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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Ezekiel on May 4, 2008, at 1:57:10
Hello everyone - this is actually my first post ever on this site, I've lurked on & off for a while but never decided to join until now.
So that being said, I'll now get to my question for all you pharmacologically erudite people! Does anyone out there presently take amineptine for depression? It seems hard to acquire, what are people's experience with this compound? My reading seems to indicate it exerts great efficacy with respect to alleviating stubborn depressive episodes - ok that's it, hope someone can enlighten me!
Posted by med_empowered on May 4, 2008, at 5:18:16
In reply to Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Ezekiel on May 4, 2008, at 1:57:10
it never got approved/marketed in the US and they stopped making it in Europe a while ago b/c of addiction concerns or something...then I think they also stopped making it worldwide.
Unfortunately, one of the most effective antidepressants might be gone for good.
Posted by bleauberry on May 4, 2008, at 14:32:55
In reply to Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Ezekiel on May 4, 2008, at 1:57:10
They stopped making amineptine several years ago and as far as I know it is not available anywhere on the planet. As far as I am aware, I believe the primary reason it was discontinued was due to addiction and abuse concerns. I mean, here was a drug that could actually make people feel better, so no, no, no, can't have that. In the meantime, drugs like oxycodone, hydrocodone, benzodiazepines, and amphetamine...which all have characteristics of abuse and addiction...are alive and well. I don't know why amineptine had a bullseye on its back.
Posted by undopaminergic on May 4, 2008, at 22:49:17
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by bleauberry on May 4, 2008, at 14:32:55
> They stopped making amineptine several years ago and as far as I know it is not available anywhere on the planet. As far as I am aware, I believe the primary reason it was discontinued was due to addiction and abuse concerns. I mean, here was a drug that could actually make people feel better, so no, no, no, can't have that. In the meantime, drugs like oxycodone, hydrocodone, benzodiazepines, and amphetamine...which all have characteristics of abuse and addiction...are alive and well. I don't know why amineptine had a bullseye on its back.
>Yes, I think the main reason why it was discontinued was its reputation of having abuse and addiction potential. There were also a few cases of amineptine-related acne reported.
I suspect the reason for the extinction of amineptine, specifically, in contrast to amphetamines for instance, is that amineptine was marketed as an antidepressant, and antidepressants with abuse potential are simply not politically correct. For comparison, the use of addictive drugs for conditions such as narcolepsy, ADHD, and chronic pain is generally acceptable.
Posted by Sigismund on May 5, 2008, at 2:58:00
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by undopaminergic on May 4, 2008, at 22:49:17
>antidepressants with abuse potential are simply not politically correct
That seems to be the rule, proved by the uneasy exception of Parnate.
But why do you think that is so?
To discourage malingering?
Posted by undopaminergic on May 5, 2008, at 10:08:21
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct? » undopaminergic, posted by Sigismund on May 5, 2008, at 2:58:00
> >antidepressants with abuse potential are simply not politically correct
>
> That seems to be the rule, proved by the uneasy exception of Parnate.
>It's quite likely that "augmentation with stimulants" will already have been tried by the time Parnate is seriously considered, so I don't think counts as a real example of an addictive antidepressant.
> But why do you think that is so?
I don't have a good explanation. However, the availability of so many other antidepressants that are perceived as effective probably contributes. For contrast, in the case of ADHD, the stimulants are considered the gold standard.
> To discourage malingering?
Yes, but that still doesn't explain why depression is singled out - malingering is hardly more of an issue in depression than it is in the case of ADHD or chronic pain, for instance.
Posted by Ezekiel on May 5, 2008, at 15:55:50
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by undopaminergic on May 5, 2008, at 10:08:21
Thnanks for the replys everyone - I located a survector supplier in the US who is loosely associated with David Pearce at this site: http://www.hedweb.com/hedethic/tabconhi.htm It is expensive, $285 for a 1 month supply.
I'm considering purchasing a 1 week supply which the seller allows so you can test whether it will work for you, the mechanism of action via amineptine is purported to exert an AD effect that rapidly. This claim is supported by what I've been reading as I've researched amineptine - I think it's worth a shot, what do you knowledgeable folks out there think?
Posted by bleauberry on May 5, 2008, at 19:09:40
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Ezekiel on May 5, 2008, at 15:55:50
> Thnanks for the replys everyone - I located a survector supplier in the US who is loosely associated with David Pearce at this site: http://www.hedweb.com/hedethic/tabconhi.htm It is expensive, $285 for a 1 month supply.
Really! I am astonished. I thought I was a good web searcher. I couldn't fine amineptine anywhere. And it's in the US? That is just hard to believe. I don't doubt it, but I would believe it a lot more when you actually get it in the mailbox. If it is true, somebody must have stashed a large amount away to sell. And if true, what they are doing is quite illegal. Hope it works out and nobody gets ripped off or gets in trouble. Let us know how it turns out.
>
> I'm considering purchasing a 1 week supply which the seller allows so you can test whether it will work for you, the mechanism of action via amineptine is purported to exert an AD effect that rapidly. This claim is supported by what I've been reading as I've researched amineptine - I think it's worth a shot, what do you knowledgeable folks out there think?
Posted by undopaminergic on May 6, 2008, at 22:15:49
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Ezekiel on May 5, 2008, at 15:55:50
> Thnanks for the replys everyone - I located a survector supplier in the US who is loosely associated with David Pearce at this site: http://www.hedweb.com/hedethic/tabconhi.htm It is expensive, $285 for a 1 month supply.
>I know that DP has personally used amineptine extensively, but I don't think he has any affiliation with the supposed amineptine supplier other than publishing contact details.
> I'm considering purchasing a 1 week supply which the seller allows so you can test whether it will work for you, the mechanism of action via amineptine is purported to exert an AD effect that rapidly. This claim is supported by what I've been reading as I've researched amineptine - I think it's worth a shot, what do you knowledgeable folks out there think?
>Yes, amineptine has a rapid onset of action. At $285 a month, it's certainly not a cost-effective solution, however.
Posted by eric wagner on May 7, 2008, at 19:47:06
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by undopaminergic on May 6, 2008, at 22:15:49
has anyone bought? &/or tried?
Posted by Ezekiel on May 8, 2008, at 0:01:45
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by undopaminergic on May 6, 2008, at 22:15:49
Undopaminergic - true it's not very cost-effective, but perhaps if one looks at it from a different vantage point, then from there maybe it would not be perceived as such a great financial sacrifice.
What I mean is this, what if one opted to cut back on watching movies, buying CD's, habitually eating out (expensive garbage food), eliminating expensive caffeine consumption (triple starbuck's mochas) etc., then $285 per month may become a more reasonable consideration - what is a life free from the despair of depression worth? Can that be quantified? Most of us choose a car payment that is somewhere in the vicinity of $300 a month, we choose this because we perceive a car to be an indispensable part of how we want to live our lives.
Well, what if someone chose to view their AD regimen in that light, i.e., as something indispensable to the quality of their life? TO ME, paying $285 to liberate myself from intractable & relentless depression is very much worth it, but this assumes the medication(s) proved effective.
I think it really reduces to what we as individuals value in this brief span of time we call life, e.g., if one highly values impressing other people, then spending $285 on medication will be seen as excessive, and perhaps even WASTEFUL, since one could have spent that money on expensive clothes or a nicer car to fulfill this personal need - our value judgments largely determine our thoughts & behavior I believe . . . Zeke
Posted by aaaaalex on May 8, 2008, at 2:02:41
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Ezekiel on May 5, 2008, at 15:55:50
Most of the amineptine available is in "research chemical" form, which is not something I personally would care to ingest. It's not impossible that someone horded large amounts of Survector, but since the availability is so low and only from dubious sources, it doesn't seem like a good idea. Even if it worked wonders, there's no guarantee that you'd be able to obtain it in the future.
Also, while Pearce's info can be very useful, his views are fairly extreme, and his information often disagrees with my personal experience - for example, SSRIs work fairly well for me, and I disagree with his blanket categorization of some drugs as "pro-sexual". Take it with a grain of salt.
Posted by undopaminergic on May 8, 2008, at 6:52:20
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Ezekiel on May 8, 2008, at 0:01:45
> Undopaminergic - true it's not very cost-effective, but perhaps if one looks at it from a different vantage point, then from there maybe it would not be perceived as such a great financial sacrifice.
>
> Well, what if someone chose to view their AD regimen in that light, i.e., as something indispensable to the quality of their life? TO ME, paying $285 to liberate myself from intractable & relentless depression is very much worth it, but this assumes the medication(s) proved effective.
>I agree that an effective antidepressant - or anything else that drastically enhances one's health or capabilites - is well worth paying for. My point was that there are almost certainly more cost-effective alternatives to amineptine at the price quoted.
Posted by Phaedrus D on May 8, 2008, at 9:50:58
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Ezekiel on May 5, 2008, at 15:55:50
I just put in an order for a full months supply from the only source available. He plainly states that it is a research chemical and is custom synthesized by a chemical supply company to greater than 97% purity. Well, since no pharma company produces Survector anymore, this is what were left with. Im willing to roll the dice and try some because, simply put, I cant live like this anymore. I can get decent symptomatic improvement of my Sluggish Cognitive Tempo with poly-drug therapy (parnate, adderall, provigil, etc) but I have horrible insomnia and these meds cut my sleep time down to a few hors a night. Im hoping that the survector will confer an efficacious treatment modality for my SCT.
Posted by okydoky on May 8, 2008, at 13:05:55
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Ezekiel on May 8, 2008, at 0:01:45
> Undopaminergic - true it's not very cost-effective, but perhaps if one looks at it from a different vantage point, then from there maybe it would not be perceived as such a great financial sacrifice.
>
> What I mean is this, what if one opted to cut back on watching movies, buying CD's, habitually eating out (expensive garbage food), eliminating expensive caffeine consumption (triple starbuck's mochas) etc., then $285 per month may become a more reasonable consideration - what is a life free from the despair of depression worth? Can that be quantified? Most of us choose a car payment that is somewhere in the vicinity of $300 a month, we choose this because we perceive a car to be an indispensable part of how we want to live our lives.
>
> Well, what if someone chose to view their AD regimen in that light, i.e., as something indispensable to the quality of their life? TO ME, paying $285 to liberate myself from intractable & relentless depression is very much worth it, but this assumes the medication(s) proved effective.
>
> I think it really reduces to what we as individuals value in this brief span of time we call life, e.g., if one highly values impressing other people, then spending $285 on medication will be seen as excessive, and perhaps even WASTEFUL, since one could have spent that money on expensive clothes or a nicer car to fulfill this personal need - our value judgments largely determine our thoughts & behavior I believe . . . Zeke
I find it astonishing that people I know will spend large amounts of money on items like clothing or expensive cars or simply being part of the disposable society. For example, throwing away perfectly good furniture to replace it with a newer version. One person I know needed a new washer and disposed of her dryer because she insisted they had to match. The same person fights with her insurance company for trivial medications sometimes other times expensive ones but suffers without these that could possibly have a tremendous effect on her quality of life. People don't seem to understand that things do not improve the quality of ones life most especially if depressed when you cannot enjoy or appreciate them. Quality or quantity. Most in this country no matter what the content will opt for quantity. They are used to things being disposable so buy cheap and often. Unfortunately life is not a disposable commodity!
Posted by okydoky on May 8, 2008, at 13:07:41
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Phaedrus D on May 8, 2008, at 9:50:58
> I just put in an order for a full months supply from the only source available. He plainly states that it is a research chemical and is custom synthesized by a chemical supply company to greater than 97% purity. Well, since no pharma company produces Survector anymore, this is what were left with. Im willing to roll the dice and try some because, simply put, I cant live like this anymore. I can get decent symptomatic improvement of my Sluggish Cognitive Tempo with poly-drug therapy (parnate, adderall, provigil, etc) but I have horrible insomnia and these meds cut my sleep time down to a few hors a night. Im hoping that the survector will confer an efficacious treatment modality for my SCT.
I am also currently trying amineptine again. Could you keep me or us informed as to how you do on it?Thanks,
okydoky
Posted by undopaminergic on May 8, 2008, at 13:17:44
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by okydoky on May 8, 2008, at 13:07:41
>
> I am also currently trying amineptine again. Could you keep me or us informed as to how you do on it?
>It would be interesting if you could elaborate on your experience with amineptine - especially (but not limited to) how it compares to closely related drugs such as tianeptine (structurally similar), methylphenidate and amphetamine (pharmacodynamically related).
Posted by eric wagner on May 9, 2008, at 11:09:55
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Phaedrus D on May 8, 2008, at 9:50:58
Phaedrus D,
please post how much you paid, your payment method, when you recieve it & how it feelsi am seriously considering the same option
thanks
eric m. wagner
Posted by Quintal on May 9, 2008, at 16:36:12
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Phaedrus D on May 8, 2008, at 9:50:58
> I just put in an order for a full months supply from the only source available. He plainly states that it is a research chemical and is custom synthesized by a chemical supply company to greater than 97% purity. Well, since no pharma company produces Survector anymore, this is what were left with.
I get pure GHB powder direct from a pharmaceutical company in Ireland. Beats the crap out of Xyrem price-wise. I can't believe how much that drug costs on precription.
The amineptine is probably still good quality stuff even though it's produced as a research chemical. Afterall it wouldn't be used for research unless it was reliable.
Q
Posted by okydoky on May 9, 2008, at 16:52:09
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Quintal on May 9, 2008, at 16:36:12
"The amineptine is probably still good quality stuff even though it's produced as a research chemical. Afterall it wouldn't be used for research unless it was reliable."
Seriously!!!
Not denying the quality in any way but the stuff is off the market. There is no research!
Posted by okydoky on May 9, 2008, at 17:32:59
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Phaedrus D on May 8, 2008, at 9:50:58
To Phaedrus D
I believe I reived a post form you and somehow lost it? I did not reply as I had to think about what you had inquired about.
Sorry
Posted by Quintal on May 9, 2008, at 17:39:19
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by okydoky on May 9, 2008, at 16:52:09
>Not denying the quality in any way but the stuff is off the market. There is no research!
Loads of psychoactive drugs are used in research labs that never will/never did see the light of day on the commercial market.
Q
Posted by undopaminergic on May 9, 2008, at 19:07:52
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by Quintal on May 9, 2008, at 16:36:12
> > I just put in an order for a full months supply from the only source available. He plainly states that it is a research chemical and is custom synthesized by a chemical supply company to greater than 97% purity. Well, since no pharma company produces Survector anymore, this is what were left with.
>
> I get pure GHB powder direct from a pharmaceutical company in Ireland. Beats the crap out of Xyrem price-wise. I can't believe how much that drug costs on precription.
>
> The amineptine is probably still good quality stuff even though it's produced as a research chemical. Afterall it wouldn't be used for research unless it was reliable.
>Indeed, ordering pure chemicals can be even more reliable than finished pills or capsules. Many chemical products are certified 99%+ pure, whereas tablets and capsules are virtually always diluted with excipients such as talc and lactose.
Posted by okydoky on May 9, 2008, at 19:10:58
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct? » okydoky, posted by Quintal on May 9, 2008, at 17:39:19
Posted by okydoky on May 10, 2008, at 13:09:17
In reply to Re: Is amineptine (survector) totally extinct?, posted by undopaminergic on May 9, 2008, at 19:07:52
I am reminded that I have heavily relied upon this site to gain insight, knowledge and perhaps hope from both other peoples experiences and their willingness both to share in them and to interact with others, like myself, who perhaps have more questions than answers. People have been kind and patient here in interacting with me so that I may be able to make more informed decisions with regard to medications for my depression.
I am not so eloquent a writer nor do I have the depth of knowledge that many on this site seem to have. With all this in mind I thought it requisite to post some about my experience with amineptine.
I have had several trials on it. Starting I believe in 2005. Each time seems to be different. If you want to look up what I have previously posted the name is iris2. Recently in February I did a week trial and within two days felt more energized. I stopped taking my usual Ritalin 20mg in the morning. I felt significantly less depressed in that weeks time and noticed less sensation of pain from other ailments.
I ordered a months worth based on this and prior experience with the hope that I would get the same response and perhaps more improvement as I would have a longer trial. I was unable to take it the second time. There were so many variables but I thought perhaps the second time I received something different.
I can now say 5 days into this trial with certainty that the problems I had were not due to the medication itself but to my preexisting illness.
This time I felt some improvement the first two days and on the third day felt more lethargic and had to start taking the Ritalin again. I can only report that this time I see no improvement. I have increased the dose to 200mg a day starting yesterday. Strangely I am feeling more lethargic and tired as I did the second time when I had to stop because of other problems but I thought it was due to pain then.
If anyone has specific questions post them here or babble me. Else I will be needlesly wordy! I plan on continuing this trial for another week or more. I do not want to stop short and always have a nagging question in the back of my head that I never gave it a chance.
I would appreciate it very much if others would post their experiences with amineptine. It will help me and others assess their response to the medication and help others decide if this is a course of treatment for them.
Thanks
Oky
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