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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by GOGO on August 22, 2007, at 21:40:36
Well. 3 neurotransmitter stuff ... I get it. But if SSRI or others only affect 1 of the 3 neurotransmitters, then that creates another imbalance ... doesn't it -_-?
MAOI is called 'dirty' because they affect all three ... but wouldn't that create a new 'equilibirum' in the end =_=?
This was the way I was going to argue w/ an MD in case he doesn't want to give me nardil. about the side effects though ...
1. About weight gain: How severe is it? I follow a strict vegan diet, and drink green tea a lot. Is the weight gain due to the increase in appetite or do you just gain weight 'automatically' as if you're blowing up?
2. Other side effects ... flatulance ...? does OCD/ADD symptoms worsen w/ Nardil?
Posted by FredPotter on August 22, 2007, at 22:30:04
In reply to WHY NOT START W/ MAOI? + NARDIL SIDE EFFECTS ..., posted by GOGO on August 22, 2007, at 21:40:36
They're not the only neurotransmitters of course.
Side effects: weight gain happened to me without increase in eating. If you're a Vegan are you supplementing with B12? Sexual side effects ( what's answer?) Short shallow sleep without dreams. Low blood pressure esp on standing. Danger of fainting
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 23, 2007, at 0:03:46
In reply to Re: WHY NOT START W/ MAOI? + NARDIL SIDE EFFECTS ..., posted by FredPotter on August 22, 2007, at 22:30:04
Short shallow sleep without dreams?? Oh my. I had not noticed I didn't have dreams.. I mean, I don't even know if I've had them, as I hardly ever remember. Do we really not have any dreams anymore? Not at all? Is this a bad thing for us? Aren't dreams supposed to be psychological repetitions needed for some kind of emotional process in your mind? I heard this years ago, it could all be bs, but it stuck in my mind forever.
I do notice my sleep is shallow.. but if I get up in the middle of it to go to the bathroom, I can come back and fall right back to sleep.
I only "wake up" completely at 6-7am, regardless of the time I went to sleep. This is rather strange.. I still can't understand why this happens, but I'm happy to get up early everyday without effort.
Now I can be a night owl and a morning person at the same time on Nardil, lol.
Posted by FredPotter on August 23, 2007, at 15:29:23
In reply to Re: WHY NOT START W/ MAOI? + NARDIL SIDE EFFECTS . » FredPotter, posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 23, 2007, at 0:03:46
I'm the same. I love getting up early. Sometimes I lie there impatient for it to be 6 am so I can get up. The last I heard was dreaming has no purpose. Perhaps a way of alleviating the boredom of light sleep, but the experts keep changing their minds. In that awful book "Human Givens" they say REM is an anxious mind with the eyes looking around for danger. This is bs in my opinion. Have you ever seen anyone's eyes twitch in that mad fashion when they are in danger? Not at all
Posted by linkadge on August 23, 2007, at 21:58:34
In reply to Re: WHY NOT START W/ MAOI? + NARDIL SIDE EFFECTS . » girlnterrupted78, posted by FredPotter on August 23, 2007, at 15:29:23
>In that awful book "Human Givens" they say REM >is an anxious mind with the eyes looking around >for danger. This is bs in my opinion. Have you >ever seen anyone's eyes twitch in that mad >fashion when they are in danger? Not at all
Was he speaking completely literally? I know I have heard from a few other sources, that during REM sleep, there is some kind of emotional processing going on, processing of fear, emotion, danger etc.
When I discontiuned a heavy REM supressor (in my case clomipramine) I had terrable REM rebound which was accompanied by panic. I would wake up in a panic and the content always had to do with events of the day that frigtened me or caused me anxiety. Ie tests, deadlines, fear of future, fear of falling behind, etc.
The eyes moving around rapidly is indicitive of the emotional content of the memory. Have you ever noticed that when somebody asks you a question you always look up to the left or to the right? There is some eye link with memory retrieval. When the eyes are moving back and forth like is showing that the brain is acessing memory.
REM rebound can sometimes cause psychosis. Abrupt MAOI withdrawl can sometimes cause psychosis, as the REM rebound happens too quickly, information overload.When an AD cuts out REM sleep it is cutting out that stage of processing emotionally pertainant information. So, the stressfull events of the day just don't sink in, and you don't get depressed.
(thats at least how it was explained to me).
Linkadge
Posted by blueboy on August 27, 2007, at 14:22:31
In reply to WHY NOT START W/ MAOI? + NARDIL SIDE EFFECTS ..., posted by GOGO on August 22, 2007, at 21:40:36
The short answer: Almost certainly, no doctor is going to start you on an MAOI without trying one or two SSRI/SSNRI's first.
> Well. 3 neurotransmitter stuff ... I get it. >But if SSRI or others only affect 1 of the 3 >neurotransmitters, then that creates another >imbalance ... doesn't it -_-?
Medical science just doesn't understand neurology that accurately. There is no linear model for neurotransmitter deficiencies, much less for how drugs affect them. MAOI's only exist by accident, i.e. they were trying them for Parkinson's patients and noticed that the depressed ones seemed happier.
> MAOI is called 'dirty' because they affect all >three ... but wouldn't that create a new >'equilibirum' in the end =_=?Again, you're searching for a method of analysis that medical science is years or decades from being able to support. AFAIK, MAOI's are called "dirty" because they generally have so many side-effects. Understanding of how or why the side effects occur is incomplete.
> This was the way I was going to argue w/ an MD >in case he doesn't want to give me nardil. about >the side effects though ...
If you can get a competent psychiatrist (no mean feat), you might consider listening to him at least to start, instead of going in with a fixed idea.
> 1. About weight gain: How severe is it? I follow a strict vegan diet, and drink green tea a lot. Is the weight gain due to the increase in appetite or do you just gain weight 'automatically' as if you're blowing up?Nobody knows. I got moderate weight gain, which was not due to increased appetite, as far as I could tell.
> 2. Other side effects ... flatulance ...? does OCD/ADD symptoms worsen w/ Nardil?
>OCD symptoms should stay the same or possibly improve. I don't know much about ADD/ADHD, although depression commonly affects concentration and if Nardil works, it should improve concentration.
I thought I had pretty nearly every common side effect from Nardil, and flatulence wasn't one of them.
This is the end of the thread.
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