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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by linkadge on July 3, 2007, at 20:18:02
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Maria3667 on July 3, 2007, at 19:32:30
I don't have any problem with people using opiates for depression, but you may want to use them in a more controlled manner for depression.
Codiene is an option that may at least be easier to monitor. There are doctors who will prescribe opiates for severe treatment resistant depression.
Opiates affect a number of nerotransmitter systems, including glutamate, dopamine, serotonin, gaba etc. Opiates increase the level of tryptophan hydroxylase which is an enzyme responsable for the synthesis of serotonin in the brain.
Opiates also share the ability to produce similar EEG changes as are observable with the TCA's, ie EEG slowing.
Obviously there are risks being taken, you may want to look into drugs such as tramadol or buprenorphin, but using opiates for depression is not necessarily a dead end route.
Linkadge
Posted by becksFLA on July 3, 2007, at 20:23:25
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by linkadge on July 3, 2007, at 20:18:02
Posted by polarbear206 on July 3, 2007, at 20:37:30
In reply to Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 19:15:27
> I have been suffering from depression for 18 years now which until four years ago it was managable with medication. But four years ago my condition took a turn for worse and a whole new set of symptoms appeared. I have become practically cripled and have severe, very severe adhedonia. I sleep or at least stay in bed for some sixteen to eighteen hours a day. Medication has minimal effect. I have used opiods on and off for several years but have managed not to be physically at least to become addicted. I have used heroine on four or five ocassions. I am very scared of addiction but it is the only thing which makes me well enough to carry out the most basic things like having a shower, cleaning the place or even write this message. I know that kicking heroine has its own depression symptom so I only use it sparingly, say once a month when things get really bad that I can't stand my own smell or the place gets so filthy. I call it my holiday or coming up for air because it is the only time when I feel anything like normal.
>
> But it is starting to get out of hand and I am really scared.
>
> I like to know if there is any one out there which is in the same state.
>
> I have also read about deep brain stimulation which is said to work for addiction.
>
> I just like to know more about the antidepressant effects of heroine and corelation between additction and depression.
>
> Any input will be appreciated.Can you give a more detailed history of the onset of your symptoms and age. How different are they from 4 years ago? Do you see a psychiatrist? What are all of the meds you have tried? You are playing with fire using Heroine!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Deputy Racer on July 3, 2007, at 20:45:56
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Maria3667 on July 3, 2007, at 19:32:30
>
>
> What are you? Stupid?
>
>Please don't post anything which could make someone feel accused or put down. I realize the intent of your post is to be helpful, and keep the other poster safe, but the rule here is that the civility guidelines must be followed at all times.
Follow ups to this action should be directed to the Administration board, and should themselves be civil. If you have any questions regarding the civility guidelines, please read the FAQ, located at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Deputy Racer
Posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 20:59:31
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Maria3667 on July 3, 2007, at 19:32:30
I know it sounds stupid but I have tried everything. I have had 2 years pf psychoanalysis (three sessions a week) three years of psychotherapy (two sessions a week), three years of group therapy ( two sessions a week). ECT, and dozens of combinations therapies. As I say I am crippled and house bound unless I have had some opiod. I am going to try VNS but how am I going to get to the appointments? And it is going to be months before they actually implant the device. I am totally alone and I need to take care of myself some how and nothing has worked.
Posted by saturn on July 3, 2007, at 21:03:49
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Maria3667 on July 3, 2007, at 19:32:30
> Dear Babak,
>
>>> What are you? Stupid?This is inappropriate, unacceptable and completely uncalled for. People should be able to express themselves freely here without judgement such as this.
And while I cannot state this is the case for Babak, opiods do have a legitimate role in the treatment of depression.
Best regards to you, Babak.
Posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 21:05:06
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by linkadge on July 3, 2007, at 20:18:02
Thanks for your input.
First of all Codeine doesn't do it. I have tried
Secondly I live in UK and Pdocs don't prescribe Opiods for depression.
They don't prescribe Subutex either. Although I could get it if go in as an addict but the bastereds don't give you a prescription for it and you have to turn up every day and take the tablet in front of them.
I have also tried Tramadol but it doesn't work.
Tnanks anyway
Posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 21:12:35
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by polarbear206 on July 3, 2007, at 20:37:30
Thanks for you input I have posted some back ground in my previous posting as reply to others. But basically I have tried everything, psychoalalysis, psychotherapy indivduall and group, ECT which helped for a couple of months, and just about all the antidepressants on the makert and dozens of combination. My next stop is VNS but it is going to be a while before I amctually get implanted and until then or even while the dosage is goingt to be titerated up to theraputic level I have to some how take care of myself. What people don't realize is the extent to which I am crippled by angedonia. Without heroine it takes weeks of procastenation just to take a shower.
Posted by Squiggles on July 3, 2007, at 21:21:59
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » polarbear206, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 21:12:35
Do you mean heroin or morphine? I think
morphine is prescribable.I guess from a clinical point of view a
psychiatrist would have to measure the risks
versus advantages of opiates, especially in
treatment resistant depression.There's a lot of material on the net about
morphine -- do you really have to take a huge
dose, does it really become addicting that quickly, can you continue taking it at a small
amount and still be as healthy as taking other
antidepressants, can you function socially on it,
is it a pleasant antidepressant, etc.Once these questions are dealt with, i think the big one is IS IT LEGAL?
When we come to this point, i think it reveals how desperately new effective and less noxious drugs are needed.
Squiggles
Posted by saturn on July 3, 2007, at 21:38:00
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » polarbear206, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 21:12:35
>>>What people don't realize is the extent to which I am crippled by angedonia. Without heroine it takes weeks of procastenation just to take a shower.
Have you had heart failure and chronic fatigue sydnrome investigated?
Posted by FredPotter on July 3, 2007, at 22:15:44
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by polarbear206 on July 3, 2007, at 20:37:30
Try reading "Straight Life" by Art and Laurie Pepper as an antidote to taking up heroin
Posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:46:21
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Squiggles on July 3, 2007, at 21:21:59
I mean Heroine, I was prescribed morphine suphate for my stomuch pain which turned out yo be psychosometic but it didn't do anything for my depression. My stomuch pain went away when I increased the dosageof my Effexor.
I don't really know if I can maintain the Heroine dosage. As I said at the moment I take it once or twice a month. The last thing I want is suffer even more depression if and when I have to kick H.
It is illegal and no Pdoc in UK will precribe it.Thanks for your input.
I just want to know why H has such an enourmous antidepressant effect on me. Why am I so crippled without it?
Posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:57:07
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by saturn on July 3, 2007, at 21:38:00
I have had ECG donew on my heart and it looks fine and I don't have chronic fatigue sydnrome, so I am told. I don't feel tired, I just feel uneasy as if I am feeling withdrawal symptoms. I went one and half year without any opiods but the feeling never went away so I don't think it is withdrawal symptoms but it feels that way. I just don't have any motivation to do anything. My mind seems to have stopped. I can't concentrate and don't enjoy anything e.g. eating, taking a shower walking and I have no sexual desire and haven't has sex for the last four years.
I had only used heroine twice in my life before and the first time I was really sick.
I used to smoke opium on and off. Could it be that my brain chemistry has permenantly changed because of opium. But I know people who have kicked heroine after ten years of use without permenant damage.
Posted by Phillipa on July 3, 2007, at 22:57:47
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:46:21
Babak so when you say crippled do you mean mentally? Can you get into a hospital for an evaluation? Sounds like you need serious help right now and with help not alone. Love Phillipa.
Posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:59:19
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by FredPotter on July 3, 2007, at 22:15:44
Is this one of those books full of platitude and so called wisdoms. I have had over seven years of therapy and I have no sense of spiritualism.
Posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 23:06:51
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Phillipa on July 3, 2007, at 22:57:47
I mean that I just don't have any motivation and can't even be bothered to walk, take a bath, clean the place, cook, eat.
For example if I have an appointment the next day, I stay awake all night before because I know once I go into bed there is nothing that can get me out of it.
I have been to so many doctors and specialist and they all say it is anhedonia as a symptom of depression.I mean one of the reasons I don't take more heroine is because I can't be bothered to go out and score. It is madness, I just don't understand it.
Posted by Racer on July 3, 2007, at 23:49:22
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:46:21
>
> I just want to know why H has such an enourmous antidepressant effect on me. Why am I so crippled without it?I'd guess, if the morphine didn't have any mood brightening effect on you, that it's not the heroin -- but rather something it's being cut with. Or maybe it's the method of ingestion?
Whatever it is, though, I have to join others in advising against it. And not because you might become addicted, either. What is actually in the "heroin" you're taking? Unless you send it to a friendly lab to check, you really don't know. It could be cut with all sorts of things, and it probably has some other psychoactive substances in it. (A lot of dealers cut drugs with substances which will mimic the effects of the real drug -- thus "cocaine" often contains lidocaine, etc.)
I have no moral outrage over the idea of using street drugs. I do, however, advise against it for practical reasons. The primary reason being, of course, the one listed above: you don't know what you're really getting.
It sounds as though you've tried a fair number of things. I'm not familiar with the way the NHS works, so forgive me if this is all idiotic under that system. Do you see the same pdoc when you see one? Or are you shifted amongst anyone available? If you have been able to see one doctor, have you been able to get him/her on your team? Or is it just a "You're depressed? Here's an SSRI..." sort of thing? (When I was uninsured, one doctor at the county was terrible that way. I asked what sort of drug she was giving me, and she said, "It's an antidepressant, just take it." I asked what class, and she said, "It's a new one. It'll make you better." I was not impressed...)
I'm sorry if anything I've said leads you to feel worse. I would strongly urge you to get a complete physical exam, though -- if you're this depressed, and nothing has helped, it's time to look for a physical cause. Truly -- my rule of thumb is that I deserve the same level of care I insist on for my animals. That doesn't always happen, of course... But it does mean that physical causes must be ruled out before we say that it's all in my head...
Good luck.
Posted by Deputy 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 1:35:54
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Maria3667, posted by saturn on July 3, 2007, at 21:03:49
> This is inappropriate, unacceptable and completely uncalled for.
Saturn,
I realize you were supporting Babak, but civility rules require you to do this without leading anyone else to feel accused or put down. So, in the future if you have an objection to something in a post here, please use the "Notify the administrators" button located at the bottom of each post, instead of pointing it out on the board.
In this case, Racer had already issued a warning to the poster in question before you posted this, so notification was/is not needed.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 2:47:31
In reply to Re: Heroin as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Racer on July 3, 2007, at 23:49:22
Thanks for your input.
But it can not be the stuff that the heroine is cut with because I have bought over a long period of time from different dealers. I have had really bad H and really good H but the effect was always the same. My level of interest increases, my mood is lifted and I am physically more active.
I have seen at least a dozen Pdocs, NHS and private ones from Harley Street. I have tried all classes of antidepressants, even MIOA which I had to stop because it gave me high blood presure and I ended up in hospital. Every time I have ended up with the same one; Effexor.
Mode of ingestion for heroine and morphine we both the same, i.e oral (I sniff heroine as I don't like the smell of it when smoking it).
I have had MRI, full blood test, ECG and all sorts of other exminations.
Could it be that my brain just doesn't produce enough endorphine? I say this because I have a very low pain threshold. What ever it is it seems to be getting worse with age.
Posted by Sigismund on July 4, 2007, at 2:48:25
In reply to Heroine as atnidepressant, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 19:15:27
When you say it is getting out of hand, I wonder exactly what you mean.
The important thing with opiates is not to get a habit.
I was in your situation, and worse from the sound of what you say (although perhaps not so depressed) for many years.
I have reservations about how much of my history I want archived forever again here.
Nutritional medicine is the thing that helped me.
Posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:13:01
In reply to Please follow site guidelines » saturn, posted by Deputy 10derheart on July 4, 2007, at 1:35:54
Babak,
First of all I want to apologise to you. I didn't mean to blow you off, I just wanted to keep you from getting into (worse) harm. Secondly I apologise to the board for my strong wording.
Babak, now that you have explained your situation a little further I think you are taking the right road to recovery. Eventhough the reward might not be instanteneous, it's saver than trying opoids.
It's taken me 20 years before I had my depression conquered. It was a slow path with psychotherapy, grouptherapy and many meds. What greatly improved my situation was Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS), a new therapy. In the end I got there and at present I don't need any AD.
You also mention having low energy and not being sexually active. This makes me wonder, have you had your testosterone levels checked? It's a well known fact low testosterone can lead to depression, fatigue & demotivation too. May be this is an option worth exploring...?
As you said there's a chance hard core drugs can cause permanent brain damage - something which could aggrevate your situation. Opiods might seem like a 'quick fix' but in the long run could make your life living hell (especially if you become addicted). This is not a risk you want to take, do you?
My best,
Maria
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:14:15
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Babak, posted by Sigismund on July 4, 2007, at 2:48:25
Thanks for your input.
I wonder what kind of nutritional medicine worked for you.
By getting out of hand I mean that the frequency of my heroine use is on the increase and I am worried that the dosage is increasing as well.
One more point is that H doesn't actually cure my depression it just hightens my mood enough to get up and do a few necessary things.
Posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:20:39
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant, posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:13:01
Thank you Maria
That is exactly what I am worried about but permenant brain damage from Heroine is not documented and people have kicked it after years of heavy usage.
I don't think they offer TMS in UK but if you know otherwise I would love to have more information.
I am waiting for this VNS therapy but it is going to be months and I just don't know how to go on until then, that is if it turns out to be succesful.
Posted by Maria3667 on July 4, 2007, at 3:32:24
In reply to Re: Heroine as an antidepressant » Maria3667, posted by Babak on July 4, 2007, at 3:20:39
Hi Babak,
As a matter of fact, a friend of mine is starting TMS-therapy very soon. Although it is still in the testing phase, there's a company in my country offering it to people willing to participate in a clinical setting. She has an appointment next Friday.
It's not very far away from you. All you have to do is cross the North Sea.
> Thank you Maria
>
> That is exactly what I am worried about but permenant brain damage from Heroine is not documented and people have kicked it after years of heavy usage.
>
> I don't think they offer TMS in UK but if you know otherwise I would love to have more information.
>
> I am waiting for this VNS therapy but it is going to be months and I just don't know how to go on until then, that is if it turns out to be succesful.
Posted by Squiggles on July 4, 2007, at 8:18:34
In reply to Re: Heroine as atnidepressant » Squiggles, posted by Babak on July 3, 2007, at 22:46:21
> I just want to know why H has such an enourmous antidepressant effect on me. Why am I so crippled without it?My guess would be that it is such a strong anxiolytic and euphoric drug. So much literature on its qualities of easing all worry, all pain, all anxiety; Sir William Osler (old McGill Victorian dr.) called 'God's own medicine', and there is so much literature on its power to send you to oblivion. You might read Quincey's book for a nice description of the heaven and hell of opium, for example.
Given all that, if you say you are crippled without it (and i guess you mean you are emotionally unhappy, not physically crippled), then I would guess you have DEPRESSION, and the heroin is lifting you out of it.
Again, from what i have read on the literature, it is pretty awful getting off (see "Trainspotting"), but I have also read reports that at a very tiny dose it is good for things like bronchitis and diarrhea and stomach ailments, without great risk of the horrors of withdrawal in addiction. Question is, how much would you need for depression;
The fact that it's illegal presents very special problems. I know that many people are now addicted to Vicodin and opiate copies-- if that is what works for you for depression, maybe you should speak to your doctor about it as an alternative to heroin.
Squiggles
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