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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tapiocamonk on January 5, 2008, at 16:33:47
I've been taking Nardil for about 4 weeks now (I'm posting this on 1/5/08) so I thought I would drop in and report my experiences thus far.
First off, here's my dosing schedule thus far:
12/10/2007........ 15mg (all in the AM)
12/20/2007........ 30mg (all in the AM)
12/24/2007........ 45mg (all in the AM)
12/31/2007........ 60mg (30mg in the AM, 30mg at noon)Effects
So far, I have noticed a slight improvement in my mood. It's nothing major yet, but I'm a bit more optimistic throughout the day and I have noticed a slight decrease in social avoidance. I'm certainly hoping/praying for more of an effect, but I hear that it can take several weeks to kick in and I've only been at 45mg or above for about two weeks.Side Effects
I seem to be a lot more tired during the day, but I'm not yet sure if this is due to the Nardil as I've been sick for the past month and have been on antibiotics for the past 10 days. I have yet to experience the dreaded insomnia that other report and, in fact, I've been sleeping a lot better than usual. Also, no sexual side-effects yet; if anything, an increase in libido. And no weight or appetite problems yet.Questions
I have a few questions that I would appreciate people with Nardil experience weighing in on:1) I've been on 60mg/day since 12/31 (I'm posting this on 1/5) and haven't had any major impact from Nardil yet.
a) How long would you recommend that I stay on this dose before increasing?
b) Should I wait to experience some effects before increasing or should I wait a certain number of days to do it?2) I have been dividing my dose in two, taking 30mg at around 8:00 a.m. and 30mg around noon.
a) Is there any benefit to splitting the dose vs. taking it all at once?
b) Do these seem like good times to take the pills or should I take that second dose later in the day or at bedtime?3) Any comments/questions/advice would be much appreciated.
4) Thanks!!!
Posted by Phoenix1 on January 6, 2008, at 0:06:55
In reply to Nardil: My Experience Thus Far...., posted by tapiocamonk on January 5, 2008, at 16:33:47
> I've been taking Nardil for about 4 weeks now (I'm posting this on 1/5/08) so I thought I would drop in and report my experiences thus far.
>
> First off, here's my dosing schedule thus far:
>
> 12/10/2007........ 15mg (all in the AM)
> 12/20/2007........ 30mg (all in the AM)
> 12/24/2007........ 45mg (all in the AM)
> 12/31/2007........ 60mg (30mg in the AM, 30mg at noon)
>
> Effects
> So far, I have noticed a slight improvement in my mood. It's nothing major yet, but I'm a bit more optimistic throughout the day and I have noticed a slight decrease in social avoidance. I'm certainly hoping/praying for more of an effect, but I hear that it can take several weeks to kick in and I've only been at 45mg or above for about two weeks.
>
> Side Effects
> I seem to be a lot more tired during the day, but I'm not yet sure if this is due to the Nardil as I've been sick for the past month and have been on antibiotics for the past 10 days. I have yet to experience the dreaded insomnia that other report and, in fact, I've been sleeping a lot better than usual. Also, no sexual side-effects yet; if anything, an increase in libido. And no weight or appetite problems yet.
>
> Questions
> I have a few questions that I would appreciate people with Nardil experience weighing in on:
>
> 1) I've been on 60mg/day since 12/31 (I'm posting this on 1/5) and haven't had any major impact from Nardil yet.
> a) How long would you recommend that I stay on this dose before increasing?
> b) Should I wait to experience some effects before increasing or should I wait a certain number of days to do it?
>
> 2) I have been dividing my dose in two, taking 30mg at around 8:00 a.m. and 30mg around noon.
> a) Is there any benefit to splitting the dose vs. taking it all at once?
> b) Do these seem like good times to take the pills or should I take that second dose later in the day or at bedtime?
>
> 3) Any comments/questions/advice would be much appreciated.
>
> 4) Thanks!!!Wow, my respnse was quite different. I'm only uo to 45 mg but have "tried" 60mg today for the hell of it. I noticed an immediate improvement in depressive symptoms. If anything, It give me more daytime energy plus a little physical anxiety. You're dosing strategy is almost exacly what my pdoc has me on, except with shorter duration between increases. The only side effects I've experienced are physical anxiety, insomnia, and some gatrointestinal issues. Oh, and my left eyelid started fluttering, but I'm no convinced that Nardil is the cause. I'm pretty impressed so far. How is your sleep going? If you aren't having problems, maybe move more of the dose laterin the day. Other than that, I'm a Nardil newbie like you, so I don't have much wisdom yet... Sorry.
Phoenix1
Posted by Nardilstarted2007 on January 6, 2008, at 0:56:41
In reply to Re: Nardil: My Experience Thus Far...., posted by Phoenix1 on January 6, 2008, at 0:06:55
Thats sounding pretty good. if you dont get a responce better then that in about a week i would be up to 90 if i were u. 90 works for me but i have much more side effects and did at 75 as well.
side effects
- dreaded insomnia
- stoned feeling
- weak
- put on 10lbs immediately, made me eat at night like crazy
- constipation was bad
- urinary retention
- puffy under my eyes
- I smelled like nardil all over my bodyThat mostly all went away after the 4th week. I started BANG at 75mgs/day because of desperation for it to work quickly. My side effects now are:
- anorgasmia
- puffy under eyes
- and today my head is having the woosh effect like as if i was withdrawling from an ssri.. weird.All and all alot better. social phobia 80% better. I just HATE anorgasmia! You seem lucky this far
Posted by tapiocamonk on January 6, 2008, at 9:15:28
In reply to Re: Nardil: My Experience Thus Far...., posted by Phoenix1 on January 6, 2008, at 0:06:55
> How is your sleep going? If you aren't having problems, maybe move more of the dose laterin the day. Other than that, I'm a Nardil newbie like you, so I don't have much wisdom yet... Sorry.
>
> Phoenix1My sleep has been fine, so far. It's even been a bit better than usual. I'm hoping that this keeps up, but given that everyone else seems to eventually get some pretty severe insomnia, I realize what could be coming. I was on Parnate for a few years which gave me some pretty bad insomnia too.
With Parnate I would get a boost in energy (and blood pressure and irritability) right after taking my dose each day. I haven't noticed any effect right after taking nardil. Can anyone tell me what the usual after-dose effects of nardil are? Does it tend to boost energy or sap it?
thx
Posted by Justherself54 on January 6, 2008, at 10:19:13
In reply to Re: Nardil: My Experience Thus Far...., posted by tapiocamonk on January 6, 2008, at 9:15:28
>
> > How is your sleep going? If you aren't having problems, maybe move more of the dose laterin the day. Other than that, I'm a Nardil newbie like you, so I don't have much wisdom yet... Sorry.
> >
> > Phoenix1
>
> My sleep has been fine, so far. It's even been a bit better than usual. I'm hoping that this keeps up, but given that everyone else seems to eventually get some pretty severe insomnia, I realize what could be coming. I was on Parnate for a few years which gave me some pretty bad insomnia too.
>
> With Parnate I would get a boost in energy (and blood pressure and irritability) right after taking my dose each day. I haven't noticed any effect right after taking nardil. Can anyone tell me what the usual after-dose effects of nardil are? Does it tend to boost energy or sap it?
>
> thx
With parnate I had quite severe hypotension, but not as bad insomnia..Nardil boosts my energy..but for some reason instead of insomnia I slept 10 hours last night..I do have a bad cold..but haven't slept that long for years..hope it's not a bad sign..I played around with my dosage schedule trying to see if it would make a different in sleep but it didn't seem to matter how late I took it, I still had trouble sleeping, except for the 10 hours last nite,,how weird was that..
Posted by tecknohed on January 6, 2008, at 11:38:07
In reply to Nardil: My Experience Thus Far...., posted by tapiocamonk on January 5, 2008, at 16:33:47
I was on Nardil nearly 4 years.
Give 60mg at least another 2 weeks before increasing. For me it kicked in as soon as I hit 60mg at 3 weeks. DONT jump strait to 90mg. If you need to, increase to 75mg 1st.
It sounds like you have social anxiety? Then best to spread the doses out as much as poss. For depression alone once daily is ok but for anxiety you need to spread it out because its Nardil's metabolite that increases GABA, & because Nardil has a very short half life you want that metabolite circulating throughout the day. At 60mg I took 30mg morn, 15mg lunch & 15mg early eve for socializing.
Daytime sedation IS a side effect of Nardil. Normally happens shortly after dosing over 15mg at a time. One way to deal with it is to DO SOMETHING. Keep active. Read, watch TV or browse the Net & you'll fall asleep. Public transport journeys were also a nightmare for me - I'd often ride the train or bus & fall asleep & miss my stop! Solved this by listening to loud music on headphones.
Marplan, another MAOI which I take now also gives me some daytime sedation shortly after dosing but I've solved this with nootropics, the most efficient one being Acetyl-L-Carnitine.I'm afraid that sexual side effects are likely to creep up on you eventually. Its usually the last side effect to appear, normally soon after Nardil really kicks in. But it does go on its own accord after several months. And its usually anorgasmia, not low libido. Marplan has already given me anorgasmia, but I've solved this with a herbal supplement called Horney Goat Weed. Heres a thread I started on it: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20071031/msgs/801401.html
Another poster on here, Darius2535, said that a combo of Cyproheptadine 4mg + Bethanechol 50mg solved his/her anorgasmia from Nardil.
I NEVER had insomnia from Nardil myself. In fact in the long run it increased my hypersomnia I already suffer from (for most of my life).
By the sounds of things you're already on your way to being a Nardil winner! I had what you have - a subtle improvement in socializing & mood almost right from the start. Then for me, within 4 weeks BAM! My personality changed like Nardil had switched some sort of light on. Sounds like you're on that path too. I hope so. Just dont be too hasty. Nardil is a very delicate drug & requires delicate dosing. Be as patient as you can.
Good luck!
teck
Posted by tapiocamonk on January 6, 2008, at 16:37:14
In reply to Re: Nardil: My Experience Thus Far.... » tapiocamonk, posted by tecknohed on January 6, 2008, at 11:38:07
> I was on Nardil nearly 4 years.
>
> Give 60mg at least another 2 weeks before increasing. For me it kicked in as soon as I hit 60mg at 3 weeks. DONT jump strait to 90mg. If you need to, increase to 75mg 1st.I'm going to follow your advice here and wait it out at 60mg before raising.
Question though: I've heard that it takes more Nardil to do the trick since the reformulation by Pfizer; were you on the old formulation or the new and do you think it matters?
>
> It sounds like you have social anxiety? Then best to spread the doses out as much as poss. For depression alone once daily is ok but for anxiety you need to spread it out because its Nardil's metabolite that increases GABA, & because Nardil has a very short half life you want that metabolite circulating throughout the day. At 60mg I took 30mg morn, 15mg lunch & 15mg early eve for socializing.That's very interesting. I hadn't heard any of that before about GABA and the short half life. I'm going to follow your advice here too and spread the dose.
Question: do you think spreading the dose will have any positive or negative effect on daytime sedation and possible insomnia? I think I can deal with the daytime sedation, but I dealt with MAOI insomnia for years on Parnate and am definitely not looking forward to a return of that.
>
> Daytime sedation IS a side effect of Nardil. Normally happens shortly after dosing over 15mg at a time. One way to deal with it is to DO SOMETHING. Keep active. Read, watch TV or browse the Net & you'll fall asleep. Public transport journeys were also a nightmare for me - I'd often ride the train or bus & fall asleep & miss my stop! Solved this by listening to loud music on headphones.
> Marplan, another MAOI which I take now also gives me some daytime sedation shortly after dosing but I've solved this with nootropics, the most efficient one being Acetyl-L-Carnitine.
>
> I'm afraid that sexual side effects are likely to creep up on you eventually. Its usually the last side effect to appear, normally soon after Nardil really kicks in. But it does go on its own accord after several months. And its usually anorgasmia, not low libido.If I had to choose, I would take anorgasmia over low libido any day of the week. I feel like if the Nardil kicks in and I can start behaving like a normal person, getting involved socially and maybe even having a girlfriend and having a sex drive on top of that, I'll just deal with the anorgasmia when it comes up.
>>Marplan has already given me anorgasmia, but I've solved this with a herbal supplement called Horney Goat Weed. Heres a thread I started on it: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20071031/msgs/801401.html
>
> Another poster on here, Darius2535, said that a combo of Cyproheptadine 4mg + Bethanechol 50mg solved his/her anorgasmia from Nardil.
>
> I NEVER had insomnia from Nardil myself. In fact in the long run it increased my hypersomnia I already suffer from (for most of my life).
>
> By the sounds of things you're already on your way to being a Nardil winner! I had what you have - a subtle improvement in socializing & mood almost right from the start. Then for me, within 4 weeks BAM! My personality changed like Nardil had switched some sort of light on. Sounds like you're on that path too. I hope so. Just dont be too hasty. Nardil is a very delicate drug & requires delicate dosing. Be as patient as you can.
>
> Good luck!
> teckThanks so much for your advice. I really hope everything that you say will prove true and that Nardil will flip that switch with my personality.
Posted by tecknohed on January 6, 2008, at 23:05:46
In reply to Re: Nardil: My Experience Thus Far.... » tecknohed, posted by tapiocamonk on January 6, 2008, at 16:37:14
> Question though: I've heard that it takes more Nardil to do the trick since the reformulation by Pfizer; were you on the old formulation or the new and do you think it matters?
Depends. People who have used the old Nardil before & then switch/return to the new Nardil nearly always say that its not the same and they need more of it. However, for people who have never taken Nardil before the new stuff seems to work as good as, and at the same doses as old Nardil. If that makes any sense.
I myself live in the UK & as far as I know Nardil here has never changed, at least in recent years. UK's Nardil pills are orange with no markings & need to be refridgerated.
> That's very interesting. I hadn't heard any of that before about GABA and the short half life.Its Nardils main metabolite. Its called PEH (phenylethylidenehydrazine) & elevates levels of GABA in the caudate-putamen and nucleus accumbens. Dont ask me what that means - I just copied from a web site. LOL. But its well known that Nardil increases GABA. When I was on low dose Klonopin (1.5mg) & wished to stop it for a while my pdoc said there was no need to taper as my Nardil would take care of the GABA. He was right.
I think the half-life is 3-6hrs.> Question: do you think spreading the dose will have any positive or negative effect on daytime sedation and possible insomnia? I think I can deal with the daytime sedation, but I dealt with MAOI insomnia for years on Parnate and am definitely not looking forward to a return of that.
I've never taken Parnate but from what I've heard its NOTHING like Nardil. Some people complain of insomnia with Nardil but usually only at the beginning. I think spreading the dose is always best to reduce side effects, even take 15mg 4 x day if you can. I'd say sedation will be much more likely than insomnia with Nardil, especially when you raise the dose (which many people need to do eventually) & are taking 30mg 3 x day. Thats when you'll want to add something activating. But hopefully that wont happen. I'm not trying to scare you, just being honest :)
> If I had to choose, I would take anorgasmia over low libido any day of the week. I feel like if the Nardil kicks in and I can start behaving like a normal person, getting involved socially and maybe even having a girlfriend and having a sex drive on top of that, I'll just deal with the anorgasmia when it comes up.
Anorgasmia is horrid. Trust me. I never lost my libido with Nardil though. But just trying to cum will sap all your energy. But like I said before there ARE remedies so take note of them.
> Thanks so much for your advice. I really hope everything that you say will prove true and that Nardil will flip that switch with my personality.
ME TOO :)
Posted by Phoenix1 on January 7, 2008, at 19:00:36
In reply to Re: Nardil: My Experience Thus Far.... » tapiocamonk, posted by tecknohed on January 6, 2008, at 23:05:46
> > Question though: I've heard that it takes more Nardil to do the trick since the reformulation by Pfizer; were you on the old formulation or the new and do you think it matters?
>
> Depends. People who have used the old Nardil before & then switch/return to the new Nardil nearly always say that its not the same and they need more of it. However, for people who have never taken Nardil before the new stuff seems to work as good as, and at the same doses as old Nardil. If that makes any sense.
> I myself live in the UK & as far as I know Nardil here has never changed, at least in recent years. UK's Nardil pills are orange with no markings & need to be refridgerated.
>
> > That's very interesting. I hadn't heard any of that before about GABA and the short half life.
>
> Its Nardils main metabolite. Its called PEH (phenylethylidenehydrazine) & elevates levels of GABA in the caudate-putamen and nucleus accumbens. Dont ask me what that means - I just copied from a web site. LOL. But its well known that Nardil increases GABA. When I was on low dose Klonopin (1.5mg) & wished to stop it for a while my pdoc said there was no need to taper as my Nardil would take care of the GABA. He was right.
> I think the half-life is 3-6hrs.
>
> > Question: do you think spreading the dose will have any positive or negative effect on daytime sedation and possible insomnia? I think I can deal with the daytime sedation, but I dealt with MAOI insomnia for years on Parnate and am definitely not looking forward to a return of that.
>
> I've never taken Parnate but from what I've heard its NOTHING like Nardil. Some people complain of insomnia with Nardil but usually only at the beginning. I think spreading the dose is always best to reduce side effects, even take 15mg 4 x day if you can. I'd say sedation will be much more likely than insomnia with Nardil, especially when you raise the dose (which many people need to do eventually) & are taking 30mg 3 x day. Thats when you'll want to add something activating. But hopefully that wont happen. I'm not trying to scare you, just being honest :)
>
> > If I had to choose, I would take anorgasmia over low libido any day of the week. I feel like if the Nardil kicks in and I can start behaving like a normal person, getting involved socially and maybe even having a girlfriend and having a sex drive on top of that, I'll just deal with the anorgasmia when it comes up.
>
> Anorgasmia is horrid. Trust me. I never lost my libido with Nardil though. But just trying to cum will sap all your energy. But like I said before there ARE remedies so take note of them.
>
> > Thanks so much for your advice. I really hope everything that you say will prove true and that Nardil will flip that switch with my personality.
>
> ME TOO :)Was there ever consensus on whether getting Nardil enteric coated (by a compounding pharmacy or using Plasminplus) increased the effects/bioavailability?
Phoenix1
Posted by tecknohed on January 7, 2008, at 20:37:00
In reply to Re: Nardil: My Experience Thus Far.... » tecknohed, posted by Phoenix1 on January 7, 2008, at 19:00:36
> Was there ever consensus on whether getting Nardil enteric coated (by a compounding pharmacy or using Plasminplus) increased the effects/bioavailability?
>
> Phoenix1Dont know. I doubt it. Apart from within the walls of the pharmaceutical companies of course LOL.
I wasn't saying that I dont believe the new/old Nardil problems people have are real, incase that is what you thought I was implying.
UK Nardil literally melts in the mouth so its coating simply holds the contents together. I often sucked on mine (I grew to love the taste) & loved its smell. It was the most powerfull pharmaceutical drug I've EVER taken, so obviously in my case no enteric coating was necessary. Have you any ideas why Nardil was given an enteric coating (if thats what happened)?
Perhapse it was a way to avoid refridgeration? I guess its well absorbed as a sulphate?
What salt is bound to phenelze in Pfizer's new formula? Would Nardil not work as a hydrochloride salt? I always found Nardil felt more potent with a quicker aborption when taken right at the start of a meal, when hydrochloric acid would be at peak stomach concentrations.
But to be honest I have no idea why different drugs are bound to different salt. Maybe each drug has its own most absorbable salt form. Maybe its to do with stability. Or both.By the way, what is Plasminplus & what is it meant to do? Is it a type of coating or something?
teck
Posted by Phoenix1 on January 12, 2008, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Nardil: My Experience Thus Far.... » Phoenix1, posted by tecknohed on January 7, 2008, at 20:37:00
> > Was there ever consensus on whether getting Nardil enteric coated (by a compounding pharmacy or using Plasminplus) increased the effects/bioavailability?
> >
> > Phoenix1
>
> Dont know. I doubt it. Apart from within the walls of the pharmaceutical companies of course LOL.
>
> I wasn't saying that I dont believe the new/old Nardil problems people have are real, incase that is what you thought I was implying.
>
> UK Nardil literally melts in the mouth so its coating simply holds the contents together. I often sucked on mine (I grew to love the taste) & loved its smell. It was the most powerfull pharmaceutical drug I've EVER taken, so obviously in my case no enteric coating was necessary. Have you any ideas why Nardil was given an enteric coating (if thats what happened)?
> Perhapse it was a way to avoid refridgeration? I guess its well absorbed as a sulphate?
> What salt is bound to phenelze in Pfizer's new formula? Would Nardil not work as a hydrochloride salt? I always found Nardil felt more potent with a quicker aborption when taken right at the start of a meal, when hydrochloric acid would be at peak stomach concentrations.
> But to be honest I have no idea why different drugs are bound to different salt. Maybe each drug has its own most absorbable salt form. Maybe its to do with stability. Or both.
>
> By the way, what is Plasminplus & what is it meant to do? Is it a type of coating or something?
>
> teckHi Teck,
I also don't know if th new/old Nardil complants are valid snce I've only used the new Nardil and it seems quite effective. I don't doubt that some people eperienced difficulties during the changeover, but it's hard to pinpoint what the cause might have been.
If you look bck a few years in the archives, people were postulating that the "new" nardil was dissolving too quickly in the stomach and that is hat accounted for reduced effect for many and increased side effects. People thought that one of the removed excipients (I forget which one) acted as an enteric coating slowing the dissolution of the tablet and allowing more to be absorbed in the intestine rather than the stomach. The idea was that if you enteric coated the new Nardil, it would act more like the old Nardil. One poster bought a product called Plasminplus which comes in enteric capsules and emptied the capsules and then put the Nardil in.
Not sure if this was effective, but it's an expensive way to go if you are taking 6 Nardils a day like I plan to.
Do compounding pharmacies enteric coat meds on request?
Phoenix1
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 15, 2008, at 3:33:28
In reply to Re: Nardil: My Experience Thus Far.... » tecknohed, posted by Phoenix1 on January 12, 2008, at 23:23:42
> The idea was that if you enteric coated the new Nardil, it would act more like the old Nardil.
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd consider enteric-coating Nardil an advanced medication issue, so I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding that to the new Psycho-Babble Neurotransmitters board. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/neuro/20080114/msgs/806637.html
Thanks
Bob
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