and what they are ADVISED is certainly different. As far as what you choose to do, that's your call and no one should try and answer: "...should I take up drinking alcohol again?", IMO.I have been misled as to the risk of resp. depression when mixing benzo's and alcohol? Was the situation of Karen Ann Quinlan's unfortunate state not due to the mixing?
I do not wish to have a debate - plain and simple, if I'm wrong about the risks and some information has come to light that proves there is no longer a risk... please correct me.
Posted by MidnightBlue on May 15, 2008, at 19:35:25
In reply to For phillipa, posted by Glydin on May 15, 2008, at 14:23:37
I think you are right about mixing benzos and alcohol. Also for what I it worth one pdoc advised me to START drinking, he said it would make me feel better. I dropped him.
MB
Posted by Phillipa on May 15, 2008, at 21:30:04
In reply to For phillipa, posted by Glydin on May 15, 2008, at 14:23:37
Hummm seems a lot of folks drink on meds see social. Phillipa
Posted by sunnydays on May 15, 2008, at 22:36:45
In reply to Re: For phillipa » Glydin, posted by Phillipa on May 15, 2008, at 21:30:04
Mixing benzos and alcohol is a BAD idea. They both act on the same exact receptor in the brain. Either alone depress central nervous system activity. Mixing the two has a high potential to be lethal. I haven't read any recent threads, but I studied this in a class recently, and I would strongly urge NO ONE to mix benzos and alcohol. I also take benzos and have been told to absolutely never drink if I take one (I take them as needed).
sunnydays
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on May 15, 2008, at 22:49:48
In reply to Re: For phillipa » Glydin, posted by Phillipa on May 15, 2008, at 21:30:04
Yes, I have always enjoyed my summers with lovely cocktails galore, and it hasn't been unusual for me to drink 5 or so nights a week (not always to get fully 'drunk') in the warm weather. I know many, many pro's who drink 4-5 times a week, usually with a 'nightcap'. Some are university prof's, some lawyers, politicians, and yes even a urologist friend of mine. I take my Milk Thistle, vitamins, and get my liver tested every 6 months, and never any problems. But I have never a) 'craved' a drink and b) never has my use gotten out of control, or in the way of, anything in my life. Now I am a social worker, so ya, of course I guess I should know better, eh?..heh.
Just my .02 cents (Canadian, of course..lol.)
Jay
Posted by Molybdenum on May 15, 2008, at 23:31:51
In reply to Re: For phillipa, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on May 15, 2008, at 22:49:48
Well, well, well.....
I think every box of pills these days comes with a huge list of "don'ts". I pity any woman who is planning on getting pregnant and suffers from well "anything". All the drugco's want is a release of responsibility of course. I used to peel off & collect the stupid little stickers that pharmacists put on even my sleeping pills here! Things like "do not take this medication and drive or operate heavy machinery" and my favourite "this medication may make you drowsy". I should bloody hope so..!
On a personal note, I've had severe central sleep apnoea for years - maybe forever before I was diagnosed. I stop breathing on average once every 2 mins all night..!
And yet, I've been mixing benzos with alcohol since I was 16. I'm sure it's possible to vomit & then choke & die. Certainly the benzos would make death a little more likely in that scenario.
But since I've matured a bit (20 yrs) I don't drink to get drunk any more. So for me, the clonazepam, alprazolam & zolpidem goes down very well with a long vodka & orange. :)
What?
Well of course it's REAL orange juice..! Gotta get my vitamins somewhere.....
And to quote the HAL9000 computer in "2001 - A Space Odyssey":
"Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over."
And what do you get when you add one letter to H-A-L....?
Posted by Phillipa on May 15, 2008, at 23:43:34
In reply to Re: For phillipa, posted by Molybdenum on May 15, 2008, at 23:31:51
And times change as when pregnant the third time age 27 was on valium, placidyl two pills a night and the ob-gyn prescribed two glasses of a very expensive red wine to drink at bedtime. Also beer was supposed to help milk flow if nursing. And when went into false labor the ob-gyn gave me two seconals in the hospital and sent me home the next morning to wait two more weeks. Until I took chloral hydrate don't any more all my pdocs knew I drank beer with then my .5 of xanax. Was fine with them. Now nothing for 14 years and that's how long I've felt horrible. Connection ya think? Reasearch time. Love Phillipa ps my kids all had perfect apgar scores.
Posted by Molybdenum on May 16, 2008, at 4:58:54
In reply to Re: For phillipa » Molybdenum, posted by Phillipa on May 15, 2008, at 23:43:34
And furthermore....
My dear old mother has told me many times that she didn't take so much as an "aspirin" when she was pregnant with me.
And boy have I been trying to compensate for that ever since.....!
I'm not recommending everyone take benzos & drink. They certainly have an additive effect on me, but I do believe the warnings about mixing alcohol & meds are exaggerated.
There's a zillion people going to have a few drinks tonight. There's another zillion going to take some benzos, etc.
So I think there's probably only a few million taking both tonight. If they were such a deadly mix, there'd be an awful lots of corpses out there ;)
DISCLAIMER: NOW REMEMBER KIDS - DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.
Posted by Glydin on May 16, 2008, at 6:38:01
In reply to Re: For phillipa » Glydin, posted by Phillipa on May 15, 2008, at 21:30:04
Yes, folks on all types of meds drink alcohol when it's contraindicated and my statement before included: What folks DO and what they are
ADVISED differs.As a reminder, what I was asked before: Do the risks in mixing benzo's and ETOH no longer exist?
Posted by seldomseen on May 16, 2008, at 6:50:39
In reply to Re: » Phillipa, posted by Glydin on May 16, 2008, at 6:38:01
no the contraindication still exists.
The potential for a cumulative effect still exists.
It's all a question of dose and tolerance to either drug.
You should not drink to excess when taking the benzos, but a glass of wine with dinner is not going to kill you if you also have a valium on board.
You should not take benzos in excess while drinking either.
Posted by johnj on May 16, 2008, at 8:48:31
In reply to Re: » Phillipa, posted by Glydin on May 16, 2008, at 6:38:01
Glydin:
You know phillipa is going to do what she wants. She asks questions, ignores the advice, and then asks the same questions again. Phillipa, what is your intent?
Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2008, at 11:45:53
In reply to Re: » Phillipa, posted by Glydin on May 16, 2008, at 6:38:01
Not when I drank as the docs said fine but remember it's been 14 years so the subject has not been broached except to say do you drink or smoke answer is no. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2008, at 11:54:51
In reply to Re: » Glydin, posted by johnj on May 16, 2008, at 8:48:31
I feel I asked one question and that was in response to the different neurotransmitters and how alchohol hits many more than benzos. See from thread above. Never asked for permission to drink just for the different neurotramitters so this was my intent. Phillipa
Posted by MidnightBlue on May 16, 2008, at 13:22:39
In reply to Re: » Glydin, posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2008, at 11:45:53
So why did you quit drinking if it made you feel so much better and caused you no problems? There must have been a reason. You are a grown woman. No one can make you do something you don't want to do.
MB
Posted by johnj on May 16, 2008, at 13:36:34
In reply to Re:Question would like answer to » johnj, posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2008, at 11:54:51
Ok, get drunk this weekend and let us know how it turns out. You know it is not a good idea already. Do yourself a great big favor and try some of the suggestions people have given you (some of it great advice) and try and work to feel better. Obviously, what you are doing now is not working. Just for your info I am doing this right now, trying to make change even though it is uncomfortable.
Posted by Quintal on May 16, 2008, at 13:44:38
In reply to Re: » Phillipa, posted by Glydin on May 16, 2008, at 6:38:01
There is a small risk of respiratory depression when benzos and alcohol are mixed in extreme quantities. In someone who has been taking Valium for over 30 years and has tolerance to the drug, the risk is pretty close to nil, even if they were to get paralytic. A small dose of Valium probably has the depressant effect of half a glass of wine or so, another glass or two on top of that hardly makes any difference. This is a topic that resurfaces from time to time, and usually attracts borderline hysterical responses. The CNS depressants that really do carry a significant risk of lethality when mixed with alcohol are barbiturates and Heroin. The relative lack of respiratory depression was one of the reasons benzos supplanted barbs in the first place. The risk of combining typical doses of benzos with moderate amounts of alcohol in a healthy person is minimal.
Q
(Who is sipping a glass of wine as he types, and will be downing the whole bottle with zopiclone before the night is out [gasp!]).
Posted by Quintal on May 16, 2008, at 15:02:34
In reply to Re: » Phillipa, posted by MidnightBlue on May 16, 2008, at 13:22:39
Phillipa has posted in the past that she was prescribed chloral hydrate for sleep, and the doctor told her it would be dangerous to drink while taking chloral hydrate. This is why she stopped drinking if I recall correctly.
Q
Posted by bulldog2 on May 16, 2008, at 16:17:54
In reply to Re:, posted by Quintal on May 16, 2008, at 15:02:34
Taking benzos and drinking alcohol at the same time is not advised. However I believe Philoop uses valium at bedtime. So to have a couple beers almost 24 hours later probably poses little risk.I think the risk is downing benzos with an alcohol chaser. Also Philoop takes a small valium dose.
Posted by fayeroe on May 16, 2008, at 17:40:07
In reply to Re: For phillipa » Molybdenum, posted by Phillipa on May 15, 2008, at 23:43:34
P, my first daughter was born 41 years ago and I distinctly remember that my OB/GYN told me to not drink alchol or take any cold medicines that had alcohol, etc. in them.
It has been suggested that beer helps milk flow for nursing mothers...and I imagine it would also affect the milk that the baby gets...????
I am not going to drink and take xanax....I can cause enough trouble for myself, without inviting more.
Posted by sunnydays on May 16, 2008, at 18:13:35
In reply to Re: » Glydin, posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2008, at 11:45:53
Phillipa... many people drink and mix benzos. Many live, many have no complications, but some die and some have serious complications. I would think that you would have been taught this being a nurse, no matter how long ago.
These are the only medications I have ever been advised verbally not to drink with. I take Effexor and Lamictal, which both say on the info sheets not to drink with, but it's fine if I have a drink once a month or so (about how often I typically drink) my pdoc said. But the benzos, without me asking, she said you cannot drink and mix these, and in class my professor noted that you would not want to drink with these meds.
Just because you can do something and live to tell about it, even many times, does NOT mean it is medically advisable or biologically safe. Warnings are not made up to make people's lives miserable. They are because of proven risks that can occur. Drugs affect everyone differently, so of course the same thing won't happen to every person every time. But I personally would not want to take my life into my own hands. I am already taking a drug to relax me, why do I need to drink?
The GABA receptor is one receptor in the brain. Multiple things act on it, all producing the same effect. Alcohol, benzos, GABA, chloride ions, and barbiturates all act on the receptor.
A quote from my textbook, "Discovering Biological Psychology" by Laura A. Freberg:
"A number of important drugs exert their influence on the GABA A receptor...This is a complicated receptor with a number of different binding sites. The purpose for these multiple binding sites is not currently understood. Although only one binding site is activated by GABA itself, there are at least five other binding sites on the GABA A receptor. These additional sites may be activated by the benzodiazepines, a class of tranquilizers that includes diazepam (Valium), alcohol, and barbiturates, which are used in anesthesia and in the control of seizures. These drugs do not single-handedly activate the GABA A receptor, but when they occupy binding sites at the same time GABA is present, the net response to GABA is greater. Because GABA has a hyperpolarizing or inhibitory effect on postsynaptic neurons, GABA agonists enhance inhibition. The combined action of alcohol, benzodiazepines, or barbiturates at the same GABA A receptor can produce a life-threatening level of neural inhibition."
Personally, not a risk I'm willing to take with my life.
sunnydays
Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2008, at 18:21:37
In reply to Re:, posted by Quintal on May 16, 2008, at 15:02:34
Good memory didn't need a Mickey Finn. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on May 16, 2008, at 18:26:44
In reply to Re: » Phillipa, posted by sunnydays on May 16, 2008, at 18:13:35
People have drowned in two inches of bathwater. How, I don't know, but there you are. I don't know how people manage to die after a glass of wine and a Valium either, but it seems to have happened. Is having a drink while taking Valium like taking your life into your own hands? No. No more than taking a bath is a suicidal activity because someone, somewhere, in almost inconceivable circumstances, has died whilst doing so. Should people who take a warm bubble bath baths to relax feel guilty? No, not if they have any common sense. And there's just no accounting for that.
Q
Posted by Glydin on May 16, 2008, at 18:57:09
In reply to Re: » Phillipa, posted by sunnydays on May 16, 2008, at 18:13:35
Hi SD,
One of the problems I have come to learn is the line between "okay" and "dangerous" is inconsistent, variable and unpredicable. The mix that was fine last night, last week, last year... poof, is level that has a danger potential. The factors at play are difficult to count upon at any one given time. The line moves and one might find it difficult to know where the line is until it's crossed.
Dose dependence does seem to be a big factor. In speaking of the ETOH "dose".... I see a difference between a beer and a dose that is presented as daily use of almost a six pack.... maybe that's just me.This isn't an agenda for me. It's merely what I believe to be prudent information. Folks are responsible for their actions. I do find it difficult to understand why this topic seems to illicit such controversy when the downsides of most meds are simply what gets discussed more often than not.
I don't think the advice to not imbide if on benzos is an-lly extracted to take the gusto out of the lives of those who use benzo's. (Smile) I think there are good reasons for it.
Anyway, I hope informed adult folks can make their own decisions.
Hope you're well,
G
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on May 16, 2008, at 21:25:43
In reply to Re: Common sense, posted by Quintal on May 16, 2008, at 18:26:44
> People have drowned in two inches of bathwater. How, I don't know, but there you are. I don't know how people manage to die after a glass of wine and a Valium either, but it seems to have happened. Is having a drink while taking Valium like taking your life into your own hands? No. No more than taking a bath is a suicidal activity because someone, somewhere, in almost inconceivable circumstances, has died whilst doing so. Should people who take a warm bubble bath baths to relax feel guilty? No, not if they have any common sense. And there's just no accounting for that.
>
> QHey, excellent post! They have tried for centuries to use fear-mongering in both drug and alcohol use. Statistics are not destiny. Prohibition accomplished nothing. The 'war on drugs' has never been 'won'. Live and let live, I say.
Jay
Posted by sunnydays on May 16, 2008, at 22:32:58
In reply to Re: Common sense..great post! » Quintal, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on May 16, 2008, at 21:25:43
I have no problem with that - I agree that most of the fear tactics in the war on drugs are pretty much unfounded and unwarranted. But it's not just all govt. fear-mongering and the war on drugs. I was just trying to point out the biological facts. Sometimes there is a basis for a little healthy fear. And I don't quite understand why it seems there is so much hostility towards science and research. Yeah, it can be used for bad purposes, but so can anything else. Skepticism is healthy, and I certainly don't have blind faith in science or anything else. But sometimes scientists do know what they're talking about. Based on my knowledge of biology (I have completed a degree in biology), I personally don't think mixing benzos and alcohol is a good idea.
Mostly, I just don't want to see someone hurt because they read here that there's no point in listening to drug warnings because it's all scare tactics. There is science supporting the warnings. People can make their own decision from there. I just wanted to make sure people were informed and knew the science, that's all.
But I'm beginning to be pretty sure that it doesn't matter what I tell people, their minds are made up anyway, so finding out a little biology they may not have known won't change that. I'm sorry for trying to inform people. I feel like my experiences don't matter, only the opinions of others that support what people want to do and believe. So I'm sorry for sharing my experiences. I'll try not to let it happen again.
sunnydays
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.