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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Quintal on April 22, 2007, at 16:58:23
I've been doing very well on this combo over the last few weeks and I seem to be getting better every day.
My full regimen is:
Tianeptine 12.5mg t.d.s.
Nicergoline 5mg b.d. (morning and night).
L-Tyrosine 500mg in the morning.
Agnus Castus 400mg (powdered fruits) b.d (morning and night).
Valerian Extract 300mg (equivalent to 1500mg Valerian root) at night.
Melatonin 9mg at night.
Paramol 7.46mg dihydrocodeine/500mg paracetamol, two tablets at night.
Nurofen Plus 12.8mg codeine/200mg ibuprofen, two tablets at night.My codeine use has decreased from four times daily to once at night. Since starting nicergoline I've found it makes me feel too tired and spaced out (and sometimes a little queasy) during the day. I actually feel better during the day for reducing the dose, but at night it helps me sleep peacefully. I'm not sure whether this is from nicergoline potentiating the effects of codeine (but hopefully not the paracetamol and ibuprofen :-), or simply that I no longer feel the benefit of the mood elevating effects vs. side effects now that I'm happy all the time?
I've also been doing a lot of exercise - up to five miles a day with my dogs, and of course the weather has improved and I actually have a tan for the first time in years (though I usually find the summer months the most depressing - bad hayfever, which has yet to make an appearance incidentally). Exercise has never been useful for me as a tool to actually lift my mood when I'm down, it often feels like masochism, but it does seem useful in maintaining a remission once the depression has lifted, and I usually find myself getting out more anyway once I'm feeling better.
My anxiety is now under control, and that isn't entirely down to the meds - I've been getting out more and forcing myself past barriers of fear, and usually they've dissolved (not gone away, but they're now permeable rather than the brick walls I'd made them by avoidance).
I'd like more info on nicergoline as the usual sources are a little sparing in detail. It certainly seems to be a peripheral vasodilator as some sources suggest - my hands and toes get very warm within half and hour of taking a dose.
Q
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2007, at 17:51:14
In reply to Tianeptine + Nicergoline = Remission (For Me!), posted by Quintal on April 22, 2007, at 16:58:23
Whats nicergoline ?
Linkadge
Posted by Quintal on April 22, 2007, at 18:04:23
In reply to Re: Tianeptine + Nicergoline = Remission (For Me!), posted by linkadge on April 22, 2007, at 17:51:14
Nicergoline is an ergoloid mesylate derivative used to treat senile dementia and other disorders with vascular origins. It has been found to increase mental agility and enhance clarity and perception. It decreases vascular resistance and increases arterial blood flow in the brain, improving the utilization of oxygen and glucose by brain cells. It has similar vasoactive properties in other areas of the body, particularly the lungs.
It is used for vascular disorders such as cerebral thrombosis and atherosclerosis, arterial blockages in the limbs, Raynaud's disease, vascular migraines, and retinopathy.
It is marketed under the trade name Sermion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicergoline
__________________________________________________Properties
Sermion (nicergoline) is a vasoactive pharmaceutical product, synthesized in Farmitalia research laboratories, with alpha-adrenolytic action to activate the brain's metabolism. Sermion (nicergoline) acts on different levels:
On the cerebral level, it prompts a lowering of vascular resistance, an increase in arterial flow and the use of oxygen and glucose. In terms of lung circulation, it lowers vascular resistance. With regard to limb circulation, it brings about an increase in the flow, particularly evident in those patients with insufficient irrigation due to functional arteriopathies.
Studies carried out in vitro and in vivo, both experimental and on human beings, have shown that Sermion (nicergoline) inhibits platelet aggregation. Sermion (nicergoline) has proved to be effective in hospital use, regulating and improving brain disorders caused by metabolic-vascular insufficiency and alterations derived from insufficient arterial irrigation in the limbs. When the therapeutic dosage is administered, Sermion (nicergoline) does not affect arterial tension. In the case of patients suffering from hypertension, it may induce a gradual lowering of tension.
This pharmaceutical product does not induce vomiting.
Indications
Acute and chronic cerebral metabolic-vascular disorders (cerebral arteriosclerosis, thrombosis and cerebral embolism, transitory cerebral ischaemia). Acute and chronic peripheral metabolic-vascular disorders (organic and functional arteriopathies of the limbs), Raynaud's disease and other syndromes caused by altered peripheral irrigation.
Migraines of vascular origin
Coadjutant therapy in clinical situations accompanied by platelet hyper-aggregability, arterial tension
Corio-retinal vascular disorders: retinal thromboses, diabetic retinopathy, macular degeneration and retinal angiosclerosis Oto-vestibular problems of a vascular nature: dizziness, auditory hallucinations, hypoacusis.
Dosage
By mouth: 5-10 mg (1-2 tablets or 20-40 drops) 3 times daily at regular intervals over prolonged periods of time. To facilitate absorption, take this medicine between meals.
The dosage and length of treatment are to be decided by your doctor. At times, the therapeutic effects of Sermion (nicergoline), both subjective and objective, are not immediately noticeable, but will be noted after a certain period of treatment.
__________________________________________________That's about all I can get on it. I'm wondering what the "alpha-adrenolytic action to activate the brain's metabolism" bit means? I've read elsewhere that nicergoline is an alpha-adrenergic neurone blocker, but I don't fully understand what this means to be honest. Does that mean it's an 'alpha-blocker'?
Q
Posted by Declan on April 22, 2007, at 18:24:25
In reply to Re: Tianeptine + Nicergoline = Remission (For Me!) » linkadge, posted by Quintal on April 22, 2007, at 18:04:23
I wonder if Nicergoline is at all like Hydergine?
Posted by Quintal on April 22, 2007, at 18:30:17
In reply to Re: Tianeptine + Nicergoline = Remission (For Me!), posted by Declan on April 22, 2007, at 18:24:25
__________________________________________________
NICERGOLINE (Sermion®)Nicergoline is an ergoloid mesylate derivative that is currently being used in the battle to treat senile dementia. Interestingly it has been found to improve mental agility through enhancing clarity and perception.
*In this instance it is different to the effects of Hydergine* - (which improves oxygen stability, increases mental ability - i.e. it extends the period of useful mental workload, and has been designated as an I.Q. booster with its brain dendrite stimulation).
Nicergoline on the other hand appears to enhance clarity, perception and clear thought.
Dosages for the treatment of senile dementia have been as high as 30mg to 60mg daily, however treatment and protection from ARMD would normally indicate 5mg once, twice or three times daily. Like nearly all nootropics, nicergoline has been shown in clinical trials to be safe when used respectfully.
__________________________________________________I can't post the link because the site allows online purachsing of nicergoline and other non-FDA approved drugs.
Q
Posted by Declan on April 22, 2007, at 18:40:26
In reply to Re: Tianeptine + Nicergoline = Remission (For Me!) » Declan, posted by Quintal on April 22, 2007, at 18:30:17
Well well, I could do with some of that.
Hydergine had a beneficial effect on my mood.
Posted by Phillipa on April 22, 2007, at 20:05:49
In reply to Clarity, perception and clear thought, posted by Declan on April 22, 2007, at 18:40:26
I'd be careful with anthing doing with arterial blood flow just a thought. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on April 22, 2007, at 20:52:13
In reply to Re: Clarity, perception and clear thought » Declan, posted by Phillipa on April 22, 2007, at 20:05:49
The only reason nicergoline has any effect on arterial blood flow is because it blocks the effect of noradrenaline (which is a vasoconstrictor) on the artery walls AFAIK. It's quite safe Phillipa dear unless you're in the middle of a cerebral haemorrhage, or some other unfortunate brain injury.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on April 22, 2007, at 22:10:31
In reply to Re: Clarity, perception and clear thought » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on April 22, 2007, at 20:52:13
Q hope so wouldn't want to see anything happen to you. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on April 23, 2007, at 0:18:23
In reply to Re: Clarity, perception and clear thought » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on April 22, 2007, at 22:10:31
Of course not, and the same to you Phillipa. Is there any reason the thought of increasing arterial blood flow concerns you so much? - is there some research you found that I should know about?
Q
Posted by Quintal on April 23, 2007, at 3:31:53
In reply to Re: Clarity, perception and clear thought » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on April 23, 2007, at 0:18:23
Mechanism of Action:
Nicergoline acts by inhibiting the postsynaptic alpha(1)-adrenoceptors on vascular smooth muscle. This inhibits the vasoconstrictor effect of circulating and locally released catecholamines (epinephrine and norepinephrine), resulting in peripheral vasodilation. Therefore the mechanism of Nicergoline is to increase vascular circulation in the brain, thereby enhancing the transmission of nerve signals across the nerve fibres, which secrete acetylcholine as a neural transmitter.
http://redpoll.pharmacy.ualberta.ca/drugbank/cgi-bin/getCard.cgi?CARD=APRD00617.txt
Q
Posted by Declan on April 23, 2007, at 15:55:59
In reply to Clarity, perception and clear thought, posted by Declan on April 22, 2007, at 18:40:26
Hey Q
Can you compare it to Hydergine?
Does it keep you awake?
Do you think it might keep me awake?
Does it feel nice, rather than awful?
TIA.
Posted by rod on April 23, 2007, at 19:50:26
In reply to Nicergoline, posted by Declan on April 23, 2007, at 15:55:59
> Hey Q
>
> Can you compare it to Hydergine?
>
> Does it keep you awake?
>
> Do you think it might keep me awake?
>
> Does it feel nice, rather than awful?
>
> TIA.hm i am not Q but.....
Do you mean the Hydergine which active ingredient is "Co-Dergocrinmesilate" (or whatever its called in english... :D )
Well I tried both and Hydergine also made me depressed. It acts like taking an acetylcholineserase inhibitor for me. But Nicergoline is different. At the beginning it made me somewhat drowsy, but later on the stimulating effect overweights. It acts as a crash free stimulant to me. But I am on diffent drugs by now............
just my 2 cents
Posted by Quintal on April 24, 2007, at 3:00:44
In reply to Nicergoline, posted by Declan on April 23, 2007, at 15:55:59
Hi Declan,
I've never taken hydergine so I can't compare it to that. Nicergoline feels something like you'd expect from a drug that blocks noradrenaline - calmness but without the coldness in the extremities you get with beta-blockers, the opposite in fact. I've had moments of complete stillness where all of my senses have become very clear and sharp. I'm calmer than I was on benzos but without the monged-out feeling and fuzzy thinking.
Yes, it feels nice - even my sense of taste and smell seems to have improved! I do find it easier to stay awake and motivated during the day, but it's not an alerting drug like adrafinil. Adding tyrosine seems to have complimented nicergoline perfectly in this sense - I found it gave me insomnia if taken alone. I'm actually sleeping better though thanks to the calmness. It's just easier to fall asleep for some reason.
Q
Posted by Cairo on May 10, 2007, at 21:03:59
In reply to Re: Nicergoline » Declan, posted by Quintal on April 24, 2007, at 3:00:44
I read somewhere that Trental, which decrease blood viscosity, also decreases inflammation. It's an old drug, but supposedly is quite safe. Any comments on how it might be used for psychiatric conditions with brain fog?
Cairo
Posted by kaleidoscope on May 11, 2007, at 14:36:33
In reply to Re: Trental (pentoxifylline), posted by Cairo on May 10, 2007, at 21:03:59
...never heard of Trental being used in psychiatry - can be a useful adjunct in the treatment of chronic venous leg ulcers though!
E
Posted by okydoky on January 20, 2008, at 16:15:43
In reply to Re: Trental (pentoxifylline), posted by kaleidoscope on May 11, 2007, at 14:36:33
I'm just reading through a lot of posts about a couple of drugs I was interested in trying.
A huge problem I now have had for several years is decreased cognitive function (impairment) and was assessed by a neurologist for it. No one seems to know why. The depression, ect.years ago, constant stress on and on.
I was looking at tianeptine specifically because I read about it helping cognitive impairment and memory problems and perhaps even reversing them. But alas I still have the overwhelming depression. Maybe I am better having less memory and sleeping most of the day.
The other option I was looking at was adrafanil. Years ago Parnate was the only AD that helped me. Ritalin helps a little now. Unfortunately I am not intelligent enough or have the cognitive skills to discern what to try now. Most stimulants help but I cannot take them because of another disease so perhaps adrafinil would be a bad choice? I have not read about Nicergoline before. At least I do not remember!!! It looks interesting for several reasons. It might not make good logic but my mother definitely suffers from dementia and most definitely caused at least in part by poor blood flow, she has arterial disease in her legs heart etc. I seem to have a lot of the same symptoms like lack of word retrieval that she does. I also have poor circulation in my extremities. They freeze quite quickly and I get no blood flow.
I am going to try the tianeptine. Just looking ahead at what I will probably need to try next
Posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2008, at 18:47:07
In reply to Re: Trental (pentoxifylline), posted by okydoky on January 20, 2008, at 16:15:43
Renauds? Phillipa
Posted by okydoky on January 20, 2008, at 20:13:27
In reply to Re: Trental (pentoxifylline) » okydoky, posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2008, at 18:47:07
> Renauds? Phillipa
Sorry, Renauds: Word too Cerebral for me. I looked it up
Just saying symptoms. My mother has arterial vascular disease. That is all I know. I dont think her doctors have any idea what is wrong actually.Thanks for the interest though
okydoky
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