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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by unbottled on October 23, 2007, at 16:14:45
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » unbottled, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 15:18:15
"Lost a lot". No kidding. When I hear
of things like exercise dramatically
changing a person's life for the better,
I will cheer for them. But I know for
sure in advance, no matter their method
or enthusiasm, that they know squat
about drama or having their
life changed.I think I've not been listening to
you Squiggles.
Posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 16:42:45
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by unbottled on October 23, 2007, at 15:06:06
> Both and each. Not either or. Please.
I quite agree. Ironically this thread was started writing that pharmaceuticals are the only way to treat mental illness, that it is wrong to discontinue a pharmaceutical regimen, that other treatments are useless, and that people who suggest differently should **** ***. Or something to that effect.
I am not aware that the use of pharmaceuticals was discouraged anywhere in this thread. Certainly the point that I made was that not everybody who use medication necessarily need to be medicated. I do not dispute that there are legitimately mentally ill individuals who benefit substantially from medication. Having said that, there are many individuals who can and do benefit substantially from healthy lifestyle changes, sometimes to the point of no longer needing medication. I am one of them, and I know of others in my immediate circle of acquaintances. And if the need ever arises, I will not hesitate to go back onto a pharmaceutical regimen, but for now, I am doing well without it.
Did I ever have a chemical imbalance in my brain? Probably. Did that imbalance respond to medication? Absolutely. Was that imbalance endogenous? In my case, I don't think so. I now hypothesize that much of my depression and fatigue is due to poor breathing while asleep. I intend to have my nasal obstruction surgically corrected later this year; in the mean time, a nasal decongestant before bed does wonders for my waking up feeling refreshed. Reducing my sugar intake seems to have stabilized my mood substantially. Counseling and a variety of self-help books have taught me good emotional hygiene. Fish oil and methylating agents stimulate me more than what 150 mg of daily Wellbutrin did. Etc., etc., etc.
The point is that some people can manage without medication, and that choice should be respected.
I also feel that doctors are too quick to diagnose endogenous mental illness without first eliminating other possible physiological causes of the patient's condition. Two different doctors had told me, based on my persistent low mood, that I needed to stay on antidepressants for the rest of my life, that I simply had poor brain chemistry and that was simply the way it was. They were both well-intentioned but ultimately wrong.
> Squiggles is right to be angry.
Why?
Jamal
Posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 16:51:48
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 16:42:45
Well, i'm not really angry. I am sorry
my writing comes across that way. If i
remember exercise, and vitamins and
stuff like that was being proposed as
an alternative to meds for mental illness.And i wish to stress that the question
of numbers is important: how many are
mentally ill and need meds, and how many
are not, and take meds anyway.When mental illness strikes, it is evidently
and indubitably different, surprising the
person himself/herself sometimes. As for the
causes, there may some as you say which are
not endogenous, and a preliminary study into
that is usually part of the course. I would
like to my faith in doctors though, and say that
when they see what looks like manic-depression,
it IS manic-depression, and the med works, then
that is the best you can get from mental health care today.Squiggles
Posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 17:08:15
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » Squiggles, posted by unbottled on October 23, 2007, at 16:14:45
> "Lost a lot". No kidding. When I hear
> of things like exercise dramatically
> changing a person's life for the better,
> I will cheer for them. But I know for
> sure in advance, no matter their method
> or enthusiasm, that they know squat
> about drama or having their
> life changed.There are many failed suicide victims - people who clearly understand about drama and suffering and all - who go on to live happy and successful lives unmedicated. Beware to assume that your suffering has been worse than that of others.
Jamal
Posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 17:29:04
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » Jamal Spelling, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 16:51:48
> If i remember exercise, and vitamins and
> stuff like that was being proposed as
> an alternative to meds for mental illness.Indeed. I'm not quite sure what's wrong with proposing alternatives to medication. Other alternatives to medication might be ECT, VNS, etc. At no point was it stated in this thread that it is wrong to use medication. There is indisputable evidence that exercise, as well as certain vitamins and minerals, are beneficial in the treatment of depression. Lithium itself is an elemental mineral, atomic number 3, after hydrogen and helium. The single most effective psychoactive substance that I have ever taken was a supplement called SAMe. The effects were dramatic and pronounced, far more so than the Zoloft, Celexa and Wellbutrin that I have used over the years. As far as I'm aware, SAMe is a prescription antidepressant in Italy, so it's a case of one man's terrorist being another man's freedom fighter.
Jamal
Posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 17:43:18
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » Squiggles, posted by unbottled on October 23, 2007, at 16:14:45
> "Lost a lot". No kidding. When I hear
> of things like exercise dramatically
> changing a person's life for the better,
> I will cheer for them. But I know for
> sure in advance, no matter their method
> or enthusiasm, that they know squat
> about drama or having their
> life changed.As opposed to what? If a person reports that exercise benefited them dramatically, then it's fake, but if it's medication that benefited them then their suffering must have been real?
Jamal
Posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 17:46:47
In reply to That Way Lies Madness, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 8:10:49
> do they actually take a brain serum sample to compare it to antidepressants?
Of course not. Just like they don't take brain serum samples from depression patients to measure the efficacy of antidepressant medication.
Jamal
Posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 17:54:23
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by unbottled on October 23, 2007, at 15:06:06
> The problem is that some folks are
> nostalgic for nineteenth century non-answers.The problem is that some folks are nostalgic for 1960s non-answers. You know, like treating obesity with amphetamines and then counteracting the overstimulation with barbiturates. Or like treating the "belligerent old senile" with chlorpromazine.
This statement of mine is of course completely stupid, about as stupid as your statement that using non-pharmaceutical interventions for mental illness is nostalgia for nineteenth-century non-answers.
Jamal
Posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 18:03:21
In reply to That Way Lies Madness, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 8:10:49
> Sometimes I wonder if there are anti-psychiatry
> cults in our midst, who encourage people to
> get off their drugs and replace them with
> exercise, sweating, and co-therapeutic introspection.Co-therapeutic introspection: yes, they are called psychologists.
They have all kinds of theories,
> non of them coming from a medical education, like
> "exercise-induced endomorphins"-- well, how many
> does it take?How many serotonins does it take to treat depression, huh Squiggles? Or how many dopamines? How many norepinephrines? Tell me, what exactly is the neurochemistry of your condition, bipolar disorder? Can you quantify it the way you expect others to quantify their treatments?
Jamal
Posted by Deputy Racer on October 23, 2007, at 18:20:49
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 14:41:02
> Taking nothing at all is worse than taking something that has some effect, though not the best effect.
>
> it is baffling that you should let people remain ill and ruin their lives or self-medicate with alcohol or street drugs, or worse kill themselves or others.
>
> Remitting, only when it is exogenously causes, as in grief for example.
>
> Yeah, that will be $100 dollars please -- 'your neighbourhood palm reader'.
>Please don't post anything which could lead others to feel accused or put down, no matter how much you may disagree with their stance. Please be sensitive to those who have experienced remission from non-situational depression without the use of drugs. This world has room for a variety of experiences, and it is important to respect that variety.
If you or anyone else has any questions regarding the posting guidelines at this site, please read the FAQ, located at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil Follow ups to this administrative action should be directed to the Administration board and should themselves be civil.
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Deputy Racer
Posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 18:21:00
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » Squiggles, posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 18:03:21
> > Sometimes I wonder if there are anti-psychiatry
> > cults in our midst, who encourage people to
> > get off their drugs and replace them with
> > exercise, sweating, and co-therapeutic introspection.
>
> Co-therapeutic introspection: yes, they are called psychologists.
>
> They have all kinds of theories,
> > non of them coming from a medical education, like
> > "exercise-induced endomorphins"-- well, how many
> > does it take?
>
> How many serotonins does it take to treat depression, huh Squiggles? Or how many dopamines? How many norepinephrines? Tell me, what exactly is the neurochemistry of your condition, bipolar disorder? Can you quantify it the way you expect others to quantify their treatments?
>
> JamalWell, this is not exactly bedtime reading, but:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1525098
they do know something about the neurochemistry
of Beepers.Squiggles
Posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 18:23:21
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » unbottled, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 15:18:15
> So, this person does not know what he or she
> is talking about.Linkadge is one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board. This is a fact.
Jamal
Posted by Deputy Racer on October 23, 2007, at 18:24:17
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 12:20:43
>
> I think the real reason that people like to discount the power of healthful lifestyles, stress reduction, exercise, and social support, is because it removes the guilt out of their decision to take medications, and sit on their
> behind all day.Please don't post anything which could lead others to feel accused or put down, and please be sensitive to others, which includes not implying that taking medications want to "sit on their behind all day."
If you or anyone else has any questions regarding the posting guidelines at this site, please read the FAQ, located at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil Follow ups to this administrative action should be directed to the Administration board and should themselves be civil.
Dr Bob has ultimate authority over all administrative issues at this site, and may choose to revise or reverse any actions taken by a deputy.
Deputy Racer
Posted by Deputy Racer on October 23, 2007, at 18:27:35
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » Squiggles, posted by unbottled on October 23, 2007, at 16:14:45
> But I know for
> sure in advance, no matter their method
> or enthusiasm, that they know squat
> about drama or having their
> life changed.
>
>Please don't post anything which could lead others to feel accused or put down, including suggesting that others have not suffered because they have found another answer than yours.
If you or anyone else has any questions regarding the posting guidelines at this site, please read the FAQ, located at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil Follow ups to this administrative action should be directed to the Administration board and should themselves be civil.
Dr Bob has ultimate authority over all administrative issues at this site, and may choose to revise or reverse any actions taken by a deputy.
Deputy Racer
Posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 18:30:05
In reply to Please be civil » unbottled, posted by Deputy Racer on October 23, 2007, at 18:27:35
I'm not the only one!!! Self-esteem!
Thanks Racer. I'll try to be good, really.
Squiggles
Posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 18:33:02
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Deputy Racer, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 18:30:05
> I'm not the only one!!! Self-esteem!
> Thanks Racer. I'll try to be good, really.
>
>
> SquigglesYa, but you got the first :)
Jamal
Posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 18:35:23
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 18:33:02
Stop it or we will both be sent to Eric's room. :-)
Squiggles
Posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 18:37:34
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Jamal Spelling, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 18:35:23
Hey, where's my PBC? $10 says I get the next one.
Jamal
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:11:06
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 14:41:02
>Really? Depression and bipolar disorders and >schizophrenia all have a majority of age onset.
>In this respect they are very much like other >genetically-keyed biological developments. One >example, is adolescence and all the hormonal >changes attending that period. It is usually >between 10-14. In the case of schizophrenia, >around 18, in bipolar around 28, in depression, >can be any time, but usually earlier than the >above. Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, later in >life, usually above 50.But how does that show that these individuals are doomed to destruction should they choose other routes for healing?
>That's because we don't know everything yet. >Some illnesses are successfully treated because >they have found the right drug. That took years >of research.No it didn't. It took a few accidental discoveries.
>Taking nothing at all is worse than taking >something that has some effect, though not the >best effect.Not necessarily.
>These illnesses may be cyclical but they do not >terminate like the flu. They are brain diseases >which must be corrected, like meningitis, or >enchephalitis, for example.Thats simply not true. There has not yet been one idetified gene or biological abnormalty which yet predicts that an individual will, with 100% assurance, get a disease. There is a gene/environment interaction. For instance, did you know that turmeric almost abolshes the development of alzheimer's plaques in mice who are genetically engineered to develop such plaques? Turmeric is not a drug, but in such models it can clearly prevent the development of a genetic "likelyhood". Seeing as we don't know the exact etilogy of such mental illnesses, we cannot say that our medications infact do anything for the root cause, let alone say that an individual cannot recover without them.
>That's because the majority do not improve. Once >you have manic-depression, your brain has >changed neurologically. It doesn't go back to >its pre-sick stage through a miracle or on its >own.Says who? Even if this is true, lithium doesn't cure bipolar disorder either. There are a number of people who manage their bipolar disorder with things like taurine and omega-3. But I suppose these people are quacks, and they never really had bipolar. You know, agents like omega-3 and taurine are studied at Harvard, but I suppose the guys at Harvard are quacks too who apparently like wasting their time studying agents with zero potential to treat Bipolar just because they like randomly wasting their time.
>You may suffer something else which is >misdiagnosed, resulting from stress, and that >group will be used by the anti-psychiatry >brigade to prove their point. But that group is >small and an exception.
Again, since we have no idea what causes depression we have no idea how it is to be cured or how it will recover. The drug Tianeptine is a perfect example. It works exactly the opposite to how conventional antidepressants work (ie it enhances the reuptake of serotonin), yet it is a clinically effective antidepressant. Oftentimes more effective than SSRI's. So basically, the "low serotonin" theory is bunk. So again, we've shown ourselves that we still don't know how antidepressants work. Therefore we cannot really say that people's claims about their recovery is bunk either. Turmeric is more potent in the forced swim test than is fluoxetine. Its not antipsychiatry, its just looking at options which psychiatry chooses to ignore. Its just like SJW. If it were a drug, it could be approved based on the number of studies in which it has already been shown sucessfull. Psychiatry doesn't care about it though. Taking SJW is not antipsychiatry.
>Remitting, only when it is exogenously causes, >as in grief for example. If it is a brain >change, it's a crapshoot to wait and see if and >when there will be a self-healing process of the >brain.
Actually thats not true. It has been known for a long time, that even severe endogenious depression will usually get better on its own within about a year. And again, the word "endogenious" is really untestable seeing as there we have *zero* tests to identify endogenious depression.
>Dramatic -- you give credit to bean sprouts, but >not to a genetic predisposition to some of these >problems. Diet and exercise help, but blood >pressure and cholesterol are not mental >disorders, though they like everything else in >the body can effect the brain.Your argument is making no sence. Mental illness is a medical disorder like is high blood pressure. If one can positivly influence one by diet, then it stands to reason that one might be able to affect the other with dietary manipulation. The etiology of schizophrenia could be highly dependant on oxidative processes. There was a recent study which showed that a diet of omega-3 and antioxidants prevented progression of schizophrenia prodrome more effectivly than olanzapine in "at risk" teens.
>Well, go ahead and exercise. In mixed states and >mania, some patients exercised themselves to >death because they could not stop. That's called >psycho-motor agitation.
Did I recomend exercise for mania?? Obviously not.
>Your references may be good clinical articles, >and exercise is good for anyone, but years of >medical research have been devoted to treating >with medication. I would exercising as a cure is >not mainstream. But if it helps you, you are >lucky.
I don't understand the above paragraph. Exercise for depression is actually very mainstream.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 20:19:39
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:11:06
Linkadge,
Are you really interested in alleviating the
horrible suffering of mental illness, or are
you trying to introduce new methods which have
not been tested on many people?You may never have experienced any of these
states, because i think that if you did, you
would either have more compassion, or rush
to the nearest pharmacy for anything to escape
the states people can fall into.Maybe they should train doctors with simulation
modules of these states. Mental illness is
a serious business, not to be taken lightly and
as part of general good health exercises.Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:21:06
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by unbottled on October 23, 2007, at 15:06:06
>The problem is that some folks are
>nostalgic for nineteenth century non-answers.
>Accusations of meds takers as "sitting on
>their behinds" is a dead giveaway.The 20th century is full of nonanswers too.
I never said that med-takers were sitting on their behinds. I said that those who claim that exercise has no impact on the course of depressive illness were probably using this as an excuse to sit on their behinds.
>Yes, we're finding that bottom-up improvement
>of the body improves the brain / mind to a
>surprising degree. But this is nothing compared
>to the improvements that can happen as a direct
>result of taking medications that correct
>actual imbalances in the brain / mind.Well, again. Seeing as no definitive chemical imballances have yet been identified, one cannot make the assumption that medications are correcting any imballences. Diabeties is not depression. The "low serotonin" hypothesis is used to give biochemical depression credability. No such imballence in serotonin is repeatedly provable in depresson. There is little to no proof that antidepressants correct the specific imballences that exist in depression, in the way that insulin treats diabeties. Antidepressants treat the symptoms, but they may or may not be treating the disease.
>Squiggles is right to be angry. Sometimes
>meds are only a crutch, but you don't kick the
>crutch away because you want suffering to
>be proof of wicked behavior.I never told *anybody* not to take their meds. The only thing that got me angry was when Squiggles claimes that people who are able to get better without medication never infact had true depression. I hate when people make depression into a "ingroup outgroup bias". "I'm sicker than you are" bla bla bla.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:28:03
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » unbottled, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 15:18:15
>I picked up on the "sit on your *ss and just
>take meds -- easy way out" line too.Again, thats not what I said. Siting on one's behind and taking meds is not really the best approach either.
a) I am not saying that exercise is the only
treatment for depression
b) I am not saying that it is more effective
than other treatments
c) I am not saying that exercise will cure
everbodyI am simply responding to the proposition made by Squiggles that people who are able to get better from depression with alternative approaches never really had depression to begin with.
The reason I was making a case for exercise, was to try and show that just because it is not a mediction doesn't mean it cannot do some pretty impressive things for the brain, and depression.
I cannot fathom why sombody would try to discount a treatment with which somebody improved, or to try and diminish the sevarity of their suffering becuase they happened to improve with alternative approaches.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:32:47
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness, posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 16:42:45
>I quite agree. Ironically this thread was >started writing that pharmaceuticals are the >only way to treat mental illness, that it is >wrong to discontinue a pharmaceutical regimen, >that other treatments are useless, and that >people who suggest differently should **** ***. >Or something to that effect.
>I am not aware that the use of pharmaceuticals >was discouraged anywhere in this thread.
Exactly my point. I don't know why people get so defensive when somebody says they got better without meds. Do they think that the fact that some people can improve without meds infringes on the validity of their suffering? Do they they think that sombody else's improvement off meds is somehow an accusation of their own choice of treatment?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:39:34
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » Jamal Spelling, posted by Squiggles on October 23, 2007, at 16:51:48
>Well, i'm not really angry. I am sorry
>my writing comes across that way. If i
>remember exercise, and vitamins and
>stuff like that was being proposed as
>an alternative to meds for mental illness.Yes. Actually vitamins, exercise, and other supplements are possable alternatives to treating mental illness. They may not work for everyone but they can help some.
>As for the causes, there may some as you say >which are not endogenous, and a preliminary >study into that is usually part of the course.
There is *zero* way to conclusivly separate exogenious depression from endogenious deprssion.
Even people with a high genetic load for depression, an environmental trigger is usually present.>I would like to my faith in doctors though, and >say that when they see what looks like manic->depression, it IS manic-depression, and the med >works, then that is the best you can get from >mental health care today.
That doesn't necessarily mean that the individual make the best treatment choice. Its not just antipsychiatry people who might want alternatives. It might be people who can't tollerate certain side effects, or those who don't want their kidneys or thyroid damaged etc etc.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 23, 2007, at 20:44:19
In reply to Re: That Way Lies Madness » Squiggles, posted by Jamal Spelling on October 23, 2007, at 17:29:04
>I have ever taken was a supplement called SAMe. >The effects were dramatic and pronounced, far >more so than the Zoloft, Celexa and Wellbutrin >that I have used over the years. As far as I'm >aware, SAMe is a prescription antidepressant in >Italy, so it's a case of one man's terrorist >being another man's freedom fighter.
Good example. SJW too is a prescription in Germany and is prescribed more often than fluoxetine. SAMe has been studied in some of the most severe depressions.
Linkadge
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