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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by elanor roosevelt on August 30, 2007, at 23:11:12
lousy mornings
i just stay still
i miss liking mornings
yes, i'm actually a person who likes to get out of bed
i rememberwaiting for my pdoc to get back to town
Posted by Phillipa on August 31, 2007, at 10:17:59
In reply to early morning brain chemistry, posted by elanor roosevelt on August 30, 2007, at 23:11:12
Me too. Even used to like to hang sheets out to dry. In my case too many things have happened to make me want to get up so I don't. Phillipa
Posted by JohnnyBLinux on September 1, 2007, at 0:17:41
In reply to early morning brain chemistry, posted by elanor roosevelt on August 30, 2007, at 23:11:12
Yep, I'm morning impaired...even afternoon impaired. Photophobia bothers me. My day gets started in the right direction once I get home from work and pop open that first beer or sip that glass of wine. I'm typically in a much better mood in the evenings. Perhaps I'm an undiagnosed vampire... ;-) Cheers
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 1, 2007, at 8:14:32
In reply to early morning brain chemistry, posted by elanor roosevelt on August 30, 2007, at 23:11:12
I feel the exact same way.
Even though Nardil helps me get up early (between 6-8am) I don't feel like doing anything until later.
Sometimes I wish I could hit the gym at 8 or 9am, but I can't. Ever. I need this little time to sit, wind down, go online, or read some magazine. Just relax.
Can't run errands. Can't go out. Can't go to the gym. I feel impaired too. I just cannot do anything until later in the day..
Why do we feel this way in the morning? Sometimes I feel like just going back to bed because I am so unhappy about being unable to do anything. It's bad..
Posted by satyam on September 1, 2007, at 18:33:29
In reply to early morning brain chemistry, posted by elanor roosevelt on August 30, 2007, at 23:11:12
Try to do some exercise or walking, you will feel much better. But you need to consistent and regular
Posted by KayeBaby on September 1, 2007, at 19:20:22
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry, posted by satyam on September 1, 2007, at 18:33:29
Me too. I drag all morning no matter when I actually got up. Really 3pm is the earliest I ever feel like getting around.
My brain doesn't want to shut down once it gets going and doesn't want to re-start after it's shut down. meds are the only thing I have ever found to give me any measure of control over this and it still takes plenty of discipline most of the time.
I have accepted it and have mostly been able to schedule my life accordingly.
Kaye
Posted by Jedi on September 2, 2007, at 1:31:22
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry, posted by KayeBaby on September 1, 2007, at 19:20:22
Hi Guys,
I'm on 90mg of Nardil and I'm one of those people whose depression is worse in the morning. When I can force myself to exercise it does help, but it is a major effort. I always feel a little better after about three cups of coffee. I probably need something stronger like methylphenidate or modafinil, but so far I haven't been able to talk my MD into these. There is also a timed released Ritalan-SR that is out in generic, similar to Concerta. You have to be really careful when taking amphetamine like medications with a MAOI; they are contraindicated. However, there are a lot of contraindicated meds and food that can be taken with caution when on a MAOI.
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 2, 2007, at 7:43:33
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry, posted by Jedi on September 2, 2007, at 1:31:22
>However, there are a lot of contraindicated meds and food that can be taken with caution when on a MAOI.
I don't understand what you mean by taking a contraindication 'with caution.' I mean, you take it, or you don't.
But to take it 'with caution'? Can you take 10mgs of Ritalin 'with caution' and the same amount 'without caution'? You're still taking it!
If someone could explain to me what those 'experienced' pdocs do in order to give you contraindications 'with caution' I'd really appreciate it.
(On a side note: Re your 90mgs of Nardil... have you ever had any problems with that dose? When I went on 90mgs some weeks ago, didn't last even 3 days on it because of severe signs of overdose (unbearable headaches after taking every daily Nardil dose.) Not even 75mgs worked for me--more signs of overdose on 75mgs. Have you had a single problem after going up on 90mgs? Thanks.)
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 2, 2007, at 8:10:57
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry, posted by KayeBaby on September 1, 2007, at 19:20:22
> Me too. I drag all morning no matter when I actually got up. Really 3pm is the earliest I ever feel like getting around.
>
> My brain doesn't want to shut down once it gets going and doesn't want to re-start after it's shut down. meds are the only thing I have ever found to give me any measure of control over this and it still takes plenty of discipline most of the time.Wow, I could have written that myself. Very well put--describes the feeling exactly right.
I used to get up at 10-12pm and felt very tired--and GUILTY--for being "lazy." My family always saw you as 'lazy' if you weren't up by 8am doing something--whatever that was.
Now I get up at 6-7am (thanks entirely to Nardil) and while I can come online, sit at my desk, read, make some coffee and breakfast, etc.. the minute I think about going out and hitting the gym or running an errand, I start feeling this urge to go back to bed to somehow "recover" from the lack of energy I feel.
Thinking of going out immediately makes me feel tired. And something tells me that sleeping a bit more will help me get up refreshed--even though I know that will NEVER be the case. I NEVER wake up refreshed and ready anymore. I'll wake up just as tired, more guilty, and the only thing that will force me to run some errands is the guilt of running out of time and knowing the place is possibly closing soon! How awful to have to act out of guilt all the time. But that's how my life has turned out thanks to my depression.
It's a horrible state, and yet Nardil hasn't fixed it. It gave me a great incentive by automatically waking me up pretty early. Yet, I still can't get over my sleeping late addiction and my morning lack of energy--just what you describing, the shutting down and restarting of your brain.
> I have accepted it and have mostly been able to schedule my life accordingly.
>Great for you. I haven't accepted it--it puzzles me and makes me upset. But I have scheduled my life accordingly since I have no other choice at the moment. It's either that, or nothing!
GI78
Posted by Jedi on September 2, 2007, at 14:22:28
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry » Jedi, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 2, 2007, at 7:43:33
Hi GI78,
In response to your questions:Some people could take 10mg of methylphenidate with 90mg of Nardil and have no problem with it. Somebody else might have a reaction. So with caution would mean to start with maybe 1/4 of the goal dosage and watch the BP very closely. If there is no reaction to the ultra small dose, go up a little and so on until the intended dosage is reached.
I have taken many meds and foods with Nardil that are officially contraindicated, among these:
nortriptyline
bupropion
codeine
non-tap beer
wine
whiskey
chocolate
mozzarella cheese
american cheese
processed cheese
fresh milk productsI am a lot bigger than you so 90mg does not even come close to the 1mg/kg dose for me. I don't have problems at this dosage except for the normal side effects of Nardil.
Be Well,
Jedi> >However, there are a lot of contraindicated meds and food that can be taken with caution when on a MAOI.
>
> I don't understand what you mean by taking a contraindication 'with caution.' I mean, you take it, or you don't.
>
> But to take it 'with caution'? Can you take 10mgs of Ritalin 'with caution' and the same amount 'without caution'? You're still taking it!
>
> If someone could explain to me what those 'experienced' pdocs do in order to give you contraindications 'with caution' I'd really appreciate it.
>
> (On a side note: Re your 90mgs of Nardil... have you ever had any problems with that dose? When I went on 90mgs some weeks ago, didn't last even 3 days on it because of severe signs of overdose (unbearable headaches after taking every daily Nardil dose.) Not even 75mgs worked for me--more signs of overdose on 75mgs. Have you had a single problem after going up on 90mgs? Thanks.)
Posted by elanor roosevelt on September 2, 2007, at 22:54:59
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry » Girlnterrupted78, posted by Jedi on September 2, 2007, at 14:22:28
my daughter is back in town and starts school on a few days
hoping the bad mom shame will give me a shovebut i should be clear
when there isn't anyone atound i'm not slow in the morning once i am put of bed i am moving right alongbut the getting out of bed
i just lie still and have these f*cking debates with myself
i cn't seem to move then i do and get scared o something and pull the covers over me head
fall back to sleep and have bad dreamsfor a while it seeemed i was just waking in that stage when you actually can't move
now i am wondering if this is an adderall hangover?
some sort of hours later crashactually since i started adderall i rarely go to the gym
seems to be activating in some realms and debilitating in others at the same time
Posted by Brody on September 2, 2007, at 23:12:54
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry, posted by elanor roosevelt on September 2, 2007, at 22:54:59
Hi,
This really describes what was going on with me for years, off and on. Mornings were my first experience of the addition of "anxiety" on top of my atypical MDD. Mornings were absolutely excruciating.
If I would mention it to my GP doc or a friend, I would get "Oh, nobody likes to get up in the morning." I'd be thinking, are you kidding me? This is torture, and you just aren't getting it.
This would happen if I took a nap during the daytime, too.... same waking up to horrible depression and anxiety. It got so that I dreaded going to bed a night because I knew the next thing to happen would be the dreaded: awakening!
Finally, the MAOI that I started taking 3 months ago has CURED the morning pain! The horses are getting fed at 8:00am instead of 11:00am, and I am actually happy to see them!
A recent thread on the topic of ADs suppressing REM sleep (and MAOIs in particular), has me thinking that there is a connection here. Anybody else?
Janet
Posted by Brody on September 2, 2007, at 23:20:31
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry, posted by Jedi on September 2, 2007, at 1:31:22
Hi Jedi,
Have you talked with your doctor about adding Provigil to your Nardil?
100mg has added the focus and concentration that was missing from my EMSAM alone. The EMSAM was great for lifting the black clouds and improving mood, but I did not get the motivation part that many EMSAMers have reported, so we added this.
My p-doc wouldn't go near the classic "stimulants" with MAOI, but she was willing to augment with this.
It seems to act very much like a stimulant for me.
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 3, 2007, at 1:56:11
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry elanor roosevelt, posted by Brody on September 2, 2007, at 23:12:54
Hi Janet,
What MAOI are you taking? That's amazing that it fully cured your morning pain.
I'm also on an MAOI (Nardil), and it has accomplished something miraculous as well. It's allowed me to wake up automatically at 6-7am every morning. I don't think I've ever been able to do that before entirely on my own (w/o alarm) and with such ease.
There's still, though, a component to my depression that doesn't let me get out on the street and start doing errands or going to the gym early. What I basically do is have breakfast, go online, read, and drink my coffee. I try to keep myself relaxed because I am too afraid that forcing myself to do something more difficult will trigger/worsen my depression, and I try to keep my depression at a minimum, so I treat myself like a baby. But I will be working slowly on changing my habits. I'll go with baby steps till I can do it without effort or depression.
As for the topic of MAOIs suppressing REM, it kind of scares me to think about it. The actual day I read that post, I began to wonder and get nervous. What if something really bad comes out the suppression of a natural, psychological process such as dreaming? What if dreaming is essential to our mental well-being and it ends up having atrocious effects.. I started thinking it could have some horrible results..
That night I was obsessing about the subject when going to sleep, and as I began falling asleep, I woke up and caught myself dreaming more than once. In one of my dreams I was in a boat with a lot of people. Then in another I was falling down the stairs and I woke up very anxious with my foot abruptly kicking in response to the fall.
So I figured I do dream. I just don't know for how long or what kind of dreams are, because after the initial dreams, I have no idea if there were any dreams the rest of the night.
I even dream while typing on my computer. When it's late at night, I begin falling asleep for short periods. Right now I just fell asleep for 5 minutes (it's 2:45am and I'm going to bed within minutes) and I just woke up and came up with some words that come from my dream which are totally unrelated to my life.
So I still have dreams, even if I'm on Nardil. Does anyone know why this is? Last time I read in the thread posted on this same site, that people on MAOI's don't dream. What's the deal then? Why do I dream?
Posted by KayeBaby on September 3, 2007, at 2:03:48
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry - Jedi, posted by Brody on September 2, 2007, at 23:20:31
My Dr allowed me to add adderall IR to my EMSAM 9mg patch is working like a charm.
After being so patient all summer, doing nothing much fun. Laying around all the time....I am up and at 'em, wanting to do things.
I am so greatful for a little upswing.
Kaye
Posted by Brody on September 3, 2007, at 8:32:07
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry, posted by Jedi on September 2, 2007, at 1:31:22
Hi again Jedi,
I just realized that the modafinil you can't have, and the Provigil I suggested, are the same.
Sorry about that... wish you could give it a try.
Janet
Posted by Brody on September 3, 2007, at 9:05:25
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry elanor roosevelt » Brody, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 3, 2007, at 1:56:11
> Hi Janet,
>
> What MAOI are you taking? That's amazing that it fully cured your morning pain.Hi, I use the EMSAM patch. I was up to the 12mg patch and overall mood improvement was great, except for the inconvenience of falling on my head from time to time due to orthostatic hypotension.... my husband found that to be annoying! Am back down to 9mg patch, and staying upright!
P-doc added 100mg Provigil to increase focus/concentration/motivation, but the way I gauge my level of depression is by those dreadful mornings, and you are right, it has been amazing.
> I'm also on an MAOI (Nardil), and it has accomplished something miraculous as well. It's allowed me to wake up automatically at 6-7am every morning. I don't think I've ever been able to do that before entirely on my own (w/o alarm) and with such ease. >That's tremendous!
> But I will be working slowly on changing my habits. I'll go with baby steps till I can do it without effort or depression. >
Baby steps are steps, too! Sounds like maybe you need time to gain some confidence in the strength of the remission you have experienced so far. I am grateful for every day that I feel better, and I try to stay positive that it will last.
> As for the topic of MAOIs suppressing REM, it kind of scares me to think about it. The actual day I read that post, I began to wonder and get nervous. What if something really bad comes out the suppression of a natural, psychological process such as dreaming? What if dreaming is essential to our mental well-being and it ends up having atrocious effects.. I started thinking it could have some horrible results.. >
Yes... Those ideas occurred to me as well. But when you find yourself plotting a way to avoid EVER having to experience the painful "wake-up" depression again, you sort of let those other concerns go!
> So I still have dreams, even if I'm on Nardil. Does anyone know why this is? Last time I read in the thread posted on this same site, that people on MAOI's don't dream. What's the deal then? Why do I dream? >
Dreams that I could recall upon awakening have always been very infrequent. I am not aware of any dreams since starting the EMSAM going on 4 months now. I don't know why you dream, unless dreams are possible without REM, or the Nardil isn't enough to suppress all REM for you?I could go into detail about the results of a sleep study I had done after being "diagnosed" with Fibromyalgia, (I don't have any of those symptoms anymore.... haven't for about 5 years... changed my diet) but I won't take up the space and your time here.
All the best,
Janet
Posted by Brody on September 3, 2007, at 9:08:14
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry elanor roosevelt, posted by Brody on September 3, 2007, at 9:05:25
Posted by chiron on September 3, 2007, at 21:44:37
In reply to Re: early morning brain chemistry, posted by elanor roosevelt on September 2, 2007, at 22:54:59
> now i am wondering if this is an adderall hangover?
how long have you been on adderall? i loved adderall the 1st week and then i seemed to go really up & down. after adding abilify i eventually ended up in the hospital.
that was 2 years ago. i'm still not well. for a while I never knew what kind of mood I was going to wake up with or how it was going to cycle throughout the day. then for a few months I had anxiety, that was much more extreme in the mornings. i woke up every morning at 5:30 am no matter what. i would usually jog, but that didn't help. i wasn't anxious about anything in particular, i just physically felt it.
now i am constantly waking up miserable in the mornings. i don't have the anxiety anymore (thank god), but it still sucks.
i want to know the same thing: what the h*ll is going on?
This is the end of the thread.
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