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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on October 29, 2007, at 19:50:30
In reply to Marty -) King of Nothing, posted by Marty on October 29, 2007, at 13:58:03
Marty that was funny. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on October 29, 2007, at 19:52:59
In reply to Re: Marty -) King of Nothing, posted by King of Nothing on October 29, 2007, at 15:04:17
Here we go again . Love Phillipa
Posted by KayeBaby on October 30, 2007, at 20:37:07
In reply to Re: Marty -) King of Nothing » King of Nothing, posted by Phillipa on October 29, 2007, at 19:52:59
l-methylfolate and Deplin are the same thing.
800mcg x 4= 3.2mg ??Is my math wrong? I suck at calculations.
Kaye
Posted by stargazer2 on October 31, 2007, at 8:35:19
In reply to Re: Marty -) King of Nothing, posted by KayeBaby on October 30, 2007, at 20:37:07
Kaye, you have to convert from microgram to milligrams first, so your calculation is not correct. I can't remember how to do this myself but someone here should be able to help.
SG
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2007, at 8:49:02
In reply to Conversion of mcg(micrograms) to mg(milligrams), posted by stargazer2 on October 31, 2007, at 8:35:19
> Kaye, you have to convert from microgram to milligrams first, so your calculation is not correct. I can't remember how to do this myself but someone here should be able to help.
> SGmicro- prefix meaning one millionth, contracted to mc (or the Greek lower case mu)
mili- prefix meaning one thousandth, contracted to mmicro to mili: divide by 1000
mili to micro: multiply by 1000By the way, if anyone ever has a problem with unit conversions, the Google search window is also a unit conversion engine. Type in something like e.g. "3 miles in centimeters", and it will tell you how many there are. Natural language structure is fine.
Lar
Posted by stargazer2 on November 1, 2007, at 8:36:33
In reply to Re: Conversion of mcg(micrograms) to mg(milligrams) » stargazer2, posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2007, at 8:49:02
Larry, so the question is how many 800 mcg pills equal 7.5 mg deplin..
If 7.5 mg = 7500 mcg, then you divide 7500 mcg by 800 mcg and get approx. 10.
Does anyone know if this is correct? I thought i read something like 70 pills of 800 mcg were necessary to equal 7.5 mg deplin.
I get 10. Can anyone verify this number?
SG
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2007, at 11:43:41
In reply to Re: Conversion of mcg(micrograms) to mg(milligrams), posted by stargazer2 on November 1, 2007, at 8:36:33
> Larry, so the question is how many 800 mcg pills equal 7.5 mg deplin..
>
> If 7.5 mg = 7500 mcg, then you divide 7500 mcg by 800 mcg and get approx. 10.
>
> Does anyone know if this is correct? I thought i read something like 70 pills of 800 mcg were necessary to equal 7.5 mg deplin.
>
> I get 10. Can anyone verify this number?
>
> SGYou're doing that conversion properly, but I think the original comparison was of two different substances, also. Folate is not directly comparable to l-methylfolate, so that also enters into the comparison. By inference, folate supplementation gives approximately one seventh the yield of l-methylfolate? Thus, you would need (10 times) times (7 times) the amount of folate to yield the bioequivalent dose of 7.5 mg of preformed l-methylfolate.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on November 1, 2007, at 14:56:14
In reply to Re: Conversion of mcg(micrograms) to mg(milligrams), posted by stargazer2 on November 1, 2007, at 8:36:33
i read something like 70 pills of 800 mcg were necessary to equal 7.5 mg deplin.
> I get 10. Can anyone verify this number?
------------------
Star,See the bottom half of this web page:
http://www.deplin.com/DeplinFacts,VsFolicAcid-- Ron
Posted by KayeBaby on November 1, 2007, at 21:21:16
In reply to Re: Conversion of mcg(micrograms) to mg(milligrams) » stargazer2, posted by Ron Hill on November 1, 2007, at 14:56:14
L-methylfolate (brand name Metafolin-what I am taking) is the same substance as Deplin. Folate is different-the less bioavailable form.
Kaye
Posted by stargazer2 on November 1, 2007, at 22:26:26
In reply to Re: Conversion of mcg(micrograms) to mg(milligrams), posted by KayeBaby on November 1, 2007, at 21:21:16
Kaye, I thought I read that metafolin was 800 mcg too, not the same as 7.5 mg of Deplin. How many pills of the Metafolin are you taking?
Stargazer
Posted by Phillipa on November 1, 2007, at 22:45:11
In reply to Metafolin dose different than Deplin/Kaye, posted by stargazer2 on November 1, 2007, at 22:26:26
This is getting confusing but the Deplin link says the facts. Haven't google the other but will. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on November 1, 2007, at 22:47:46
In reply to Re: Metafolin dose different than Deplin/Kaye, posted by Phillipa on November 1, 2007, at 22:45:11
Metafolin isn't a prescription it is a dietary supplement googled it. Man like I say it's getting confusing. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on November 1, 2007, at 22:55:31
In reply to Re: Conversion of mcg(micrograms) to mg(milligrams), posted by KayeBaby on November 1, 2007, at 21:21:16
Found this. Now someone figure it out please. Phillipa ps last part or senence I didn't get.Couldn't copy it.
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Merck's Metafolin receives EU approvalBy Jess Halliday
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09/03/2006 - The EU has given the green light for the use of Merck Eprova's Metafolin, a patented form of folate with superior bioavailability, in dietary supplements and dietetic foods in the EU, thereby giving formulators the means to differentiate their products from those containing folic acid.The EU Standing Committee on the Food Chain and Animal Health voted to include Calcium L-Methylfolate (Metafolin) in the positive list of vitamins covered in the EU Directives 2002/46/EC (food supplements) and 2001/15/EC (foods for particular nutritional uses).
Metafolin is the predominant folate found in foods such as orange juice, green leafy vegetables, salads and yeast, and is a form that can be directly used by the body.Until now, however, supplement-makers have only been able to use synthetically produced folic acid, the most oxidised form of folate which has to be reduced in four metabolic steps for the body to use it.
In fact, although it is the best-known folate form, folic acid does not occur naturally in foods but is produced synthetically.
Merck Eprova has developed a proprietary process for the production of a stable synthetic crystalline L-methylfolate; in the past, stability issues have prevented its use in foods and supplements.
"Metafolin is a proprietary folate with excellent bioavailability. We believe Metafolin is an interesting tool for a differentiation strategy in a highly competitive market," explained product manager Roger Weibel.
A 2003 study involving 24 healthy female volunteers concluded that Metafoline is more than 50 percent more bioavailble than folic acid over an eight hour period - 99.83 AUC (h x nmol/l) compared to 63.94 (Prinz-Langenohl R. et al. J. Inherit. Metab. Dis. 26 (1), 124 2003).
Weibel told NutraIngredients.com that if the metabolic pathway works as it should, folic acid is normally converted to L-methylfolate. But one cannot be one hundred percent sure that all the folic acid will be converted, which may mean that some unmetabolised folic acid remains in the body.
The long-term effects of any such unmetabolised folate acid are unknown - a factor that has led to some criticism of folic acid fortification programmes in countries including the US.
Metafolin is already used in supplements and medical foods in the US, since it was approved by the FDA in 2001. It is not yet approved for use in mainstream foods on either side of the Atlantic, and although this may be a possibility for the future, Weibel said that the company is taking one step at a time.
Since there is awareness about folic acid amongst consumers, Weibel expects that it will be some time before Metafolin becomes equally well-known. However scientific journals and newspapers are increasingly preferring to use the blanket term 'folate'.
Weibel was not able to comment on the company's marketing plan for the EU, save that, since Metafolin is not a commodity but a proprietary substance, this creates the opportunity for product differentiation by leading supplement-makers.
The ingredient has already received several rubber-stamps on the road to EU approval: in October 2004 it was positive evaluation by the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA), and a further positive evaluate from JECFA (Joint FAO/WHO Expert Committee on Food Additives) followed in July 2005.
Merch Eprova general manager Martin Ulmann, General Manager of Merck said that the favourable outcome of the vote enables the company to "provide EU consumers with a naturally occurring folate, at a time when there is growing awareness of the health benefits of folate supplementation."
"Food is the major source for folates. However, in a large part of the population folate intake with food is insufficient. An adequate intake of folates is essential for the
Posted by KayeBaby on November 2, 2007, at 15:42:44
In reply to Re: Conversion of mcg(micrograms) to mg(milligrams), posted by Phillipa on November 1, 2007, at 22:55:31
I am not taking enough to equal 7.5 mg. I am only taking 2 800mcg pills right now.
But...regular folate is much less bioavailable. That is where they get the 75 pills statement.
I am taking L-methylfolate. Deplin is a trade name for L-methylfolate. Metafolin (was) a trade name for L-methylfolate. I am not taking the same amount but am taking the same substance.
Kaye
Posted by Ron Hill on November 2, 2007, at 21:07:30
In reply to Re: Metafolin dose different than Deplin/Kaye, posted by Phillipa on November 1, 2007, at 22:47:46
> Metafolin isn't a prescription it is a dietary supplement googled it. Man like I say it's getting confusing. Phillipa
------------------------------Jan and Star,
Metafolin is the trademarked name for the L-methylfolate. Metafolin is manufactured by a company named Epova which is fully owned by Merk. Merk owns patents for the manufacturing process that they use to make Metafolin. For ANY and ALL retail products that contain L-methylfolate, the L-methylfolate ingredient was purchased from Epova (Merk), and is the trademarked Metafolin.
To my knowledge, no other company other than Epova currently manufactures L-methylfolate.
Don't believe me; check it out for yourselves. Cerefolin, Metnx, and Deplin are three current Rx products that contain L-methylfolate. And, there are still some OTC's on the market that contain L-methylfolate. In every case, the L-methylfolate is made by Epova (i.e.; Merk) and, therefore, it is Metafolin.
As I understand it, Merk is slowly but surely getting rid of the OTC's because they want all products that contain Metafolin to be an Rx only product. Let's face it, if Merk is the only place you can buy L-methylfolate, and Merk decides that they no longer want to sell to OTC's, the OTC L-methyfolate products will disappear.
So check it out; look on any of the OTC's and you will see the trade name Metafolin. Same thing for the Rx products. Here are some of the web sites. Somewhere on each of the web sites you will see reference to Metafolin.
http://www.cerefolinnac.com/index.php
http://www.deplin.com/index.php
http://www.bioactivhealth.com/fighters_order_refill.htm
http://iherb.stores.yahoo.net/metafolin.html
Here are links to the Metafolin home page and Eprova
-- Ron
Currently in Full Remission since the Addition of Deplin on 10/22/07. Time will tell if it lasts.
dx: Bipolar II, with ultra rapid cycling (15 days for one complete cycle), and mild Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD)
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
875 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
15 mg/day Deplin
Posted by stargazer2 on November 2, 2007, at 21:47:02
In reply to Re: Conversion of mcg(micrograms) to mg(milligrams), posted by KayeBaby on November 2, 2007, at 15:42:44
Kaye,I just wanted to know how much of the Metafolin you are taking, now I know.
sg
Posted by stargazer2 on November 2, 2007, at 21:56:44
In reply to Clearing Up the Confusion; Metafolin » stargazer2 » Phillipa, posted by Ron Hill on November 2, 2007, at 21:07:30
Ron, thanks for your explanation of that. I wanted to find out if I took the Metafolin at 800 mcg it would be the same substance as Deplin (which it is) but not the same dosage. 7.5 mg of Deplin seems like alot of Methylfolate considering the OTC Metafolin dosage is 800 mcg.
I wonder how they came up with putting that much in Deplin, is 7.5 mg necessary or would 800 mcg be enough to help with depression. Did any of the literature address that specifically?
I asked the endocrinologist, who I saw this week, about taking Deplin as a folic acid replacement and he said the best test to verify any deficiency is a Homocysteine level. If it is elevated it would be from a folate deficiency. We shall see, SG
Posted by Phillipa on November 2, 2007, at 22:19:15
In reply to Re: Conversion of mcg(micrograms) to mg(milligrams), posted by stargazer2 on November 2, 2007, at 21:47:02
So more than one prescription name all from Merck. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on November 2, 2007, at 22:39:36
In reply to Re: Clearing Up the Confusion; Metafolin/Ron, posted by stargazer2 on November 2, 2007, at 21:56:44
Stargazer but it's for the cardiovascular system and alzheimers so still don't get how it helps depression. Phillipa
Posted by stargazer2 on November 3, 2007, at 12:25:32
In reply to Re: Conversion of mcg(micrograms) to mg(milligrams) » stargazer2, posted by Phillipa on November 2, 2007, at 22:19:15
Posted by stargazer2 on November 3, 2007, at 12:26:36
In reply to Re: Clearing Up the Confusion; Metafolin/Ron » stargazer2, posted by Phillipa on November 2, 2007, at 22:39:36
Posted by Ron Hill on November 3, 2007, at 13:26:23
In reply to Deplin is the only prescription methylfolate (nm), posted by stargazer2 on November 3, 2007, at 12:25:32
SG,
> Deplin is the only prescription methylfolate
Not really. CerfolinNAC and Metanx are also Rx. The only difference between the latter two and Deplin is that the latter two add some vitamins to the L-methylfolate.
Cerfolin =
5.6 mg L-methylfolate (Metafolin®)
2 mg Methycobalamin (i.e., Methyl-B12)
600 mg N-acetylcysteine (i.e.; NAC)
http://www.cerefolinnac.com/PackageInsertMetanx =
2.8 mg L-methylfolate (Metafolin®)
25 mg Pyridoxal 5'-phosphate (i.e.; P-5-P = coenzymatic B6)
2 mg Methylcobalamin (i.e.; methyl-B12)
http://www.metanx.com/ (see bottom of the web page)-Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on November 3, 2007, at 13:59:20
In reply to Re: Clearing Up the Confusion; Metafolin/Ron » stargazer2, posted by Phillipa on November 2, 2007, at 22:39:36
> Stargazer but it's for the cardiovascular system and alzheimers so still don't get how it helps depression. Phillipa
Jan, it is analogous to the anti-epileptic drugs (AED's) being marketed for the treatment of epilepsy, but are also used off-label to treat bipolar disorder.
-- Ron
Posted by Phillipa on November 3, 2007, at 20:12:06
In reply to Re: Clearing Up the Confusion; Metafolin » Phillipa, posted by Ron Hill on November 3, 2007, at 13:59:20
Thanks Ron and thought there were a few more prescriptions but why don't docs know of them? Phillipa
Posted by Ron Hill on November 4, 2007, at 13:41:47
In reply to Re: Clearing Up the Confusion; Metafolin/Ron, posted by stargazer2 on November 2, 2007, at 21:56:44
> 7.5 mg of Deplin seems like alot of Methylfolate considering the OTC Metafolin dosage is 800 mcg.
> I wonder how they came up with putting that much in Deplin, is 7.5 mg necessary or would 800 mcg be enough to help with depression. Did any of the literature address that specifically?
No, I did not run across any explanation for the dosage. Metanx, and Cerefolin contain less.
As an aside, for me, a single morning dose of Deplin wears off after about six hours. Therefore, I was faced with the decision of either splitting the morning dose of the unscored 7.5 mg tablet by biting it in two, or adding a second 7.5 mg dose in the afternoon. I chose the latter. Therefore, I take 15 mg/day of Deplin.
Look at the dose response curve for Deplin at the bottom of this webpage (note; 6(R,S)-5-MTHF is another name for L-methylfolate):
http://www.deplin.com/HealthcareProfessionals,Deplin
Notice that by the sixth hour after taking a single dose, the plasma level of L-methylfolate has markedly declined from the peak plasma level. Although plasma level is not completely indicative of brain levels, my hunch is that this dose response provides an explanation for my need to take a morning dose and an early afternoon dose.
> I asked the endocrinologist, who I saw this week, about taking Deplin as a folic acid replacement and he said the best test to verify any deficiency is a Homocysteine level. If it is elevated it would be from a folate deficiency. We shall see, SG
Clearly, your endo would know more about it than I. And, I fully agree that low L-methylfolate will indeed increase homocysteine. However, other factors can also cause high homocysteine levels. For example, on the Metafolin web site:
Click on the Scientific Review tab, and scroll down to page five of this pdf file. Read the section titled CELLULAR FOLATE METABOLISM AND MASKING OF VITAMIN B12 DEFICIENCY. Use the two diagrams as visual helps.
Pay particular attention to the discussion of the Methyl Trap Hypothysis. Under this scenario, there is a more than adequate quantity of L-methylfolate in the cell, but homocysteine will be high due to a deficiency of B12.
My only point is that other problems besides low L-methylfolate can cause high homocysteine levels.
If it were me, I'd forgo the expensive testing and simply try some Deplin to see if it helps. If so, keep it on board. If not, dump it. But, that's just me, and you gotta do what you think best.
Star, if there is one thing that I would like to scream from a high tower to everyone taking Deplin is to TAKE SUBLINGUAL METHYLCOBALAMIN (i.e.; METHYL-B12) WITH DEPLIN. The reason for this is to avoid the problems discussed in the section of the Metafolin web site that you just read.
If patients are not going to take methyl-B12 with Deplin, then IMHO, they should take Metanx, which is L-methylfolate plus methyl-B12 and P-5-P (the "brain-ready" form of B6).
IMHO, here are a couple of the best Methyl B12 products:
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=129&at=0
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=2119
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=117&at=0
By the way, I also take the all important P-5-P and zinc as well as other vitamins.
-- Ron
dx: Bipolar II, with ultra rapid cycling (15 days for one complete cycle), and mild Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD)
600 mg/day Trileptal
200 mg/day Lamictal
875 mg/day Keppra
90 mg/day Nardil
15 mg/day Deplin
This is the end of the thread.
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