![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 42. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 10, 2007, at 10:06:59
I recently met a guy (23 years old) who was on Remeron for 8 months because of OCD. During his trial of Remeron, he completely lost sexual function. Then he went off Remeron, and he was NEVER able to recover it. It's been 2 years that he's been clean of antidepressants and he STILL suffers from sexual dysfunction and has become completely asexual.
He's been to several people for this: pdocs, therapists, doctors, neurologists, etc, and says there's no hope and that "doctors are the worst one's to go to because they refuse to believe these meds can cause long term damage"
This, even though there's substantial literature on mice who were given antidepressants and ended up no longer being sexual after stopping. Plus, there's substantial literature on overstimulation and downregulation of pleasure receptors by anti-depressants, according to what he's researched. He said his emotions are completely dead and he can't enjoy anything anymore, let alone sex.
I was wondering if anyone has any experience on this matter? The guy is in mental shock and keeps saying he's going to kill himself over this. He just can't bear a life like this. He's just 23, and he's sexually dysfunctional "for life" or so he thinks/has been told by specialists.
Is this something that can be reversed in any way? Or is he really disabled for life?
Posted by d0pamine on August 10, 2007, at 11:09:39
In reply to Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remeron, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 10, 2007, at 10:06:59
Ack!!! If I hadn't quit Parnate cold, over this very concern 2 days ago then I certainly would quit today after reading this. ("Brain Zaps" suck btw)
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 10, 2007, at 11:21:32
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero, posted by d0pamine on August 10, 2007, at 11:09:39
Do you know anything about the subject? What happened to you on Parnate? Sexual dysfunction too? Temporary? Permanent? Reversible?
Posted by d0pamine on August 10, 2007, at 12:27:07
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero » d0pamine, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 10, 2007, at 11:21:32
> Do you know anything about the subject? What happened to you on Parnate? Sexual dysfunction too? Temporary? Permanent? Reversible?
anorgasmia. and I sure hope it reverses. and soon. I feel very sorry for your friend. It sounds like a miserable situation.
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 10, 2007, at 12:58:10
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero, posted by d0pamine on August 10, 2007, at 12:27:07
Is it reversible? It's been 2 years. How long will it take to reverse, if ever? Does he need to do something about it or leave it alone?
Posted by Jedi on August 10, 2007, at 13:10:19
In reply to Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remeron, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 10, 2007, at 10:06:59
...
He said his emotions are completely dead and he can't enjoy anything anymore, let alone sex.
>
> I was wondering if anyone has any experience on this matter? The guy is in mental shock and keeps saying he's going to kill himself over this. He just can't bear a life like this. He's just 23, and he's sexually dysfunctional "for life" or so he thinks/has been told by specialists.
...Hi GI,
It sounds to me like he is severely depressed. Depression can wipe out the sex drive plus the ability to enjoy anything. It is more likely the depression or some other medication he is on, rather than the mirtazapine he took two years ago, that is killing his sex drive. Ask him what other meds he is taking?
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by King of Nothing on August 10, 2007, at 13:53:57
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remeron » Girlnterrupted78, posted by Jedi on August 10, 2007, at 13:10:19
> ...
> He said his emotions are completely dead and he can't enjoy anything anymore, let alone sex.
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone has any experience on this matter? The guy is in mental shock and keeps saying he's going to kill himself over this. He just can't bear a life like this. He's just 23, and he's sexually dysfunctional "for life" or so he thinks/has been told by specialists.
> ...
>
> Hi GI,
> It sounds to me like he is severely depressed. Depression can wipe out the sex drive plus the ability to enjoy anything. It is more likely the depression or some other medication he is on, rather than the mirtazapine he took two years ago, that is killing his sex drive. Ask him what other meds he is taking?
> Take care,
> Jedi
>I agree %100..if it was ONLY the remeron, it most likely would have returned to normal by now. I believe there's more to the story.
Ironically d0pamine, parnate made me as horny as a goat and orgasms were easily attainable!!
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 10, 2007, at 14:02:21
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remeron » Girlnterrupted78, posted by Jedi on August 10, 2007, at 13:10:19
He's clean of antidepressants now--for two years. And he claims he's not depressed. He just lost feelings of enjoyment due to his condition (the sexual dysfunction.)
He's 23--he used to have a healthy sexual life before this happened, and now he's got nothing other than shame and can't enjoy sex anymore, even though he keeps meeting girls--which makes matters worse.
He's been telling me he's suicidal and that he's been chickening out the few times he was ready to do it. But that's his thinking right now, just to really kill himself.
If he has any "depressive" feelings, they're only related to his condition, and not actual clinical depression alone. The reason he ever took antidepressants was not due to depression, but because he has OCD and his mom and shrink forced him to take Remeron.
Is there a cure for this? Or is he doomed to have no recovery?
Posted by d0pamine on August 10, 2007, at 14:06:17
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero » d0pamine, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 10, 2007, at 12:58:10
> Is it reversible? It's been 2 years. How long will it take to reverse, if ever? Does he need to do something about it or leave it alone?
I can't answer that from personal experience as this is my first time through this. Looking back through other posts I see it both ways. The majority seem to resolve in a few weeks or months. I didn't notice anyone having gone that long. I'm sorry, perhaps someone else will have a more informed answer.
Posted by Sigismund on August 10, 2007, at 14:42:10
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remeron » Girlnterrupted78, posted by Jedi on August 10, 2007, at 13:10:19
It can still happen without ADs.
There is no guarantee that anyone will be able to enjoy life or sex after 23, or indeed after any age you want to mention.
Why? Who knows?
Does calling it depression or whatever make any difference?
It could be anything.
The world is toxic and we are vulnerable, evidently.The thing is, how can we live to reverse these long term f*ck ups?
That's how I see it.
Posted by yznhymer on August 10, 2007, at 18:14:15
In reply to Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remeron, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 10, 2007, at 10:06:59
Whether he is or isn't 'doomed for life', the answer is of course he isn't! I mean, there is always hope. He's 23 - there are all kinds of possibilities, he's got time and youth on his side here. And apparently somebody who cares enough about him to post some questions to find him some help.
Has he had a good physical to rule out medical causes... seen a urologist? Has he tried any ED medications? Other medications? Sex therapy? He needs to see a specialist.
And I know you said he says he's not depressed but when you're suicidal, you're depressed. This is not some b*dass dude hunkered down in a bunker who wants to shoot himself to avoid capture by Russian forces encircling Berlin in 1945. This is someone who wants to end his life because the pain of his situation is unbearable and he has no hope that it can change. I'd bet he's got other symptoms of depression too. In any case, a professional ought to evaluate that.
People can get depressed about actual real things; depression can be precipitated by real events... depression doesn't have to be a stand alone condition that self-generates from some internal malfunction. Just like the external event of therapy can relieve depression, external events in one's life can precipitate it. And then it can take on a life of its own.
His lack of enjoyment sounds like another symtom of depression to me. Whether the sexual dysfunction is the chicken or the egg, dealing with his mental state is bottom line critical here.
Good luck to you and your friend. As someone who's wangage has been awol from time to time because of AD's, I can empathise with his loss. Personally, I'd rather be depressed with functional equipment than the other way around. Being depressed WITH dysfunctional equipment has got to truly suck. Try to help him move ahead on faith alone, if necessary, to take the steps to find a resolution... I bet he will.
Y
Posted by infectedmushrooms on August 11, 2007, at 1:24:25
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero, posted by Sigismund on August 10, 2007, at 14:42:10
This is the exact thing that happened to me I when I was 21...I lost my sex drive instantly when I started risperdal with lexapro...I was misdiagnosed by the way as well b/c I the drug for chronic headpains that was a result of a dislocated jaw that made my anxiety so much worse...As a result I took the drug Risperdal for about 3 months... before that I was horny as hell just taking ssris...Then after I got off the drug taking 3-4 mg a day 3 months later my sex drive never returned...I feel like my life is destroyed as well and I am currently trying to reverse the side effects through organic foods and supplements but unfortunately nothing has worked yet..I stopped all drugs in november 06 after being on mostly ssris for 3 years with my small bought with risperdal...I am almost 23 now and it has been a year and a half since taking Risperdal...And i feel my life is destroyed as well...I can never go out anymore and before I was horny as hell now I feel like my emotions are shot and my hormone tests come back very very low for someone my age...Also there is a thing called PSSD where people lose their sex drives just from SSRIS which never happened to be but I can believe it b/c everyone reacts differently to drugs...I also have a numbness in my genitals which goes away sometimes after I take certain supplements that effect neurotransmiiters..I can not get erections for my life anymore before I got throbbing ones just from the wind....I also know other 2 other people that lost their sex drive after taking risperdal and it essentially is permanent damage in my opinion...But here's the thing I think it can be reversed with nutrition and supplementation, exercise and time...The brain does regenerate but not under stress...who knows how long it will take to get back...Another problem with the rat theory is that rats only live 2 years max and the doses given to rats are much larger and their brain structure is a lot different than that of humans...Although it seems we shouldn't negate that fact either bc relying on rat studies can serve to prevent these potentially life altering side effect in humans as well...I sometimes want to kill myself b/c my life is a living hell b/c of what risperdal did to my sex drive...And before that drug I think I was hypersexual even on ssris....:(
Posted by Quintal on August 11, 2007, at 15:17:43
In reply to Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remeron, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 10, 2007, at 10:06:59
Remeron is sometimes used to reverse sexual dysfunction caused by SSRIs, so he's been unlucky there. Has he tried a dopamine agonist such as Requip (ropinirole)? They boost libido as a side effect and are sometimes used off-label to treat SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction.
I think, as others have suggested, that he may still be depressed and this is contributing to the low libido. There is a kindling effect with libido, where one orgasm stimulates appetite for the next. This 'kindling' effect might have been dampened down while his libido was low during the Remeron trial, and has stayed low because his depression returned kept his libido low. So a drug like Requip may help re-ignite 'the fires of passion' once more. Wellbutrin is another option if he's still depressed. Wellbutrin is also used off-label to treat SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction because of its dopamine-elevating action.
Q
Posted by infectedmushrooms on August 11, 2007, at 16:45:11
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero » Girlnterrupted78, posted by Quintal on August 11, 2007, at 15:17:43
I myself have tried selegiline/ENSAm to try to reverse the problem as well as wellbutrin but they actually made me worse although wellbutrin slightly enhance orgasm but did not improve impotence...The problem is you have to know what the receptors the original drug targets and also what amino acids where depleted and the neurotoxicity of the drug in one's system...His immune system could have been weak to begin with from stress or vitamin deficiencies when he took the drug which made his receptors more sensitive...I find the only thing that is starting to give me some libido back are whey protein...liver supporting supplements...immune enahcing supplements like acidophilus and vitamins...adaptogens and specific smart drugs need to be tried as well for NGF as well as longer periods of abstinence from sexual activity...I am currently on Piracetam and may try to hit another cholinergenic to get things jump started...There is a board I belong to where people lost their sex drives from over-masturbation and drugs as well...http://recover.forumup.org/
You might want to point him in that direction....I don't believe depression is the cause of his sex based on my own experience...I know I was horny and the drugs took that away from me and I expected to be my old horny self once I was off them... I do believe attitude is the most important thing in healing...I am depressed but that never took away my sex drive before until I took drugs...Teens are depressed all the time and they don't lose their sex drives either...When your at an age where your hormones are supposed to be high depression won't effect your drive too much which supports why it is the drugs that did this.....But going to doctors and specialists is probably the worst route...So is over researching and thinking its hopeless...No one knows how these drugs work in the brain they have ideas and no one can say this or that is permanent...Cell destruction can be permanent with chronic use of meth or cocaine even risperdal and other neuroleptics...Thats why people with parkinson's lose their sex drive and they become hypersexual
on their l-dopa drugs b/c it has to do with neurotransmitters...The effects of those drugs where off after time due to further liver toxicity and further ultrasensitization of dopamine which leads to desensitization of dopamine neurons or the destruction of them and you start out with 40,000 and don't lose any until you reach the age of 40 unless you take a neuroleptic you lose a whole bunch...That's why people that take neuroleptics too long become impotent themselves and leads to TD b/c of neurotransmitter and liver malfunction as well as parkinsons which TD essentially is in drug-induced format...
The drug he took may not have been a neuroleptic but anything altering neurotransission in the brain can change gene expression and that too can be reversed through change of attitude and other ways...The body is remarkable in its abiliy to heal when everything is still intact...I mean he didn't lose a limb or became paralyzed...I think he will recover 100% once he learns to settle down accept the situation as it is and try his best to get his drive back....
You can say it is depression that did this but the way the post was written I can really relate...the drug definitely f*ked up his drive...It is up to him ultimately to get it back with trial and error...Everyone responds differently and can be more or less sensitive to certain drugs...I was ultra sensitive to risperdal which is why I lost my sex drive on it even after almost 2 years off it..I have spent countless hours researching and believe I may know how to fix this...Like I said in the previous post being as stress free as possible, diet, exercise, and time and specific smart drugs and supplements will probably allow him to recover 100% it is just a matter of the will of the individual...
Posted by Quintal on August 11, 2007, at 17:05:52
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero, posted by infectedmushrooms on August 11, 2007, at 16:45:11
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 12, 2007, at 0:08:15
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero, posted by infectedmushrooms on August 11, 2007, at 16:45:11
Thanks for your message, infectedmushrooms.
> I myself have tried selegiline/ENSAm to try to reverse the problem as well as wellbutrin but they actually made me worse although wellbutrin slightly enhance orgasm but did not improve impotence...
Does Selegiline is known for improving libido? I know Wellbutrin supposedly is prescribed along with SSRI's that have as a side effect decreased libido. But I wonder if it would be a good idea for him to start trying drugs and everything out there? Or is it better to remain clean and try natural ways?
>>>The problem is you have to know what the receptors the original drug targets and also what amino acids where depleted and the neurotoxicity of the drug in one's system...
Yeah, that's exactly what he says. He knows it's got to do with the receptors and possibly neurotransmitter depletion. I've heard of something called amino acid therapy, where they get a urine sample to determine what neurotransmitters are deficient. Then they give you supplements like 5HTP, L-tyrosine, Gaba, etc. I've haven't tried it with a real specialist, but I read a book called mood cure and on my own took several supplements. It didn't do anything for me, but again, I didn't have a urine sample or did it with a specialist. Are you familiar at all with that method?
>I find the only thing that is starting to give me some libido back are whey protein...liver supporting supplements...immune enahcing supplements like acidophilus and vitamins...adaptogens and specific smart drugs need to be tried as well for NGF as well as longer periods of abstinence from sexual activity...
Are you serious? So how much progress do you think such proteins and supplements have accomplished in your recovery? Let's say, from 0-10 (zero being completely impotent) where were you first, and where are you now after those supplements, and in how long?
>I am currently on Piracetam and may try to hit another cholinergenic to get things jump started...There is a board I belong to where people lost sex drives from over-masturbation and drugs as well...http://recover.forumup.org/
Thanks for the website. I will let him know. So how do you know that the whey protein and supplements made the trick, if you're also taking piracetam? You seem to be taking several things, so it's hard to pinpoint which one might be helping.
> I don't believe depression is the cause of his sex based on my own experience...Agreed.
>But going to doctors and specialists is probably the worst route...So is over researching and thinking its hopeless...
Why is over researching hopeless? Isn't that what you've done and what we'd be doing if we go to that website? It's research and more research.. which needs to be done in order to target the right brain receptor.
>Thats why people with parkinson's lose their sex drive and they become hypersexual on their l-dopa drugs b/c it has to do with neurotransmitters...
What is l-dopa? And would that work for my friend?
> The drug he took may not have been a neuroleptic but anything altering neurotransission in the brain can change gene expression and that too can be reversed through change of attitude and other ways...
Change of attitude? I don't understand that. How can a change of attitude cure a neurotransmitter problem? That sounds like magic "I change my attitude and my problems are gone..." It's not clear what you're trying to say there.
>The body is remarkable in its abiliy to heal when everything is still intact...I mean he didn't lose a limb or became paralyzed...I think he will recover 100% once he learns to settle down accept the situation as it is and try his best to get his drive back....
Again, that sounds like magic. Accept the situation and you'll get cured? How would you get cured by accepting the situation? I've accepted that I'm depressed since 12 years ago. That didn't cure me. That just put me en route to find the cure through trying ADs and therapy, but I've tried tons of things (including diet and exercise) and I'm still not cured.
>I have spent countless hours researching and believe I may know how to fix this...Like I said in the previous post being as stress free as possible, diet, exercise, and time and specific smart drugs and supplements will probably allow him to recover 100% it is just a matter of the will of the individual...
I thought you said that over-research and thinking about it wouldn't work. But it's working for you.. When you say you 'may' know how to fix it, you mean with diet, exercise and time, smart drugs & supplements? Has that worked for you already, or you're making a supposition?
Well, thanks a lot for the info. If you could clarify the points I didn't understand I'd really appreciate it. I will pass the website on to my friend as well..
Thanks again,
GI78
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 12, 2007, at 0:38:16
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remeron » Girlnterrupted78, posted by yznhymer on August 10, 2007, at 18:14:15
I'm pretty positive he's not clinically depressed. I mean, he could be traumatized and shocked over his loss of sexual function. But he doesn't suffer from 'clinical depression'--the kind that afflicts people (like us) for life and that not even life positive events will reverse.
He's just in shock and traumatized after suffering from such an meaningful loss for him.
Imagine losing a leg or an arm. Would you be depressed knowing you lost your arm forever? If this happened to a healthy person, he would not necessarily become clinically depressed, but he'd be traumatized and overwhelmed, and it would take him a long time to come to terms with it.
And in a guy like him, who used to be outgoing and sexual (not depressed or phobic), it is quite a shock and a huge loss, because an amazing part of his life is GONE. He's no longer able to date, after having amazing dates in his life. Dating is embarrassing and shameful, so no more dates, ever.
So I'm positive he doesn't suffer from depression, although it would be understandable for someone to get depressed over a terrible life situation like this.
However, that supposed 'depression' that you mention is NOT the 'cause' of the sexual dysfunction. Rather, the sexual dysfunction would be the cause of the 'supposed' depression, if he were to become depressed over this.
No chicken or egg situation.
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 12, 2007, at 0:38:49
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remeron » Girlnterrupted78, posted by yznhymer on August 10, 2007, at 18:14:15
I'm pretty positive he's not clinically depressed. I mean, he could be traumatized and shocked over his loss of sexual function. But he doesn't suffer from 'clinical depression'--the kind that afflicts people (like us) for life and that not even life positive events will reverse.
He's just in shock and traumatized after suffering from such an meaningful loss for him.
Imagine losing a leg or an arm. Would you be depressed knowing you lost your arm forever? If this happened to a healthy person, he would not necessarily become clinically depressed, but he'd be traumatized and overwhelmed, and it would take him a long time to come to terms with it.
And in a guy like him, who used to be outgoing and sexual (not depressed or phobic), it is quite a shock and a huge loss, because an amazing part of his life is GONE. He's no longer able to date, after having amazing dates in his life. Dating is embarrassing and shameful, so no more dates, ever.
So I'm positive he doesn't suffer from depression, although it would be understandable for someone to get depressed over a terrible life situation like this.
However, that supposed 'depression' that you mention is NOT the 'cause' of the sexual dysfunction. Rather, the sexual dysfunction would be the cause of the 'supposed' depression, if he were to become depressed over this.
No chicken or egg situation.
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 12, 2007, at 1:02:51
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero, posted by infectedmushrooms on August 11, 2007, at 16:45:11
One more thing:
My friend wasn't taking Remeron alone. He was also taking Seroquel and Concerta along with Remeron.
I wonder if the combination might have caused the permanent sexual dysfunction, or if it was the Remeron alone?
He says he's pretty sure that it was the Remeron that caused the damage. Supposedly, the manufacturer of Remeron claims that there's no sexual side effects associated with Remeron.
However, new updates on Remeron show that 40% of people taking it experience sexual side effects.
Could this be possible? I haven't seen the statistics, but my friend has and that's what he found.
Any info on this?
Thanks
Posted by yznhymer on August 12, 2007, at 2:18:38
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero » yznhymer, posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 12, 2007, at 0:38:49
> I'm pretty positive he's not clinically depressed. I mean, he could be traumatized and shocked over his loss of sexual function. But he doesn't suffer from 'clinical depression'--the kind that afflicts people (like us) for life and that not even life positive events will reverse.
>
> He's just in shock and traumatized after suffering from such an meaningful loss for him.
>
> Imagine losing a leg or an arm. Would you be depressed knowing you lost your arm forever? If this happened to a healthy person, he would not necessarily become clinically depressed, but he'd be traumatized and overwhelmed, and it would take him a long time to come to terms with it.
>
> And in a guy like him, who used to be outgoing and sexual (not depressed or phobic), it is quite a shock and a huge loss, because an amazing part of his life is GONE. He's no longer able to date, after having amazing dates in his life. Dating is embarrassing and shameful, so no more dates, ever.
>
> So I'm positive he doesn't suffer from depression, although it would be understandable for someone to get depressed over a terrible life situation like this.
>
> However, that supposed 'depression' that you mention is NOT the 'cause' of the sexual dysfunction. Rather, the sexual dysfunction would be the cause of the 'supposed' depression, if he were to become depressed over this.
>
> No chicken or egg situation.Clinical depression does not necessarily afflict people for life, nor is it necessarily immune to treatment or even resolving itself for that matter. All cases are not like the ones we, ourselves, suffer.
As you know, the two hallmarks of depressions are loss of interest in or pleasure from activities that you used to enjoy, and feeling sad, helpless or hopeless. There are other symptoms as well, but your friend says his emotions are completely dead and he can't enjoy ANYTHING anymore, and he is hopeless to the point of not wanting to live.
Depression in response to a traumatic event or condition is called an Adjustment Disorder. It is one of the major types of depression:
"Adjustment disorders. If a loved one dies, you lose your job or you receive a diagnosis of cancer, it's perfectly normal to feel tense, sad, overwhelmed or angry. Eventually, most people come to terms with the lasting consequences of life stresses, but some don't. This is what's known as an adjustment disorder — when your response to a stressful event or situation causes signs and symptoms of depression. Some people develop an adjustment disorder in response to a single event. In others, it stems from a combination of stressors. Adjustment disorders can be acute (lasting less than six months) or chronic (lasting longer). Doctors classify adjustment disorders based on the primary signs and symptoms of depression or anxiety." Mayo Clinic
If he's not coming to terms with his situation and the shock and trauma are not resolving themselves - and I would say if he's feeling suicidal it sounds like they aren't, then he may very well have an adjustment disorder, i.e., depression.
My point about the chicken and the egg is it doesn't really matter which came first. If he's depressed now, 1) it could be perpetuating the sexual dysfunction even if something else caused it and, more importantly 2) if he's suicidal, hopeless, traumatized, then he should be getting some professional help. At the very least, in my humble opinion, he should have a professional, not you, me or himself (under the circumstances) assess whether he's clinically depressed or not.
I'm not suggesting that his sexual problem is not real or was not caused by his experience with medication. I am not suggesting that it did not cause his current state of mind. I am not even suggesting that it doesn't need to be addressed directly as a problem in and of itself. All I'm suggesting is that his state of mind can very well be contributing to the perpetuation of the problem and might need to be addressed as part of the solution. More importantly, because if he's suicidal his life is at stake, his mental state in and of itself sounds serious enough to warrant professional attention.
I really do hope your friend finds some relief soon and I commend your efforts to help him. Good luck to you both.
Y
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 12, 2007, at 6:17:47
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero » girlnterrupted78, posted by yznhymer on August 12, 2007, at 2:18:38
Thank you for your input, yznhymer.
The thing I still don't understand is, how would depression 'cause' or 'perpetuate' sexual dysfunction?
Like infectedmushrooms said, even adolescents who are clinically depressed have strong libidos despite their inability to use them due to their depression/social anxiety.
Depression doesn't 'cause' sexual dysfunction. Antidepressants do.
I agree that being suicidal requires professional help. You're right on that. However, my friend thinks that seeing doctors has been his worst experience, as they simply don't believe that those "glorious" medications could cause long-term damage. Do you think he wants to see more doctors?
I do believe he should maybe see a therapist to deal with this, but again, a therapist won't solve the issue, either. It will only help him come to terms with it, and while he might need that, my purpose here is to find a chemical culprit and the solution. I'll speak to him about the therapist, but I'm interested in the topic of neurotransmitters and chemical solutions for him, so if you know of any, I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks again,
GI78
Posted by infectedmushrooms on August 12, 2007, at 12:04:12
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero » infectedmushrooms, posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 12, 2007, at 0:08:15
"Does Selegiline is known for improving libido? I know Wellbutrin supposedly is prescribed along with SSRI's that have as a side effect decreased libido. But I wonder if it would be a good idea for him to start trying drugs and everything out there? Or is it better to remain clean and try natural ways? "
Selegiline effects primarily dopamine pathways and is used to enhance libido and lift depression...On the bad side it can increase heart rate and increase anxiety...It does also effect serotonin receptors...I wouldn't recommend a prescription for ENSAM if were to try it only the pills that metabolize in the body which you can get on the internet fairly cheap and start with small doses and cycle and work his way up...I have tried the patch not the pills and it messed me up worse I think b/c it hits the brain too quickly... but I have heard the pills are more tolerated and not as bad for the body...
>>
> Yeah, that's exactly what he says. He knows it's got to do with the receptors and possibly neurotransmitter depletion. I've heard of something called amino acid therapy, where they get a urine sample to determine what neurotransmitters are deficient. Then they give you supplements like 5HTP, L-tyrosine, Gaba, etc. I've haven't tried it with a real specialist, but I read a book called mood cure and on my own took several supplements. It didn't do anything for me, but again, I didn't have a urine sample or did it with a specialist. Are you familiar at all with that method?
Amino acid therapy seems like bs...Urine samples are not however b/c they should tell you what neurotransmitters are not in optimal range... but to use an IV and inject aminos for several hours at a time would just shock the body...The body can only take so much at a time on a consistent basis...Yes I have heard of it and considered doing it but realized after more research things need to be done slowly for the body to heal...
>
> >I find the only thing that is starting to give me some libido back are whey protein...liver supporting supplements...immune enahcing supplements like acidophilus and vitamins...adaptogens and specific smart drugs need to be tried as well for NGF as well as longer periods of abstinence from sexual activity...
>
"Are you serious? So how much progress do you think such proteins and supplements have accomplished in your recovery? Let's say, from 0-10 (zero being completely impotent) where were you first, and where are you now after those supplements, and in how long?"Before supplements I am zero(flatline) with them in my system it hovers around 2 to 3 for a few hours and I can even get erections and the numbness in my genitals goes away then it goes back to 0 at certain parts of the day...But I am becoming more specific with them and using trial and error with the right ones and also it is important to cycle them and only take precursors to neurotranmitters so the body doesn't think it has to stop making them...I am slowly learning everything I told you..I am no where near healed I just uncovered the aspects of healing through various books and reading as well as with with all the reading and testimonials on the internet I have done for the past 8 months...
>
> >I am currently on Piracetam and may try to hit another cholinergenic to get things jump started...There is a board I belong to where people lost sex drives from over-masturbation and drugs as well...http://recover.forumup.org/
>
>"Thanks for the website. I will let him know.
So how do you know that the whey protein and supplements made the trick, if you're also taking piracetam?"Sometimes one drug will work a few times and have what I call "a wear and tear effect" You are actually overexerting and ultra-sensitizing whatever is left and sometimes this can give your sex drive back for a day or 2 but can prolong healing if you keep taking that drug...I have heard of people completely reversing their Sexual Dysfunction for 1 or 2 days with say Dostinex which is a strong D2 receptor but then it flatlines at zero on subsequent doses...My theory for that is deficiencies of specific aminos in the brain but no one really knows why...
"You seem to be taking several things, so it's hard to pinpoint which one might be helping."
>"A whey protein contains every amino in the book...Yes it is hard to say...But I think Piracetam is giving more emotion back so I am working currently on acetycholine neurotransmitters then dopamine which I know was also depleted/destroyed...My theory is you have to work with the body as a whole as well...You can keep taking dopamine without balancing out another nuerotranmitter and also from my my own hypothesis based on some research one neurotransmitter has to be increased first for the other one to become effective again...Trial and error again like I said...No one really knows..."
> > I don't believe depression is the cause of his sex based on my own experience...
>
> "Agreed."
>
> >But going to doctors and specialists is probably the worst route...So is over researching and thinking its hopeless...
>
> "Why is over researching hopeless? Isn't that what you've done and what we'd be doing if we go to that website? It's research and more research.. which needs to be done in order to target the right brain receptor.">>I shouldn't have said it the way I did...I easily contradicted myself...What I mean is researching on hopeless aspects of the drug...I actually over-researched into all the negativity of it and joined forums where people say it is hopeless or its permanent with the "presenting facts"..My research now is now in a more positive frame for example seeing what supplements increase GABA, how to take this supplement, what foods should I take, what did the drug deplete...I'm sorry about not being clear before....You may still see that as being contradictory its kind of hard to explain in words...
>
> Thats why people with parkinson's lose their sex drive and they become hypersexual on their l-dopa drugs b/c it has to do with neurotransmitters...
>
> "What is l-dopa? And would that work for my friend?"
> Any anti-parkinsons drug "MAY" work but like I said about the "wear and tear" be careful...He may want to try something like Adderral or ritalin as I heard of people actually reversing their symptoms of SD by cycling them...Make sure he cycles if he were to try them starting at as low dose as possible then working his way up... I still haven't tried any of those yet...Also I don't think they are bad drugs compared to the newer drugs today they are also considered nootropics...But safety depends on how it is used and time period b/c I have heard of people becoming impotent on using ritalin or adderral too long without cycling..They are essentially amphetamines in pill form but relatively safer and controlled..It depends on what receptors were depleted/destroyed so they may or may not have an effect although I would say most likely he could get an instant one but don't know how well his system could take considering I don't know which of his cells are ultra or de-sensitized..On one hand it has been 2 years without drugs in his system so I think it most likely will work for him...> > The drug he took may not have been a neuroleptic but anything altering neurotransission in the brain can change gene expression and that too can be reversed through change of attitude and other ways...
>
> "Change of attitude? I don't understand that. How can a change of attitude cure a neurotransmitter problem? That sounds like magic "I change my attitude and my problems are gone... It's not clear what you're trying to say there.">What I am saying is change in attitude can change gene expression and that increases NK cells in the body...Natural Killer cells...People who are depressed have less NK cells...They are important for immunity and body repair...Good attitude also increases endorphins also essential for brain repair...Meditation is shown to increase GABA so is exercise...Change in attitude must be long term however maybe a couple months to start seeing a real consistent concrete change...I have heard of people doing this and actually got better although not 100% but sometimes close...I still think supplements are necessary however in attaining 100% libido...I have not mustered up the stregnth yet to do this complete attitude reversal but I am working on it...
> >The body is remarkable in its abiliy to heal when everything is still intact...I mean he didn't lose a limb or became paralyzed...I think he will recover 100% once he learns to settle down accept the situation as it is and try his best to get his drive back....
>
"Again, that sounds like magic. Accept the situation and you'll get cured? How would you get cured by accepting the situation? I've accepted that I'm depressed since 12 years ago. That didn't cure me. That just put me en route to find the cure through trying ADs and therapy, but I've tried tons of things (including diet and exercise) and I'm still not cured."Accepting means just stop for a second and listen...You have no sex drive right now b/c of those f*kin drugs...Yes...But I am going to get it back...Don't accept that it will never come back but accept where you are at right "NOW"...You cannot change the fact these drugs f*ked up your life even after taking them up until this point...But accept the fact that you cannot change the fact the situation at the current moment exists...That kind of thing..But "attitude" is the number one thing in healing according to books I have been reading...Again I can't muster up that attitude yet personally but I believe in it...
>I have spent countless hours researching and believe I may know how to fix this...Like I said in the previous post being as stress free as possible, diet, exercise, and time and specific smart drugs and supplements will probably allow him to recover 100% it is just a matter of the will of the individual...
>
"I thought you said that over-research and thinking about it wouldn't work. But it's working for you.. When you say you 'may' know how to fix it, you mean with diet, exercise and time, smart drugs & supplements? Has that worked for you already, or you're making a supposition?"Before I was over-researching risperdal and how in rats it destroyed their sex drives and organs etc...I now am researching more positive aspects on the brains ability to heal with proper diet nutrition healthy habits etc...Over-researching isn't bad just depending on the subject of what researched..I even block out certain sites now with my router but do occasionally check in on them every month or so for more information...
> "Well, thanks a lot for the info. If you could clarify the points I didn't understand I'd really appreciate it. I will pass the website on to my friend as well..
> Thanks again,
> GI78"
>
> NP,,,and believe me I am just as frustrated as your friend...and I am basically the same age I'll be 23 in about a month and the sad thing is girls are coming up to me now its weird being in this state...My life has literally been hell for 5 years b/c of a dislocated jaw which caused pain and anxiety 24/7 and now I have this to deal with this as well...I was horny as hell even in that state so you see anxiety and depression didn't do sh*t to me...It was the drugs... Sometimes I feel cursed but maybe someday I will find nirvana...I wish your friend all the best and I am confident that he can heal 100% its just a matter of applying things I mentioned which is way easier said than done and its not an easy route to doing trial and error with drugs and supplements..He also needs support of people around him which is why I think you are a great person for trying to help him along with this..he would have never had to face any of this if it wasn't for the drugs that put him under....Although people will say it is depression etc or trauma/shock that he lost it while on the drug this just is not true...He knows his body better than anyone else and b/c there are thousands out there just like him it puts a lot more credence to what he says despite the f*kin drug corporations not owning up to it which is why it is so hard for people to believe your friend...
The internet is the only source people would admit sh*t and you have to take what you read out there with a grain of salt sometimes but usually a lot of sh*t is true as well...b/c who the f*k in their right minds would say my sex drive never came back after taking drugs even on the internet...And if you try to take it to court or sue a drug company how could you win when your only source is people on the internet who took drugs for depression and anxiety to begin with...The only evidence would be if someone took a baseline hormones blood test then after taking the drugs it was radically altered ...its a f*ked up world we are living in where money > morality....
Posted by infectedmushrooms on August 12, 2007, at 13:21:03
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero » infectedmushrooms, posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 12, 2007, at 1:02:51
> One more thing:
>
> My friend wasn't taking Remeron alone. He was also taking Seroquel and Concerta along with Remeron.
>
> I wonder if the combination might have caused the permanent sexual dysfunction, or if it was the Remeron alone?
>
> He says he's pretty sure that it was the Remeron that caused the damage. Supposedly, the manufacturer of Remeron claims that there's no sexual side effects associated with Remeron.
>
> However, new updates on Remeron show that 40% of people taking it experience sexual side effects.
>
> Could this be possible? I haven't seen the statistics, but my friend has and that's what he found.
>
> Any info on this?
>
> Thanks
>
> Any cocktail of meds can cause synnergistic reactions with other drugs...for example when I took risperdal i took it with max dose of zoloft...In the official documentation on their website it says when taking with Fluorexetine it can increase plasma of risperdal 3.5-5-9 fold...and the documentation doesn't even specify the dosage of the ssri taken which for me was max dose of zoloft...So when you mix drugs together the brain is altered much more radically...and when we are dealing with pharmacueticals here especially i'm conerned about the seroquel since it is a atypical neuroleptic...the interaction can be pretty harmful to brain cells...So most likely it was a combination although your friend may still believe it was remeron and I can't for sure say your friend is wrong either...It could have been rameron in his system with the other drugs when he took it made him to lose his drive... b/c I think it was just risperdal for me that did it b/c I took max dose of ssris for 2 years prior and had a massive sex drive... it could also have been a combination as well...It is important to not just think about what the drug targeted but specifically what each drug by themselves depleted...I would go to pubmed and do some researching on that...I know risperdal depletes l-glutamate/l-glutathione stores which is responsible for gaba reception and it also polarizes d2 receptors...But each drug depletes something in the brain and destroys it...Whats important again tho is to not overanylize it and work with essentially slightly absent-minded experimentation...No one will no in a billion years the exact reactions that were done to the brain with the cocktail administered...But that doesn't mean it can't be healed and be back to near homeostasis again...through experimentation...;)
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 13, 2007, at 9:43:38
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero, posted by infectedmushrooms on August 12, 2007, at 12:04:12
Thank you for your reply, infectedmushrooms.
I notice you mention that you believe amino acid therapy might be bs. What makes you think so? Because I notice you mention some supplements you are using, some of which might be amino acids.
I was under the impression that using certain (natural) supplements had a positive impact in neurotransmitters--and we're talking natural supplements, as opposed to drugs and AD's.
I was in fact reading the website you provided http://recover.forumup.org/ and went to the success stories section.
Apparently one of the recovery cases (blueshark) accomplished great progress through using several amino acids and supplements.
I just wonder how did he figure out the gigantic combo he ended up taking. He doesn't mention if he went to a holistic specialist.
He mentions doing some reading, but that might be dangerous because no matter how much you read, some supplements might not be good for your specific case, and god knows what effects they could have in you when you don't have the background knowledge of body chemistry and reactions.
How did you figure out the combo you're currently taking? Is that something you read about, or did you see a specialist? Like I said before, I read a book once which dealt with this subject, and it recommended some relatively safe supplements.
But the list this guy has is huge, and it has tons of different things. It makes me wonder where he got so much information.
Anyway, if you know where to get this info, I'd really appreciate your help on this.
Thanks a lot,
GI78
Posted by infectedmushrooms on August 13, 2007, at 12:05:26
In reply to Re: Permanent Male Sexual Dysfunction after Remero » infectedmushrooms, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on August 13, 2007, at 9:43:38
When you said amino acid therapy I thought you meant they inject an IV in your veins as listed on some sites for drug abusers..for some reason i was thinking of this site http://www.noraa.org/amino_acid_therapy.html for some reason...I wasn't thinking about the more conventional way...my bad...
Yeah in a sense I am doing a slower amino acid therapy but at much slower paces...Sorry about the confusion again....Amino acids are the building blocks of nuerotransmitters as we all know...There is a reason why I am not fully recovered just by taking all amino acids and that would probably be b/c my receptors have been destroyed and desensitized due to oversensitization to begin with...I have talked to a guy with the same problem as me and he is probably still studying risperdal if I had to guess...He said these injuries don't heal on their own...Meaning time alone will not fix the problem... but another guy I talked directly with as well I managed to help him heal almost back to normal through recommendations...I don't know if hes 100% yet but I think he is getting pretty closer and closer each day..ultimately he healed himself though b/c he saw what was working and what wasn't...and this was all within a few months.....The reason it is taking me longer to heal is b/c my liver imo...I continued taking ssris after risperdal so my body has to fix more damage...This guy also took risperdal for slightly less time than me too...He takes whey protein and now piracetam like me and I still believe it is still probably important to take aminos for the rebuilding of cells that will utilize them again although it is possible but unlikely it is doing more harm than good but when I take them I get some establishment of libido so I am guessing it is good...Another problem that I didn't mention that I should have is Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Testes Axis disruption...When your friend took the drugs he didn't have a sex drive on it for 8 months...This could severely alter the axis and hormone glands are no longer in sync with one another creating disturbances to the adrenals/thyroid and who knows what else...This can be also seen in steroid users sometimes who don't cycle properly...This is mentioned on the forum mentioned too...There are so many variables to consider...He definitely needs to get some extensive blood work done to start figuring out what is mainly wrong and work from there...I just had 12 viles of blood taken the other day to test virtually everything there is...I will post some of my results when I get them..including vitamin levels/thyroid etc...so I can try to further pinpoint what is going on rather than just rely solely on trial and error with supplements...Also he could try neurotransmitter testing like you mentioned earlier through saliva or urine samples which i plan to do in the near future...I don't think there are any holistic specialists out there right now that would truly know how to treat someone like your friend or myself not to say that there isn't...It would be very difficult to find one i'm guessing and even if they were good at what they did they can only attempt to fix the problem with maybe special adaptogens/herbs or a recommended diet... it is ultimately up to the individual imo or if your lucky drugs by themselves...One book I get my information from is pretty popular on the recover forum...Is called the The Edge Effect...It pretty much discusses what aminos you could be lacking and how to fix those problems with supplements and in severe deficiencies drugs...Another place where I get my information on what are truly the best supplements to buy as well as other health information is http://www.imminst.org/forum/....I also have read several nutrition books...Healing With Whole Foods by paul pitchford and create your own supplement plan by another person I don't have in front of me...I have about $3,000 in supplements in my room but take each one sparingly to see which one is the best for me...Diet plays a major role believe it or not although it may not be evident for sometimes up to two years...It take a long time to regenerate cells in the body and light exercise is also imperitive for neurogenesis as well as lots of rest...Liver toxification is another issue i am currently working on...with a stagnant liver toxins remain in the body forever until it is cleansed and then healing occurs at much faster rates...I sometimes think I know how to heal then fall back but I am coming closer to an understanding of the foundation by reading all aspects into everything...I am a walking encyclopedia by now b/c I became so obsessed with getting my sex drive back I even dropped out of school....here is another post i did a while back explaining what happened to me and some things not mentioned http://www.drugs-forum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=30921
There is so much you can learn just by other people and that is why recovery forums or PSSD forum are great places to start...although PSSD forum can make you pretty upset so I don't go there as much as i did but it has also some of the best and most recent information from other people there with the same problems....The moderator there is a real scientist who got affected just from one SSRI celexa and he can give you excellent advice based on what he has read from others and answers your questions rather speedily...
In answer to your question about blueshark he says he take armour b/c he has a thyroid problem...That i am guessing is one of his major issues...He may have to be on that the rest of his life as it is taken for people with hypothyroidism which he didn't have until i guess he claimed to have over-masturbated...which I guess is possible...
His sources are the same as everyone elses im sure trial and error and independent research and he found his cure...I don't think he took drugs however so it would be harder for our case to be solved...
> Thank you for your reply, infectedmushrooms.
>
> I notice you mention that you believe amino acid therapy might be bs. What makes you think so? Because I notice you mention some supplements you are using, some of which might be amino acids.
>
> I was under the impression that using certain (natural) supplements had a positive impact in neurotransmitters--and we're talking natural supplements, as opposed to drugs and AD's.
>
> I was in fact reading the website you provided http://recover.forumup.org/ and went to the success stories section.
>
> Apparently one of the recovery cases (blueshark) accomplished great progress through using several amino acids and supplements.
>
> I just wonder how did he figure out the gigantic combo he ended up taking. He doesn't mention if he went to a holistic specialist.
>
> He mentions doing some reading, but that might be dangerous because no matter how much you read, some supplements might not be good for your specific case, and god knows what effects they could have in you when you don't have the background knowledge of body chemistry and reactions.
>
> How did you figure out the combo you're currently taking? Is that something you read about, or did you see a specialist? Like I said before, I read a book once which dealt with this subject, and it recommended some relatively safe supplements.
>
> But the list this guy has is huge, and it has tons of different things. It makes me wonder where he got so much information.
>
> Anyway, if you know where to get this info, I'd really appreciate your help on this.
>
> Thanks a lot,
> GI78
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