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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BadBrain on August 5, 2007, at 19:23:23
I've been taking Nardil for about a month now, and emotionally, I feel pretty good. However, these side effects are intolerable. Specifically, drowsiness, and ironically, insomnia, sweating/hypersenstive to heat, and gastric distress, specifically gassy and constipated. I've about had it with the side effects, and if they don't go away soon, I'm giving up on Nardil. So has anybody had relatively severe side effects initially and had them go away over time? Should I just prepare to throw in the towel? I know this is a "last resort" drug in my case, but what else can I do?
Posted by nutjob on August 6, 2007, at 23:00:47
In reply to Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimish?, posted by BadBrain on August 5, 2007, at 19:23:23
I've been taking Nardil for about three and a half months now. I'm on 75 mgs/day. The side-effects were pretty nasty for the first couple of months or so. Now they're mostly gone, however. I'm sh*tting on a daily basis now, and the f*rting is gone. The sensitivity in my johnson is slowly returning, and I've managed to blow my load six times while j*rking off in the last few weeks. I strongly urge you to give Nardil a trial of at least three months before you give up on it. Good things come to those who wait.
job
Posted by FredPotter on August 7, 2007, at 0:09:40
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimish?, posted by nutjob on August 6, 2007, at 23:00:47
I agree. It took 6.5 weeks to work with me, ramping up to 75mg. After that I've had several months of what I can only cause happiness. Mr Johnson isn't quite up to it yet and I have a big stomach
Posted by nutjob on August 7, 2007, at 11:22:33
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimish?, posted by FredPotter on August 7, 2007, at 0:09:40
Oh, and another thing I should mention... the fatigue is mostly gone too. And I sleep an average of 7 hours a night, with little trouble falling into slumberland. However, I've noticed that if I take the Nardil on a full stomach I often get sleepy and have to take a nap. If I take the Nardil on an empty stomach I seldom have fatigue issues. Also, for me, the medication seems to work better when I take take it in five separate doses throughout the day, with three hours between each dose; ie, 75 mgs = 5 pills, 1 pill taken every three hours. It's kind of a pain in the *ss to do it this way, but I carry a little pill box around with me in my pocket, and each morning I place 5 pills into it. Then I use my cell phone alarm to remind me when to take each dose.
A side effect that I still have from the drug is profuse sweating from my forehead when I'm standing out in the heat or when I eat a hot meal. It doesn't happen all the time however, and I do wonder if it may have something to do with the fact that I smoke nearly 2 packs of cigarettes a day. And strangely enough I have a tendency to smoke three times as much as I did before I started Nardil. I'm trying my damndest to quit but whenever I do manage to quit for a few days I find myself taking it up again the minute I'm around a friend who happens to be smoking.
In any case, Nardil is by far the most effective medication for me--and I've tried nearly all of them over the past 11 years. Where before starting Nardil I couldn't hardly make eye contact with anyone, now I can stare into anyone's eyes for as long as I want to without flinching. In the past I never had success with women--now I just stare deep into their eyes and flash a little grin and the women are all over my nuts.
job
Posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 7, 2007, at 12:51:57
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimish?, posted by nutjob on August 7, 2007, at 11:22:33
Hi Nutjob,
A couple of questions:
1. Are you taking the new reformulated version of Nardil? I'm not sure if that's the version sold around the world, but I think there's yet another version in Australia, so I wonder which are you taking. The Pfizer new version or the Australian one?
2. How long did it take for the fatigue to go? I'm on week 8. I sleep great at night, but I'm sleepy during the day despite having a good night sleep every night.
3. How long did it take for Nardil to kick in? When did your social anxiety began diminishing?
As of now, (week 8th) all I got is side effects, and just a very small, insignificant antidepressant effect. I might give it 3 months before giving up, unless it took you (and other Nardil users) 3 months to kick in.
Thanks in advance for any info you can provide,
GI78
Posted by nutjob on August 7, 2007, at 14:58:53
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimi » nutjob, posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 7, 2007, at 12:51:57
girl,
1. I live in America--hence, Pfizer. I wouldn't worry about the reformulation. This is really only an issue for people accustomed to the old version. It's still the same drug. Supposedly the new version isn't absorbed by the gastro tract quite as well as the old. But I imagine taking it with/without food, along with the types of foods you eat and how much, can affect the absorption of Nardil. I can only surmise here, cause I'm no science wiz--but for me, when I take it on an empty stomach in five separate doses (1 pill/dose) I have virtually no fatigue issues, and overall the medication seems to work better for me this way. Sometimes I even feel mildly stimulated in a very soothing way. Taking two pills at a time tends to make me drowsy.
2. Like I said, I still experience fatigue at times if I take two pills or if I take it with a big meal. It's only been this way up until fairly recently though--for at least the first three months or so I found myself taking long naps during the day, especially when I was idle.
3. When I first increased the dose to 60 mgs I felt high as a kite and pretty relaxed around people. The euphoria long with the anxiolytic effect quickly diminished, and so I upped the dose to 75 almost almost right away--however I couldn't tolerate 75 at that point. I jumped back down to 60 for about 2 months with partial anxiety relief. Then when I increased to 75 after a couple of months the transition was smooth and the side-effects were hardly any worse at 75 than at 60. Within a few a days at 75 I noticed that I was no longer sensitive to rejection. I could sit around for days and think about my inadequacies or ruminate about painful experiences from the past where I had felt rejected or humiliated, and while my thoughts were much the same as they had always been, the emotional pain was suddenly gone.
It's important to realize that Nardil alone does not have the power to change your corrupted thought patterns. It's just an emotional anesthetic so to speak, a kind of painkiller for the nerves in your body that facilitate emotional suffering and dread. I would bet my balls that Nardil is related to opiates in some way--this is especially evident when you feel that initial euphoric effect that so many (though not everyone) experience at first.
You didn't mention what dose you take, but if you're not feeling any relief from rejection sensitivity (the essence of "social anxiety") yet then you're probably not taking a high enough dose. The information out there on Nardil is pretty sparse unfortunately--but some studies suggest that close to 80% of people afflicted with social anxiety will experience significant relief on Nardil once they've reached a high enough dose. For some this might mean 45 mgs/day--for others it might mean 90 mgs or even more.
The problem of course is allowing your body enough time to adjust. There's no question that the side-effects are pretty f*cking nasty at first and it can take 2 to 4 months for them to mostly subside.
If I were you I would try experimenting with different dosing intervals in varying amounts, e.g. 1 in the morning, 2 at night; 1 pill for every dose (as I do). Also, try with/without food. I don't know what your habits are like--but maybe try four or five smalls meals instead of three large meals, or whatever. Food really does seem to have an affect, at least in my experience. Experiment in this way and see if you notice any changes in energy level, fatigue. If nothing makes a difference give it at least another month or so to see if you feel less tired eventually. Then talk to your doc about raising the dose--if 15 mg increases cause too many side effects, maybe scoring the tablets and increasing in 7.5 mg intervals could be an option...?
The fact is, Nardil is the single most efficacious treatment for social phobia. It even outperforms the benzos and Cognitive Behavioral Group therapy. No single treatment works for everyone, though. Some people might require 120 mgs of Nardil, 5 mgs of klonopin, and months of CBGT just to get moderate improvement--who knows.
Everyone's different.Do what you want, but were it me, I would stick it out, play around with the dosing schedule, etc.
One thing's for sure, generalized social phobia really f*cking blows! "Normal" folks have no clue how much of a nightmare it is--and I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. You owe it to yourself to explore all options, and to be patient. The process of recovery can be long and arduous--but you must approach it as systematically and rationally as possible. Keep a journal of how you're feeling each day if you can find the time and motivation. Consider all possibilities. And never forget: where there is a will there is a way, patience is a virtue, blah, blah, blah, lots of other cliches....usually cliches becomes cliches for a reason though-- and that is that more often than not, they're true.job
Posted by FredPotter on August 7, 2007, at 15:35:30
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimish?, posted by nutjob on August 7, 2007, at 11:22:33
Nutjob I also sleep 7 hours. Anymore and I can feel more tired. Also If I drink at weekends, the next day I can feel my symptoms returning. Fear, depression etc. Even with small amounts of drink. It also makes me sleep in the day. But in the week, and when I don't drink at weekends, I go to bed at 11 and get up at 6. Having 2 hours of peace where I can read or indulge a quiet hobby before work is so precious. I can recommend it. It also gives me the feeling that I am on top of things.
I have a problem with taking pills throughout the day. The pharmacist told me to keep them in the fridge. So I imagine they get quite warm in my pocket. But no I don't get sleepy in the day. I used to sleep at lunch time, which I guess was a symptom of depression. So no matter how sleepy you feel now, it should flip around to the opposite. And yes it's great to gaze into a beautiful woman's eyes as she talks to me, although at my age they don't exactly dive for my nuts
Fred
Posted by nutjob on August 7, 2007, at 15:52:06
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimi » nutjob, posted by girlnterrupted78 on August 7, 2007, at 12:51:57
girl,
couple other things I forgot to mention...some people never get beyond the fatigue. again, everyone's different. in such cases psychostimulants like provigil or even dexedrine are often prescribed. amphetamines are said to be contraindicated with Nardil in the old literature, yet countless people take them with nardil and have no troubles. i drink a fair amount of caffeine with Nardil and experience no ill effects--and caffeine too is said to be contraindicated. though, when i first started nardil caffeine gave me palpitations and made me irritable, now it actually seems to be less peripherally stimulating than in my pre-Nardil days. 99% of the info out there on Nardil is extremely outdated, and much of it is inaccurate and outdated. sadly few doctors/researchers care to do anything about it, and of course we all know why (big pharma). it's up to people like you and i to fill in the gaps and inform others. there are millions of people in the world just like us, and most of them will probably never hear of Nardil. doctors seldom even know much about it (including my own).
hell, why not wait 6 months before you give up on Nardil? or even longer? i'm assuming that if you're taking nardil you've already tried most every other pharmaceutical intervention, including the benzos. if nardil doesn't give you any relief at this point, non-pharmacological treatments like CBGT might be your only option, or something less conventional like neuro-lingistic programming and/or hypnosis.
one other drug that comes to mind is called Amisulpride; it's not available in America but it can be ordered overseas. it's an anti-psychotic with paradoxical effects on dopamine (pro-dopaminergic at low doses). some people claim to experience significant relief from SA with it--I tried it just prior to Nardil, and experienced nothing of the sort, though it did seem to provide some degree of relief from the depression i experience as a result of social isolation. but i'd much rather attack the route of the problem than simply take something that makes me less miserable for being so alone, i.e., the so-called "depression" i experienced was undoubtedly a result of severe rejection sensitivity.
job
Posted by nutjob on August 7, 2007, at 16:21:24
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimish? » nutjob, posted by FredPotter on August 7, 2007, at 15:35:30
fred,
i know exactly what you're talking about in regard to alcohol. nardil does seem to have reduced benefits for a day or two after a night of binge drinking. however, when i'm under the influence of alcohol + Nardil sometimes i feel supremely relaxed and confident--which usually isn't a good thing, as it makes me prone to doing stupid things like flashing my weiner at parties or doing cartwheels in public restaurants. drinking with nardil is not a good idea in my opinion unless you have the self-control to limit yourself to one or two beverages.
also, smoking marijuana heavily neutralizes the positive effects of nardil for me. if i smoke everyday for a week i find that nardil stops working, even for several days after i cease smoking. then the benefits return and i feel awesome again.
Nardil + substance abuse = dumb idea
job
Posted by BadBrain on August 7, 2007, at 19:26:17
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimish?, posted by nutjob on August 7, 2007, at 16:21:24
Actually, it never really occurred to me to spread it out over the day instead of taking 2 pills at a shot, twice a day. I did seem to tolerate it better when I was taking a single pill, 3 times a day. I'm seeing my shrink next week anyway, so I'll see if there is anything he can "do" for the side effects.
Right now, sexual side effects are the least of my concerns. Getting a boner is pretty much a waste of time considering I haven't had a date in two years. Yeah, I miss sex, but its not really my priority right now.
Posted by FredPotter on August 7, 2007, at 19:55:17
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimish?, posted by nutjob on August 7, 2007, at 16:21:24
Nutjob thanks I agree. I don't know about the mj interaction. There seems to be an interesting synergistic effect of kava with Nardil, but it's an evening thing to be done at home as it can make you fall over things. I never noticed much from kava before Nardil
Fred
Posted by Quintal on August 7, 2007, at 21:21:02
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimi, posted by nutjob on August 7, 2007, at 14:58:53
>I would bet my balls that Nardil is related to opiates in some way--this is especially evident when you feel that initial euphoric effect that so many (though not everyone) experience at first.
I've wondered exactly the same thing nutjob. Also, the severe constipation is another factor. I'll search PubMed and see if I can find anything about Nardil binding to opiate receptors. Some other antidepressants like Effexor do this so it's entirely possible.
Q
Posted by jhj on August 8, 2007, at 4:44:23
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimi » nutjob, posted by Quintal on August 7, 2007, at 21:21:02
Can NARDIL prove fatal? I mean is it so dangorous?
I have social phobia and i reside in India.But nobody in India is ready to prescribe Nardil or any other MAOI because according to them it is life threatning.
Posted by Quintal on August 8, 2007, at 5:03:29
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimi, posted by jhj on August 8, 2007, at 4:44:23
Yes, it could kill you if you mixed it with other drugs like Ecstacy or Paxil. Unless you're thinking of doing that there's no reason to worry. Deaths from tyramine-induced hypertensive crises are very rare, and in one study I read found that hypertensive crises occurred in less than 5% of people taking MAOIs. They can be avoided be following the low-tyramine diet properly. So in all the 'dangerous drug' reputation of MAOIs is mostly ill-informed hyperbole.
Q
Posted by FredPotter on August 8, 2007, at 15:26:13
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimi » jhj, posted by Quintal on August 8, 2007, at 5:03:29
. . . and I'm not absolutely certain, but I think Nardil has brought my blood pressure down and my blood glucose. re the diet - I've found I have to be careful at buffets. If there's cheese in the ingredients I would be OK if it were Edam but I can't really tell what it is. So I avoid pizza because of the cheese and the salami. Mozzarella might be OK but probably not Parmisan. It's said that fresh yoghurt is OK but isn't that an oxymoron?
Fred
Posted by yznhymer on August 8, 2007, at 23:21:08
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimish?, posted by nutjob on August 6, 2007, at 23:00:47
I was on Nardil some years ago and ultimately dropped it because of the side effects. Pity because my response to it was awesome. I was positively gregarious. Social phobia, rejection sensitivity went out the window. I felt great. Nothing before or since came close. But I gained 20 lbs the first month, etc. The deal breaker was things went dead below the waist. My pdoc said in his experience that didn't change for people with time.
I'm curious about how the feeling is returning to your johnson and if you've found anything to help this process along.
You say you "managed" to blow your load - did this require herculean effort and were the results normally satisfactory or distorted in some way? Do you think its possible to return to full pre-nardil form in that department?
Posted by nutjob on August 9, 2007, at 12:02:02
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimi » nutjob, posted by yznhymer on August 8, 2007, at 23:21:08
yznhymer,
Search the archives here at psychobabble. You'll find countless reports from individuals on Nardil, dating back to the late nineties when psychobabble first appeared online. Most people who are willing to stick it out for long enough find that the sexual side effects slowly diminish over the course of several months until they are virtually gone. Some people return to full form after 4 or 5 months; one man, a fellow by the name of "chairman_MAO," claimed that for him a full year went by before his giggle stick reached its pre-Nardil level of functioning. However, if you read through many of chairman_MAO's reports you'll discover that he has a propensity for f*cking with lots of different substances at the same time--including illicit. He claims he had some success with dopaminergics and drugs used to treat Erectile Dysfunction (eg, cialis) before enough time had passed for the sexual side effects to go away on their own--however using such drugs might possibly explain why it took his donger so long to wake up while on Nardil alone; ie, rebound effects.
job
Posted by Jedi on August 9, 2007, at 13:23:11
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimi, posted by FredPotter on August 8, 2007, at 15:26:13
Fred,
Nardil lowers my normal BP about 10 points on both the systolic and diastolic sides. At least that is one positive side effect among all of the negative ones.
Be Well,
Jedi> . . . and I'm not absolutely certain, but I think Nardil has brought my blood pressure down and my blood glucose. re the diet - I've found I have to be careful at buffets. If there's cheese in the ingredients I would be OK if it were Edam but I can't really tell what it is. So I avoid pizza because of the cheese and the salami. Mozzarella might be OK but probably not Parmisan. It's said that fresh yoghurt is OK but isn't that an oxymoron?
> Fred
Posted by Quintal on August 9, 2007, at 14:00:21
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimi, posted by nutjob on August 7, 2007, at 14:58:53
Found this study interesting:
__________________________________________________Behav Pharmacol. 2006 Mar;17(2):151-9.Click here to read Links
Effects of monoamine oxidase inhibitors on cocaine discrimination in rats.
Gatch MB, Taylor CM, Flores E, Selvig M, Forster MJ.Department of Pharmacology and Neuroscience, University of North Texas Health Science Center, Fort Worth, Texas 76107-2699, USA. mgatch@hsc.unt.edu
This study tested the time course of the discriminative stimulus effects of inhibitors of monoamine oxidase alone or in combination with cocaine. Male Sprague-Dawley rats were trained to discriminate cocaine (10 mg/kg, intraperitoneal) from saline using a two-lever choice methodology. The nonselective monoamine oxidase inhibitors tranylcypromine (0.01-5 mg/kg) and phenelzine (1-25 mg/kg), the monoamine oxidase-A selective compound clorgyline (1-25 mg/kg), and the monoamine oxidase-B selective compounds pargyline (0.005-50 mg/kg) and selegiline (1-25 mg/kg) were tested for substitution 15 min or 24 h following administration, and in combination with 10 mg/kg of cocaine 24 and 48 h after administration. At 15 min, selegiline fully substituted for the discriminative stimulus effects of cocaine, whereas all other compounds partially substituted. At 24 h, substitution of cocaine was diminished for all compounds except phenelzine, which produced a greater amount of substitution at 24 h than at 15 min. When cocaine was administered 24 h after clorgyline, selegiline, pargyline, and phenelzine, cocaine-appropriate responding was attenuated at intermediate doses of these drugs, whereas the highest doses did not alter cocaine-lever responding. All compounds except selegiline substantially decreased response rate and produced various adverse effects. At 48 h, the effects of all compounds except phenelzine were markedly reduced. Selectivity for monoamine oxidase-A or monoamine oxidase-B did not predict the ability to substitute for or attenuate the subjective effects of cocaine. These findings suggest that monoamine oxidase inhibitors can modulate the discriminative stimulus effects of cocaine for at least 24 h, and may be useful for treatment of cocaine abuse.
PMID: 16495723 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
__________________________________________________Q
Posted by Sentience on August 9, 2007, at 21:10:53
In reply to Re: Nardil... do the stupid side effects ever dimi, posted by nutjob on August 7, 2007, at 14:58:53
In relation to your wondering about the euphoric effects of Nardil, Phenelzine (Nardil) is structurally very similar to dextroamphetamine, although tranylcypomine (Parnate) is even more closely related. The activating effects of Nardil may result from some kind of mimicking of amphetamine. Phenelzine also influences the GABA receptors within the CNS, which the Benzos target. Its possible that some kind of interaction between these effects gives the euphoria.
This is the end of the thread.
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