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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sdb on January 24, 2008, at 17:27:23
to share some knowledge...quite a long time ago I did a self-experiment to find out more about benzodiazepines, gaba and its effects et cetera. I did two tests consisting of 100 questions (memorizing things, understanding, easy math). Both similar standard tests with different questions. The first time I did
the test with nothing but water, the second time I took 3mg clonazepam before. Interestingly I scored approximately at the same level. The big difference was that I had to give me a kick after every third question under clonazepam. I had to control myself thus to control not to be lazy. My conclusion was that benzos (clonazepam) do not affect mental clarity in such a big manner than normally believed if taken <once> but cause sedation. Bad results of different performances might be due to much sedation. Clearly, that was only a one time one person experiment.warm regards
sdb
Posted by mav27 on January 24, 2008, at 18:24:30
In reply to benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by sdb on January 24, 2008, at 17:27:23
Ive been on clonazepam for 4 weeks and if anything it has improved mental clarity.
Posted by Phillipa on January 24, 2008, at 20:35:19
In reply to Re: benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by mav27 on January 24, 2008, at 18:24:30
Oh I know for me in the 70's I became so much more productive and felt so much better on valium. Now 35years later not the same tolerance I guess but still can think clearly as when very anxious can't think at all just act. Love Phillipa
Posted by Glydin on January 24, 2008, at 21:43:06
In reply to Re: benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by mav27 on January 24, 2008, at 18:24:30
The worse problem I experienced when I routinely took Klonopin was word amnesia in conversations.
I do think anxiety symptoms can very much mess with attention and focus (there's a "duh" comment) therefore treating and controlling those stumbling blocks can improve functioning.
Posted by ny2bk on January 24, 2008, at 22:00:28
In reply to Re: benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by Glydin on January 24, 2008, at 21:43:06
> The worse problem I experienced when I routinely took Klonopin was word amnesia in conversations.
>
> I do think anxiety symptoms can very much mess with attention and focus (there's a "duh" comment) therefore treating and controlling those stumbling blocks can improve functioning.I agree and read a lot about this,if a benzo dose,notably klonopin is kept at a reasonable anxiety dosage via indvidual,it is very likly that the person can have better cognitive functions under slight sedation then having severe anxiety which is just rampid firing of cells which is also said to lead to cell death.
I hear these large amounts of klonopin being mentioned,and far from me to question ones therputic window,however i will say that klonopin if not making one depressed as is one issue,but instead works,then a daytime dose assuming one has slept should not cause any severe sedation,ive been on it 5 years,and with a weight increase of over a hundred pounds,yess i lift weights lol,as well as worsening condtions over all,klonopin actualy has not notably changed in dose,aside from i use it daily now opposed to as needed.
If your dose is sedating you,id see if a lower dose can offer anxiety relieaf,a anxiety reducing dose should not cause a great deal of sedation consisently,perhaps at the start,or with reason,but if not the case,i might look into it not being the benzo for you and seek possably a different one or some other form of adjustment.
Sometimes people have less anxiety with klonopin when a stimulant such as caffiene is used to balance out,the brains very complex.
Posted by yxibow on January 25, 2008, at 1:49:42
In reply to Re: benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by ny2bk on January 24, 2008, at 22:00:28
> > The worse problem I experienced when I routinely took Klonopin was word amnesia in conversations.
Benzodiazepines in their nature have an amnesic quality -- just depends on the individual.
> > I do think anxiety symptoms can very much mess with attention and focus (there's a "duh" comment) therefore treating and controlling those stumbling blocks can improve functioning.
>
> I agree and read a lot about this,if a benzo dose,notably klonopin is kept at a reasonable anxiety dosage via indvidual,it is very likly that the person can have better cognitive functions under slight sedation then having severe anxiety which is just rampid firing of cells which is also said to lead to cell death.
>
> I hear these large amounts of klonopin being mentioned,and far from me to question ones therputic window,however i will say that klonopin if not making one depressed as is one issue,but instead works,then a daytime dose assuming one has slept should not cause any severe sedation,ive been on it 5 years,and with a weight increase of over a hundred pounds,yess i lift weights lol,as well as worsening condtions over all,klonopin actualy has not notably changed in dose,aside from i use it daily now opposed to as needed.
>
> If your dose is sedating you,id see if a lower dose can offer anxiety relieaf,a anxiety reducing dose should not cause a great deal of sedation consisently,perhaps at the start,or with reason,but if not the case,i might look into it not being the benzo for you and seek possably a different one or some other form of adjustment.
>
> Sometimes people have less anxiety with klonopin when a stimulant such as caffiene is used to balance out,the brains very complex.
Klonopin (or any benzodiazepine) with caffeine is like chasing rainbows. It sort of defeats the purpose of dulling anxiety. (pot calling the kettle black I've done it too, but my medication regime is extremely complex and its unclear which is contributing to sedation).
Posted by ny2bk on January 25, 2008, at 8:21:08
In reply to Re: benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity » ny2bk, posted by yxibow on January 25, 2008, at 1:49:42
>
> Klonopin (or any benzodiazepine) with caffeine is like chasing rainbows. It sort of defeats the purpose of dulling anxiety. (pot calling the kettle black I've done it too, but my medication regime is extremely complex and its unclear which is contributing to sedation).Caffiene has been recomended by many sites on assiting with medication sedation.Im not saying to go and gulp down mgs of it,however in small increments it can help with the sedation without ruining the benifit,i.e sipping a moutain dew.
Caffiene actualy has a lot of postive actions,aside from its main fault which is a strong stimulant and obviously one that does not help many here.
So what i mean to say is if there is minor sedation with a anxiety med working,mainly a benzo,caffiene from two sites on anxiety i know of recomends the use of low dose caffiene or modfanil to aid in counter productive sedation.
However you know your body,and you know if its simply too much sedation for the benifit your getting,just putting a suggestion out,however as i always say stay and start small with all adjustments and listen to your body,and um your doc,i know my body usualy steers me out of trouble i learned this the hard way,no doc or atricle,ot statistic will know how my milage on my body runs,i wish you well.
Posted by sdb on January 25, 2008, at 15:03:39
In reply to Re: benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by ny2bk on January 25, 2008, at 8:21:08
I have never done the same test with other benzos. I don't know if these results are a clonazepam phenomena only.
Posted by bonbon on January 27, 2008, at 20:40:16
In reply to benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by sdb on January 24, 2008, at 17:27:23
Klonopin makes me stupid. It's something that I've learned to live with and I've been adjusting the dosage for (gasp) about 15 years. On higher doses I skip letters and words while writing, even missing letters in my signature. The grasping for words is out of control at high doses. Then i'll bring it down until I feel that I can function intellectuall, and stay there until the anxiety sends me back up. It's a nasty cycle, but I can live with it b/c I don't seem able to live without the Klonopin. Another interesting thing I've noticed is that Klonopin even makes me physically stupid. I was having problems snowboarding last year (I'm a veteran rider, many years, but not very good!) and my pdoc suggested cutting back the Klonopin. It worked. Drugs are bizarre.
Bonbon
Posted by ny2bk on January 28, 2008, at 8:37:42
In reply to Re: benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by bonbon on January 27, 2008, at 20:40:16
> Klonopin makes me stupid. It's something that I've learned to live with and I've been adjusting the dosage for (gasp) about 15 years. On higher doses I skip letters and words while writing, even missing letters in my signature. The grasping for words is out of control at high doses. Then i'll bring it down until I feel that I can function intellectuall, and stay there until the anxiety sends me back up. It's a nasty cycle, but I can live with it b/c I don't seem able to live without the Klonopin. Another interesting thing I've noticed is that Klonopin even makes me physically stupid. I was having problems snowboarding last year (I'm a veteran rider, many years, but not very good!) and my pdoc suggested cutting back the Klonopin. It worked. Drugs are bizarre.
> BonbonYou got it,they are double edged swords,we need their tape effect to function,however it goes aganist what our bodies are built to do,which is protect us from foreign substances,so on one hand we want it to work and be effective,on the other hand we need our bodies to keep many toxic substance out or wed be a total mess,seems unless we actualy start creating "medication" that we have some scientific belief we are actualing treating something wrong specificaly,we are doomed to live out these unwanted side effects and med "poop outs"
Sorry u had such a bad responce with it,glad to hear u still at least snow board regardless and not letting it overcome your life.
Posted by sdb on February 4, 2008, at 17:11:23
In reply to benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by sdb on January 24, 2008, at 17:27:23
> to share some knowledge...quite a long time ago I did a self-experiment to find out more about benzodiazepines, gaba and its effects et cetera. I did two tests consisting of 100 questions (memorizing things, understanding, easy math). Both similar standard tests with different questions. The first time I did
> the test with nothing but water, the second time I took 3mg clonazepam before. Interestingly I scored approximately at the same level. The big difference was that I had to give me a kick after every third question under clonazepam. I had to control myself thus to control not to be lazy. My conclusion was that benzos (clonazepam) do not affect mental clarity in such a big manner than normally believed if taken <once> but cause sedation. Bad results of different performances might be due to much sedation. Clearly, that was only a one time one person experiment.
>
> warm regards
>
> sdbself-control, what about self-cultivation?
Posted by Molybdenum on February 5, 2008, at 3:21:29
In reply to benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by sdb on January 24, 2008, at 17:27:23
I used to take every benzo under the sun when I was about 17 through to 19. I don't know how I even finished high school. They used to turn my memory to mush. My friends (the few I now have) said that they remember they used to have conversations with me about stuff and I couldn't recall any of it the next day. It pissed them off apparently. Hmm....
Funny - I remember being prescribed flunitrazepam (Rohypnol) to help me sleep. Used to knock me out for 24 hrs. But it was the BEST thing to take coming down off speed.
Now I believe it's more widely known for it's ability to help you make new friends at bars....(sic). Talk about knock-out pills...!
Hence I can't see how benzos would help you concentrate. Amphetamines and methlphenidate for sure and maybe the anti-depressants but I'd never take benzos before an exam. Unless of course you knew you were going to flunk it & wanted to make the experience as enjoyable as possible (??)
Maybe you should try to do some different tests. Like the MENSA entry tests, etc.
Posted by sdb on February 6, 2008, at 16:17:14
In reply to Re: benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by Molybdenum on February 5, 2008, at 3:21:29
Unless of course you knew you were going to flunk it & wanted to make the experience as enjoyable as possible (??)
>
> Maybe you should try to do some different tests. Like the MENSA entry tests, etc.flunk - no. I took two bananas before a performance, probably this was the trick to be the best one this time.
Posted by Molybdenum on February 7, 2008, at 4:08:11
In reply to Re: benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by sdb on February 6, 2008, at 16:17:14
> Unless of course you knew you were going to flunk it & wanted to make the experience as enjoyable as possible (??)
> >
> > Maybe you should try to do some different tests. Like the MENSA entry tests, etc.
>
> flunk - no. I took two bananas before a performance, probably this was the trick to be the best one this time.
>hehehehe....well maybe the bananas did the trick...!
I suppose if you were anxious, then the benzos might help you focus a bit.
I did an IT course last year & I was not sleeping well & on the final day we had to do a $200 exam & get 75% to get the certificate. The course was SO BORING (ITIL) - if you don't know what ITIL is then please, please don't look it up. You're better off not knowing.
Anyway, I took a few 10mg Ritalin in the morning & just before the test. I "did" pass but I think your body chemistry has to be in just the right mode in order to really benefit mentally from stimulants. Otherwise (at least for me) it just feels like my brain's a freight train going down a mountain with the brakes all melted. eeeeekkkkk..!
I understand that soldiers have been given them to keep them awake for a few days. I think even for a young "fit" person, they're dangerous for any important activity though. And I sure wouldn't want to walk up to the guy with the M16 & say *boo* after his been on 72hrs of Ritalin :)
Maybe your experience of heightened alertness on the benzos is some sort of idiosyncratic reaction. I remember taking a handful of Trifluoperazine (Stelazine) when I was 16 (just bored). Anyway, instead of knocking me out, it made my whole body go into muscle spasms. I couldn't bring my neck down and I was having trouble breathing.
Lesson 1 I learned: don't do this at your parents house when you're 16.
They rang an ambulance & you can imagine the drill.....
Maybe try smoking the stringy bits on the bananas. I think they're supposed to have a little bit of bufotenine - like the skins of some frogs - a bit like psilocybin.
Good Luck - it sounds like an interesting experiment....!
Posted by sdb on February 7, 2008, at 10:53:20
In reply to Re: benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by Molybdenum on February 7, 2008, at 4:08:11
> > Unless of course you knew you were going to flunk it & wanted to make the experience as enjoyable as possible (??)
> > >
> > > Maybe you should try to do some different tests. Like the MENSA entry tests, etc.
> >
> > flunk - no. I took two bananas before a performance, probably this was the trick to be the best one this time.
> >
>
> hehehehe....well maybe the bananas did the trick...!
>
> I suppose if you were anxious, then the benzos might help you focus a bit.
>
> I did an IT course last year & I was not sleeping well & on the final day we had to do a $200 exam & get 75% to get the certificate. The course was SO BORING (ITIL) - if you don't know what ITIL is then please, please don't look it up. You're better off not knowing.
>
> Anyway, I took a few 10mg Ritalin in the morning & just before the test. I "did" pass but I think your body chemistry has to be in just the right mode in order to really benefit mentally from stimulants. Otherwise (at least for me) it just feels like my brain's a freight train going down a mountain with the brakes all melted. eeeeekkkkk..!
>
> I understand that soldiers have been given them to keep them awake for a few days. I think even for a young "fit" person, they're dangerous for any important activity though. And I sure wouldn't want to walk up to the guy with the M16 & say *boo* after his been on 72hrs of Ritalin :)
>
> Maybe your experience of heightened alertness on the benzos is some sort of idiosyncratic reaction. I remember taking a handful of Trifluoperazine (Stelazine) when I was 16 (just bored). Anyway, instead of knocking me out, it made my whole body go into muscle spasms. I couldn't bring my neck down and I was having trouble breathing.
>
> Lesson 1 I learned: don't do this at your parents house when you're 16.
>
> They rang an ambulance & you can imagine the drill.....
>
> Maybe try smoking the stringy bits on the bananas. I think they're supposed to have a little bit of bufotenine - like the skins of some frogs - a bit like psilocybin.
>
> Good Luck - it sounds like an interesting experiment....!thanks! I am glad bananas can work. I still have bananas. One problem is that you can't store bananas for a longer time. I have never taken any stimulant.
warm regards
sdb
Posted by Tony P on February 7, 2008, at 16:35:44
In reply to Re: benzodiazepines (clonazepam) - mental clarity, posted by sdb on February 7, 2008, at 10:53:20
I find clonazepam more mind-dulling than other benzos (but it's also said to be safer in terms of tolerance/addiction). I've noticed the "can't find the word" effect a lot, although that's also partly due I believe to the Robaxin I am currnetly taking in large doses (cutting back gradually at present, hopefully to zero soon).
Ativan was much less dulling, even mood brightening. But most docs won't prescribe it long-term.
I don't know about this banana thing, I tried smoking 'em in the sixties (just the peels <g>) and never got off. But I'm a strong fan of _moderate_ amounts of coffee combined with clonazepam or other benzos. They don't really just counteract each other, there is definitely a synergistic enhancement effect. I also tried Ritalin plus Valium in the 70's but that was more in the nature of a home-made high - too hypomanic to be safe.
I understand coffee increases dopamine levels (which I am becoming a firm believer in as an essential component of balanced A-D therapy), as well as its straight stimulant effects. So 2 shots of espresso on getting up has essentially become part of my meds. regime!
Tony
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