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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by ttee on June 24, 2007, at 10:21:33
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on June 24, 2007, at 7:37:51
One of the biggest problems with docs when they have depression (mental illness), is they can't let anyone know and seek treatment, because they couldn't practice medicine with a mental illness. Let's say your PCP has depression and he misses diagnosing cancer in you during your annual physical. When you sue him for malpractice, he will lose if you find out he was suffering from mental illness or was taking psychiatric drugs and practicing medicine. It ends their career.
Posted by Squiggles on June 24, 2007, at 10:29:56
In reply to docs and depression, posted by ttee on June 24, 2007, at 10:21:33
> One of the biggest problems with docs when they have depression (mental illness), is they can't let anyone know and seek treatment, because they couldn't practice medicine with a mental illness. Let's say your PCP has depression and he misses diagnosing cancer in you during your annual physical. When you sue him for malpractice, he will lose if you find out he was suffering from mental illness or was taking psychiatric drugs and practicing medicine. It ends their career.
Well, Dr. Kay Jamison has written books about her
bipolar disorder and with meds she *is* one of the top doctors in her field.Perhaps it depends on your personal moral code or needs, but if i were a depressed dr. i would either seek treatment or stop practicing and get another job. Surely, there are people who may suffer from hiding this illness, including the dr. Money isn't everything.
Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on June 24, 2007, at 12:25:16
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on June 24, 2007, at 7:37:51
What do you mean by intercept? There is very little proof of antidepressants being more effective than placebos.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 24, 2007, at 12:27:21
In reply to Re: docs and depression » ttee, posted by Squiggles on June 24, 2007, at 10:29:56
I would think that a doctor could still practice even if they have a mental illness. Malpractice is malpractice. I don't know how sucessfull somebody would be on directly linking malpractice to a doctor's illness.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on June 24, 2007, at 12:29:51
In reply to Re: docs and depression, posted by linkadge on June 24, 2007, at 12:27:21
> I would think that a doctor could still practice even if they have a mental illness. Malpractice is malpractice. I don't know how sucessfull somebody would be on directly linking malpractice to a doctor's illness.
>
> LinkadgeYou may be right. To be frank, i have not
actually studied the issue at depth nor
searched for statistics. And the malpractice
-mental illness link is a legal issue.Squiggles
Posted by BabyBunny on June 24, 2007, at 12:58:54
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant Depr, posted by linkadge on June 24, 2007, at 6:57:05
I think Link is onto something here...
> Docs probably commit suicide not just because they're depressed, but because they have the inside scoop on the efficacy (or lack therof) of these medications.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on June 24, 2007, at 13:04:43
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant Depr » linkadge, posted by BabyBunny on June 24, 2007, at 12:58:54
Yup.. i think he's onto something too.
Squiggles
Posted by ttee on June 24, 2007, at 13:40:32
In reply to Re: docs and depression » ttee, posted by Squiggles on June 24, 2007, at 10:29:56
BTW, Dr. Kay Jamison is a renowned expert on bipolar as suffers from the illness. But she is NOT a practicing psychiatrist and has a Ph.D in Psychology. Most all state medical boards have rules of conduct for physicians and one of them is not to practice if you have mental illness. Just like if you are a pilot, you can not take ANY psychiatric meds (even Prozac) and still fly. This is an automatic FAA grounding. A doctor would need to stop practicing if he needed to take psychoactive drugs, or take them and not tell anyone. They don't want surgeons operating on people while on mind alterning drugs. If they went for psychiatric help in their local community, the risk is too great. Doctors don't get treatment for depression and this leads to an increased percentage of suicides.
Posted by Squiggles on June 24, 2007, at 13:53:00
In reply to Re: docs and depression, posted by ttee on June 24, 2007, at 13:40:32
OK - thanks for clarifying that. She certainly
writes well and has contributed greatly to the field with her research and collaboration with other psychiatrists.There are some depressions, which if mild would
probably not interfere with medical work; but there are others, which may actually lead to crime-- for example Dr. Shipfield in the UK? [i think that was his name]. Also, mental illness is insidious-- you can go on for years being eccentric and then at some time in your life do really things out of control; and there are also waves of madness during a lifetime. So, yeah, it would be risky.As Dr. Torrey said, much of the problem of people who do things they would not otherwise do, and are under the influence of biological brain disturbance, is that they are not always aware.
Squiggles
Posted by BabyBunny on June 24, 2007, at 13:54:48
In reply to Re: docs and depression, posted by ttee on June 24, 2007, at 13:40:32
That's sad. They're people too. But it just makes me doubt psychiatric drugs even more.
Why are they giving out this stuff like candy if it's so terrible? Makes one wonder...
> BTW, Dr. Kay Jamison is a renowned expert on bipolar as suffers from the illness. But she is NOT a practicing psychiatrist and has a Ph.D in Psychology. Most all state medical boards have rules of conduct for physicians and one of them is not to practice if you have mental illness. Just like if you are a pilot, you can not take ANY psychiatric meds (even Prozac) and still fly. This is an automatic FAA grounding. A doctor would need to stop practicing if he needed to take psychoactive drugs, or take them and not tell anyone. They don't want surgeons operating on people while on mind alterning drugs. If they went for psychiatric help in their local community, the risk is too great. Doctors don't get treatment for depression and this leads to an increased percentage of suicides.
Posted by Klavot on June 24, 2007, at 15:19:29
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant Depr, posted by linkadge on June 24, 2007, at 6:57:05
> Docs probably commit suicide not just because they're depressed, but because they have the inside scoop on the efficacy (or lack therof) of these medications.
>
> LinkadgeIn what way would having the "inside scoop" on antidepressant efficacy lead one to suicide?
Klavot
Posted by Klavot on June 24, 2007, at 15:26:37
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant, posted by linkadge on June 24, 2007, at 12:25:16
> What do you mean by intercept? There is very little proof of antidepressants being more effective than placebos.
>
> LinkadgeSome time back I was rebuked over at the alternative board for mentioning that there is nil evidence that homeopathy works. I don't have a problem with people questioning AD efficacy; I just wish there could be universal standards on different boards for asking awkward questions.
Klavot
Posted by Cecilia on June 24, 2007, at 15:42:52
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on June 24, 2007, at 7:37:51
> I wish Dr. Bob would intercept these
> conversations about the lack of anti-depressant
> efficacy. I'd love to hear *his* views, being
> a psychiatrist, but I think he can't as
> moderator.
>
> SquigglesThe original question was not about the efficacy of AD's in general, obviously they do work for some people, but about docs with treatnment resistant depression, which by defintion is non-responsive to multiple meds. I don't think doctors are like pilots, they aren't required to have a yearly physical, I'm sure there are many many doctors on AD's and if they work for them, fine, no one need ever know. And even if they don't, plenty of depressed doctors, like depressed other people, work and contribute to the general betterment of society even though they are miserable their entire lives. Not that every depressed person can, but many do, the world is full of people who go to work every day and when people say "how are you" they answer "fine" when inside they're thinking "suicidal". Cecilia
Posted by linkadge on June 24, 2007, at 17:18:25
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant Depr, posted by Klavot on June 24, 2007, at 15:19:29
Well, I had a doctor (at the psychiatric unit in a Hospital in Waterloo Ontario Canada) say that the majority of the effect of these drugs is the placebo effect. Actually, she didn't volenteer the information, but we got to discussing them and she admitted I was right.
Anyhow, the point being, is that I am sure there are a number of doctors who think the drug effect is mainly placebo. They probably don't care though as long as they feel they can help the patient in some way.
So I am saying that I think the doctors probably know more about the treatments than we do. Just like how one of my best friend's fathers (a doctor who administered ECT) refused to allow his son to have ECT !!!
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on June 24, 2007, at 20:22:16
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant Depr » Klavot, posted by linkadge on June 24, 2007, at 17:18:25
Tells you somehing about ECT being effective I would think. I had a pdoc once who claimed he tried every med before prescribing them. I doubt it but that's what he said. Love Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on June 25, 2007, at 3:15:29
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant Depr, posted by med_empowered on June 23, 2007, at 15:42:00
Some of them take opiates, but I suppose someone has made that obvious point.
Posted by stargazer2 on June 25, 2007, at 9:19:24
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant, posted by Sigismund on June 25, 2007, at 3:15:29
I looked at my doctor one day and I was feeling pretty good and I could see he was having a "bad" day and I asked him if he was ever depressed. He said yes and that is why I think he can relate so much to the way I feel and always be able to give me hope when I feel there is none left.
It helps to have experienced depression for oneself tobe able to relate it personally. I would never hold having depression against him as a negative thing, I consider it positive and it is obvious he has experienced alot of the same things as myself.
Could you imagine a doctor that hasn't been there to be able to relate to what you are feeling with any honesty having never felt those intense and devastating emotions.
I wasgladto hear him say this although we never discussed this in any more detail, except when he says it will geet better I do believe him from the way he can relate to me.
Stargazer
Posted by Phillipa on June 25, 2007, at 19:46:55
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant, posted by stargazer2 on June 25, 2007, at 9:19:24
Same with nurses used to make me angry when they didn't understand how horribly a patient was feeling. I mean they may have cut themself or taken an overdose helps if the person caring for them has been in their shoes. I remember a patient whose med pooped out she was hospitalized and started on a med she was an ER nurse and went home and back to work and was readmitted the next day. She looked into my eyes exploded in tears saying but I'm doing what the docs said why won't my med work now. I literally could feel myself almost become a part of her her pain was so real I was then able to fully understand. And had been on paxil first ad when thyroid went and I totally understood. Shortly after I had to leave as I got too sick to work but I'll never forget her and wonder a lot if she found a med that worked for her. Empathy is so important. Love Phillipa
Posted by stargazer2 on June 25, 2007, at 23:00:27
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant, posted by Phillipa on June 25, 2007, at 19:46:55
Empathy is so important and when doctors and nurses in psychiatry don't even try to get it I wonder why they go into the field in the first place unless based on what I saw there some try to do as little as possible and on a medical or surgical unit there is too much to do physically for a patient if you ignored them they would go down the tubes pretty quickly. Granted some psych disorders like schizophrenia or psychosis are so serious the best nurses and doctors are still at a loss as to what to do except give medication which is about all you can do sometimes to get someone back to a place where you can talk to them but you can still be empathetic even when they are really in the middle of any crisis.
SG
Posted by BabyBunny on June 26, 2007, at 9:05:28
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant, posted by stargazer2 on June 25, 2007, at 23:00:27
I so agree with the last 2 posts! I too feel empathy is VERY important when dealing with someone who has any kind of illness. Not only from the medical community, but from family and friends as well.
But I do feel that at least sympathy should be a requirement of anyone who is in the medical field. Even though there's nothing like going through it to truly understand it.
I too wonder why many Psychiatrists are in the field. I think maybe they started out with good intentions but get burnt out after seeing so much grief and suffering day in, day out. Or maybe they just find it fascinating. Of course there's always the nice salary...
Excellent point to you both! And I have ALWAYS felt that to truly understand an illness, one must endure himself/herself. I really do. And so does my mom as she has been having panic attacks for gosh 40 years? They used to think she was insane.
Take good care everyone and please remember to be extra kind to those who are going through a tough time. Because we all know how it feels and it isn't good.
Have a great day!
Hugs,
Baby Bunny
Posted by Sigismund on June 26, 2007, at 15:39:10
In reply to Re: What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant, posted by stargazer2 on June 25, 2007, at 23:00:27
When my mother was hospitalised with depression the psychiatrist would turn up at a time of his own choosing and have her taken out of meals so she could have a 'consultation' with him.
She had no objection to this, and I think it was because she had long ago abandoned hope and felt that there was at least some chance that his treatments would finish her off.
They're not always the most sensitive lot.
Posted by Sentience on June 30, 2007, at 10:41:29
In reply to What Happens to Docs if they get TX Resistant Depr, posted by Phillipa on June 23, 2007, at 14:12:09
Think of mechanics and the lemons they tend to drive...then think physician and the number of physicians who would have a doc that they would consult...
Docs make the worst patients because you can't tell them anything...they already know it all don't they???
Posted by kingcolon on July 28, 2007, at 19:36:07
In reply to Re: docs and depression » ttee, posted by BabyBunny on June 24, 2007, at 13:54:48
> That's sad. They're people too. But it just makes me doubt psychiatric drugs even more.
>
> Why are they giving out this stuff like candy if it's so terrible? Makes one wonder...
>
>
> > BTW, Dr. Kay Jamison is a renowned expert on bipolar as suffers from the illness. But she is NOT a practicing psychiatrist and has a Ph.D in Psychology. Most all state medical boards have rules of conduct for physicians and one of them is not to practice if you have mental illness. Just like if you are a pilot, you can not take ANY psychiatric meds (even Prozac) and still fly. This is an automatic FAA grounding. A doctor would need to stop practicing if he needed to take psychoactive drugs, or take them and not tell anyone. They don't want surgeons operating on people while on mind alterning drugs. If they went for psychiatric help in their local community, the risk is too great. Doctors don't get treatment for depression and this leads to an increased percentage of suicides.
>
>
I HAD to respond to this, as the whole thread seems to believe that doctors are not allowed to practice if they have mental illness or need to take psychiatric medicines. I am in health care, and personally know at least a half a dozen doctors who are in treatment for various mental illnesses, who see doctors themselves, and take psychoactive substances for appropriate treatment. Some of them are in physician's health programs which deal with this issue, and which virtually every state has. I know of several who are followed by the state medical boards as well. I'm not sure if you would be happy knowing this, but I sure am. State medical boards do NOT prohibit such doctors from practicing if they are receiving appropriate treatment; and there are countless doctors being treated entirely unknown to their medical boards as well. What I'm concerned about are the doctors who are not being treated and practice medicine. I would see any doctor in treatment without the slightest reservation if I knew he was being treated properly, including and in fact preferably those who are known to their medical boards and being monitored. The docs I know who are in treatment are some of the best I've ever met as they have been where we are.
Posted by Squiggles on July 28, 2007, at 20:39:18
In reply to Re: docs and depression, posted by kingcolon on July 28, 2007, at 19:36:07
There is an advantage to doctors who have
experienced depression, or bipolar disorder,
or anxiety, etc. in that they are able to
empathize with greater imagination and
comparison to what the patient is saying.
Of course they are treated, otherwise they'd
running around like mad professors (yuk yuk yuk,
no offense).Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on July 28, 2007, at 21:33:00
In reply to Re: docs and depression, posted by kingcolon on July 28, 2007, at 19:36:07
Same with nurses. There are a lot on this site too and therapists. Makes them able to prescribe better and understand what the patient is feeling as they are in or were in their shoes. Heck most of the nurses I worked with were on antidepressants, or a benzo. And a lot I didn't know about. With drug testing just brought our prescriptions bottles from the doc it was fine. Love Phillipa
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