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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 60 to 84 of 103. Go back in thread:
Posted by sparkle on November 17, 2007, at 10:37:15
In reply to Re: Any1 have flu symptoms or back pain w/ Deplin? » Fivefires, posted by Ron Hill on November 17, 2007, at 0:46:38
ron thanks for the info about the interaction with nsaids. I had not read that and i have taken nsaids for various things. sparkle
Posted by Fivefires on November 17, 2007, at 15:49:04
In reply to Re: Any1 have flu symptoms or back pain w/ Deplin? » Fivefires, posted by Ron Hill on November 17, 2007, at 0:46:38
I can state with pretty much complete certainty Deplin was NOT the cause of the 'flu-like thing' I coincidentally got when began it, as I went ahead and took Deplin yesterday and then again this a.m. and the physical ailment is abating.
Things went too far for me here though. I unsuccessfully tried to reach pdoc and others re: depression weeks ago.
I just posted on social, Major depression. Feel like need hospitalization, but won't lie to get it. Think you know what I mean. It is probably situational in causation, but nonetheless very strong.
When get out of house .. will look for the B-12 as specified and will take a look at d.c. or alter Voltaren, yet I've tried a couple times and gotten damn break-through pain.
Since I didn't have a documented 'accident', I'm not a candidate for surgery, not yet anyway, and have been passed on and on by pain docs. So, my PCP helps me w/ this. There are very few pain docs here. It's never been suggested I see an ortho. I've been told to stay away from chiros. I've only been referred to neurologists, neurosurgeon or pain specialists.
I'm so happy you're in remission.
Tks for staying here and helping out when you could instead be out enjoying life; this is cool of you to do.
I'll try to remember to do the same if ever I'm able.
thanks, 5f
Posted by clipper40 on November 17, 2007, at 18:33:11
In reply to Deplin, posted by Fivefires on November 17, 2007, at 15:49:04
Here's a description of it:
Source Naturals Mega Folinic is a highly bioavailable source of folic acid that helps the body build healthy red blood cells. It supports healthy brain and neurological development along with healthy cell division. Folinic acid does not require the enzymatic conversion that folic acid does so there is enhanced effectiveness for many people. Research suggests that folinic acid is more bioavailable than folic acid because it is more rapidly converted into L-methylfolate, the form of folate in circulation that can cross the blood-brain barrier.*
Here's the link at iherb.com:
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=7735&at=0
Note the very low price! (Even if you had to take a lot of it to get same result as Deplin, you'd still be way ahed of the game financially.)
Posted by Iansf on November 18, 2007, at 18:59:55
In reply to Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well?, posted by clipper40 on November 17, 2007, at 18:33:11
Megafolinic is not in fact substantially cheaper than Deplin because Megafolinic tablets are only 800 mcg, while Deplin tablets are 7.5 mg. It would take nine tablets of Megafolinic to equal slightly less than one tab of Deplin.
> Here's a description of it:
>
> Source Naturals Mega Folinic is a highly bioavailable source of folic acid that helps the body build healthy red blood cells. It supports healthy brain and neurological development along with healthy cell division. Folinic acid does not require the enzymatic conversion that folic acid does so there is enhanced effectiveness for many people. Research suggests that folinic acid is more bioavailable than folic acid because it is more rapidly converted into L-methylfolate, the form of folate in circulation that can cross the blood-brain barrier.*
>
> Here's the link at iherb.com:
>
> http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=7735&at=0
>
> Note the very low price! (Even if you had to take a lot of it to get same result as Deplin, you'd still be way ahed of the game financially.)
>
Posted by clipper40 on November 18, 2007, at 22:06:20
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well?, posted by Iansf on November 18, 2007, at 18:59:55
True, the difference in price is not nearly as large as it appears at first glance.
However, if you do the math (assuming 9.5 tabs of MegaFolinic per dosage and $119.69 as price of Deplin from manufacturer's website), you get $57.60 per 90 doses MegaFolinic vs. the $119.69 of 90 doses of Deplin. That's still quite a significant savings - not to mention that you don't need a prescription for the Megafolinic.
Posted by Iansf on November 21, 2007, at 13:13:24
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well? » Iansf, posted by clipper40 on November 18, 2007, at 22:06:20
> However, if you do the math (assuming 9.5 tabs of MegaFolinic per dosage and $119.69 as price of Deplin from manufacturer's website), you get $57.60 per 90 doses MegaFolinic vs. the $119.69 of 90 doses of Deplin. That's still quite a significant savings - not to mention that you don't need a prescription for the Megafolinic.
>
>
>
Except I found one source that has Deplin for $45 for 30 tablets and $107 for 90 (equivalent to about $36 for 30). So it can still end up being cheaper.
Posted by clipper40 on November 21, 2007, at 16:43:39
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well? » clipper40, posted by Iansf on November 21, 2007, at 13:13:24
> > However, if you do the math (assuming 9.5 tabs of MegaFolinic per dosage and $119.69 as price of Deplin from manufacturer's website), you get $57.60 per 90 doses MegaFolinic vs. the $119.69 of 90 doses of Deplin. That's still quite a significant savings - not to mention that you don't need a prescription for the Megafolinic.
> >
> >
> >
> Except I found one source that has Deplin for $45 for 30 tablets and $107 for 90 (equivalent to about $36 for 30). So it can still end up being cheaper.
How is $107 for 90 doses cheaper than $57.60 for 90 equivalent doses?The only way I can see the Deplin being a better deal is if the Megafolinic doesn't work as well - which is entirely possible, if not probable.
Posted by KayeBaby on November 22, 2007, at 0:52:33
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well? » Iansf, posted by clipper40 on November 21, 2007, at 16:43:39
No. It is the same. The drug co., Pan American, owns the raw material and for a time sold it to supplement companys. It stopped providing l-methylfolate when it was ready to market Deplin.
This is the info I have read. My Dr. told me the same thing.
Peace,
Kaye
Posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 1:21:24
In reply to Re: Any1 have flu symptoms or back pain w/ Deplin?, posted by sparkle on November 17, 2007, at 10:37:15
This study shows why folate supplementation does not help all depressed patients. This has direct application to Deplin efficacy. But more than that, it gives a good rationale for why folate tx does work well in patients with low folate as measured by homocysteine levels.
http://jnnp.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/69/2/228?ijkey=894fd0cb1ea17d8ec0e2ef52e5b7f0ab7739e709
- Ron
Posted by Iansf on November 22, 2007, at 11:43:26
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well? » Iansf, posted by clipper40 on November 21, 2007, at 16:43:39
> How is $107 for 90 doses cheaper than $57.60 for 90 equivalent doses?
>This is why you should never hire me to do your income tax forms - unless, of course, you WANT to pay the IRS more than you owe.
Posted by KayeBaby on November 22, 2007, at 11:59:28
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well?, posted by Iansf on November 22, 2007, at 11:43:26
I figured out what happened. I sent the wrong link or they switched products. The product I was taking is Metafolin by Source Naturals.
Oh-Merck is the patent holder not Pan Am. I think I was up too late when I posted this.
Sorry for any confusion.
Kaye
Posted by clipper40 on November 22, 2007, at 14:05:44
In reply to Re: Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well?, posted by Iansf on November 22, 2007, at 11:43:26
Posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 14:19:20
In reply to Do you think MegaFolinic could work as well?, posted by clipper40 on November 17, 2007, at 18:33:11
Posted by sparkle on November 22, 2007, at 14:34:08
In reply to Please see my post below regarding Metafolin » Ian » clipper40, posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 14:19:20
i am really confused now. so is there a drug comparable to deplin out there and substantially cheaper. if so where do you access it? thanks sparkle ps happy thanksgiving
Posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 14:48:48
In reply to Re: Please see my post below regarding Metafolin, posted by sparkle on November 22, 2007, at 14:34:08
> i am really confused now. so is there a drug comparable to deplin out there and substantially cheaper. if so where do you access it? thanks sparkle ps happy thanksgiving
No, I doubt that it is cheaper; just available. I did not do the math.
--Ron
Posted by clipper40 on November 23, 2007, at 2:09:47
In reply to Please see my post below regarding Metafolin » Ian » clipper40, posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 14:19:20
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20071115/msgs/796578.html
Hi Ron,I understand that MegaFolinic (folinic acid)is not the same as L-methylfolate but according to the blurb on it at iHerb.com, it converts more easily to L-methylfolate than regular folic acid:
"Folinic acid does not require the enzymatic conversion that folic acid does so there is enhanced effectiveness for many people. Research suggests that folinic acid is more bioavailable than folic acid because it is more rapidly converted into L-methylfolate, the form of folate in circulation that can cross the blood-brain barrier.*"http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=7735
So I was wondering if it might still work as well, or nearly as well, as L-methylfolate. Probably not but maybe it's worth a try?C40
Posted by clipper40 on November 23, 2007, at 2:23:19
In reply to Cost of Deplin vs HSFolate » sparkle, posted by Ron Hill on November 22, 2007, at 14:48:48
> > i am really confused now. so is there a drug comparable to deplin out there and substantially cheaper. if so where do you access it? thanks sparkle ps happy thanksgiving
>
> No, I doubt that it is cheaper; just available. I did not do the math.
>
> --Ron
You're right. I just did the math and the HSFolate is almost 4 times as expensive as Deplin for equivalent dosage (not taking into account that HSFolate also contains coenzyme B12 and regular B6). Yikes! That's really expensive.
Posted by Ron Hill on November 23, 2007, at 19:22:47
In reply to Re: Please see my post below regarding Metafolin » Ron Hill, posted by clipper40 on November 23, 2007, at 2:09:47
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20071115/msgs/796578.html
>
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> I understand that MegaFolinic (folinic acid)is not the same as L-methylfolate but according to the blurb on it at iHerb.com, it converts more easily to L-methylfolate than regular folic acid:True. There are four steps that folic acid must go through before it becomes L-methylfolate. The first step is the one that some people (30% to 50% of the general population, depending on who you read) have at least some amount of difficulty in transforming folic acid to dihydrofolate via the dihydrofolate reductase.
This will all make more sense if we look at pictures. Therefore, pull up the following page on the Deplin web site:
http://www.deplin.com/DeplinFacts,VsFolicAcid
Notice on the flowchart that there are four steps for folic acid and it is the first step that is difficult for some people to make. And, of course, no steps are needed for L-methylfolate (Deplin).
Let's look at another picture:
http://www.metafolin.com/pdfs/Scientific_Review_13.12.pdf (the pdf pulls up slowly)
Look on page 5. This bottom drawing shows the steps that folic acid has to go through to become L-methylfolate.
As an aside, read the text on page 5. This is part of the reason why all patients taking folates should also take methylcobalamin (methyl-B12). Further, it is also important to take P-5-P (coenzymatic form of B-6). VERY important to take both. If not, then take Metanx, http://www.metanx.com/ . Scroll to the bottom of the page and notice that Metanx has all three in it already (L-methylfolate, P-5-P, and methyl-B12).
> "Folinic acid does not require the enzymatic conversion that folic acid does so there is enhanced effectiveness for many people. Research suggests that folinic acid is more bioavailable than folic acid because it is more rapidly converted into L-methylfolate, the form of folate in circulation that can cross the blood-brain barrier.*"
>
> http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=7735
>
>
> So I was wondering if it might still work as well, or nearly as well, as L-methylfolate. Probably not but maybe it's worth a try?I don’t know the answer to your question. In doing some reading, to try to answer your question, my hunch is that it would work nearly as well. But, don’t quote me on that. Folinic acid is a 5-formyl derivative of tetrahydrofolate and it is readily converted to other reduced folic acid derivatives (e.g. tetrahydrofolate). I’m not sure where on the Deplin website flowchart 5-formyl tetrahydrofolate would be located. Is it to the right or left of tetrahydrofolate, or somewhere else? I dunno.
As a side note, folinic acid is used as an adjuvant in cancer chemotherapy. For this purpose, folinic acid is known as leucovorin.
Not much help to you on this one Clipper.
Why not just get a script from your pdoc for Deplin, Metanx, or CerefolinNAC, and let your insurance company pay for it?
> C40
Posted by clipper40 on November 24, 2007, at 4:37:12
In reply to Folinic Acid vs L-methylfolate » clipper40, posted by Ron Hill on November 23, 2007, at 19:22:47
>>Why not just get a script from your pdoc for >Deplin, Metanx, or CerefolinNAC, and let your >insurance company pay for it?
Thanks for your excellent, in-depth response! I think the script is the best way to go too. (I'm just not sure how much longer I'll be able to afford health insurance.)Take care,
Clipper
Posted by Ron Hill on November 25, 2007, at 1:18:24
In reply to Re: Folinic Acid vs L-methylfolate » Ron Hill, posted by clipper40 on November 24, 2007, at 4:37:12
> I think the script is the best way to go too. (I'm just not sure how much longer I'll be able to afford health insurance.)
C40,Pull up the Deplin home page:
In the header, in the far right column, click "Get a ValueCard", and print the ValueCard.
From the home page click "Price Quote". Print the quote to show your pharmacy.
Use the "Pharmacy Availability" link to see if your pharmacy, or another nearby pharmacy, accepts the coupon.
Clipper, will you do me a favor? If you have time, will you tell me your dx, list your current meds and dosages, list the meds you have tried in the past, and briefly tell me your reaction to your previous med trials. Finally, list the symptoms of your disorder(s) that remain problematic.
I saw in another thread that you are considering an AP, but wisely you're concerned about the possible side effects.
On this end, 34 days ago I modified my med combo by adding 15 mg/day of Deplin, along with 50 mg/day of the VERY IMPORTANT Pyridoxal-5'-Phosphate (P-5-P), and 2000 mcg/day of the VERY IMPORTANT methylcobalamin (methyl-B12).
P-5-P is the coenzyme form of B-6, ready for direct use in metabolic cycles. And, methyl-B12 is the form of B12 used directly in the brain.
As I've stated before, it is very important to take P-5-P and methyl-B12 with Deplin. The P-5-P dosage should not exceed 200 mg/day. Other than that, I'd say the pt should play with the dosages until the dosages feels right.
With only 34 days of use, it's too early to do the victory dance. However, I'm getting such excellent results that I have went ahead and put on my dancing shoes in anticipation of continued remission of my bipolar II ultra rapid cycling depression and dysphoria.
For me, the positive effects of the Deplin/P-5-P/methyl-B12 addition began the second day. My wife tells me that Deplin has changed me from "Growly Boy" to "Lovey-Dovey Boy"
Thanks for allowing me to repeat some of what I have mentioned in the past. I'm just hoping to get the word out.
Thanks, C40. Hope to hear back from you.
-- Ron
Currently in near-full remission.
dx: Bipolar II, with ultra rapid cycling (15 days for one complete cycle), and mild Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD)600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
875 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
15 mg/day Deplin
P-5-P
Methyl-B12Androgel: 4 pumps of Androgel testosterone on a prn basis (typically administered once) during the two or three days of ultra rapid cycling depressive phases which occur every 15 days.
A few miscellaneous other vitamins and supplements: zinc, phosphatidylserine, selenium, vitamin D, Mg Malate/dietary Ca in yogurt etc, liquid fish oil, a good daily multiple vitamin.
Posted by clipper40 on November 25, 2007, at 17:43:05
In reply to Deplin Cost Reduction Coupon » clipper40, posted by Ron Hill on November 25, 2007, at 1:18:24
Ron,
Thanks so much for caring! I'll send you a babblemail soon.
Clipper
Posted by Ron Hill on December 4, 2007, at 18:59:38
In reply to Deplin Has Made rHill Well (So Far, As of Day 26 ) » Fivefires, posted by Ron Hill on November 16, 2007, at 1:08:35
To All PB Participants Interested in Deplin,
After 39 days of use, Deplin has quit providing any antidepressant effect and it has turned against me.
I am currently in a difficult depression that I can't pull out of.
Prior to starting Deplin, my BP II ultra rapid cycling caused me to have 3 days of depression out of every 15 days. This reoccurred over and over like clockwork. I could depend on it, and I would know when the depression would abate.
However, my current depression is lasting longer than three days, and there is no sign of relief in sight. I have no idea how long the depression will last.
I am titrating down my Deplin dosage.
Deplin provided good benefits and showed great promise during the first month or so. But, now it has turned against me and it has left me in a heap unable to function.
I will try, but forgive me if I am unable to reply to posts.
-- Ron
Posted by Phillipa on December 4, 2007, at 19:38:08
In reply to My Deplin Trial Failed » All Interested in Deplin, posted by Ron Hill on December 4, 2007, at 18:59:38
Ron oh no I'm so terribly sorry. Will you stay on the other meds or add something? I feel so bad for you. Love Jan
Posted by elanor roosevelt on December 4, 2007, at 22:21:03
In reply to My Deplin Trial Failed » All Interested in Deplin, posted by Ron Hill on December 4, 2007, at 18:59:38
I am so sorry to hear this.
I know that when meds turn on you it can be ugly.
Have you called your doctor?
It's easy to get stuck where you are in your head after a crash so please take care
To All PB Participants Interested in Deplin,
>
> After 39 days of use, Deplin has quit providing any antidepressant effect and it has turned against me.
>
> I am currently in a difficult depression that I can't pull out of.
>
> Prior to starting Deplin, my BP II ultra rapid cycling caused me to have 3 days of depression out of every 15 days. This reoccurred over and over like clockwork. I could depend on it, and I would know when the depression would abate.
>
> However, my current depression is lasting longer than three days, and there is no sign of relief in sight. I have no idea how long the depression will last.
>
> I am titrating down my Deplin dosage.
>
> Deplin provided good benefits and showed great promise during the first month or so. But, now it has turned against me and it has left me in a heap unable to function.
>
> I will try, but forgive me if I am unable to reply to posts.
>
> -- Ron
Posted by clipper40 on December 5, 2007, at 0:40:02
In reply to My Deplin Trial Failed » All Interested in Deplin, posted by Ron Hill on December 4, 2007, at 18:59:38
Oh Ron, I'm so very sad to read about your current difficulty. It has to be terribly disappointing for you when you had such high hopes for Deplin. Is there any chance that a lower dosage might be the answer?
You will pull out of this bad cycle. You always have.
I wish I could do more than just commiserate with you. You are such a special person and so many of us here care about you and are rooting for you.
Clipper
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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