![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by football on May 4, 2007, at 22:42:17
It angers me how many people who could greatly benefit from it have no idea that it exists, and think Prozac is their only and best option.
I wish I could spread the word somehow...
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 4, 2007, at 23:53:03
In reply to If I was rich I would make a pro-Nardil commercial, posted by football on May 4, 2007, at 22:42:17
HERE ARE FOUR REASONS PEOPLE AVOID TAKING MAOIs (ex: Parnate and Nardil)
1. Most pdocs dont even bother to study any of the drugs from the pre-Prozac era. With no knowledge of MAOIs and only rumors of its dangers, they think "why try that old drug when the new ones must be better because they are new." What great logic. My two previous pdocs had great logical reasoning, didnt they?
2. The alleged "deadly" MAOI diet, which is a joke. You have to give up cheese and soy sauce, which I dont like doing. But banana peels? Yeah, man, I dont know how I make it. However, I do eat cheese and soy sauce all the time in small amounts (Disclaimer: Do not follow my habits) with zero reactions on my BP monitor.
3. "MAOIs are deadly." Yes, they can be dangerous when mixing with other drugs, BUT so can SSRIs (see Anna Nicole Smith's son). In other words, MAOIs are no more dangerous than anything else.
4. The Nardil weight gain: I can only speak for myself, but I have lost 10 lbs. in my first five weeks on Nardil because of exercise and healthy eating habits. I realize some people may gain weight no matter what on Nardil, just as I realize some people may gain weight no matter what that are NO DRUGS.
BOTTOM LINE: It is a SHAME that all those misconceptions exist because MAOIs can be MIRACLE drugs for some, especially those of YOU who have failed for years to get satisfactory results on SSRIs. If you feel like you are needlessly suffering, then I strongly recommend that you do a two-month trail on one. If your pdoc is not willing to agree to it, then simply find another pdoc that will (usually very easy to find at your local college hospital because they actually study and are educated on the new AND old drugs).
Michael
PS. I can't leave without saying this: Meds + therapy (specifically CBT) is the best combination to healing or recovery.
Posted by willyee on May 5, 2007, at 0:58:39
In reply to FOUR misconceptions about the GREATNESS of MAOIs, posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 4, 2007, at 23:53:03
I think your really dead on,but here are some things that come into play,
If people live in a area anything like mine they are limited in getting a maoi.
First in my area the docs know each other,and have a little knitted family.Its almost as if each doc is the same.You can find one that thinks on there own,but its guess work in searching.
Also to see a doc,you have to break these barriers....
1.Make sure the doc is "seeing new patients at this current time"2.Make sure they arent booked until "next winter"
3.Make sure they accept your insurance,im sure many people are on medicare,sorry to assume this but its a fact.
4.Wait for your appt,make sure you have one close enough to get too,some people might have limited means of transportation.
5.Go through tons of writing and paper work on your first visit.
Finaly attempt to have this new doc opt a maoi,on a first visit,with the doc getting to know u for the first time,it will be very very hard for some people to be in the presence of a pdoc who will say "ok" to a maoi at this point.
So about facing and heading to a new doc when refused one is very discouraging for some,as it only leaves a very bumpy road ahead for a second attempt.
This whole scenerio might be different for some,i can only say i envy those people and am currently being literaly thrown out of my living quarters,with a min time frame to find a new place to live myself.Id like to move on to a place where i dont feel im at the mercy of a doc due to the difficulty in getting a new one.
Im in a horiffic spot now,and i want to go to a place where getting a doc isnt so hard.
Sorry to switch up there,hope i still made a valid post to the topic with my included self loathing.
> HERE ARE FOUR REASONS PEOPLE AVOID TAKING MAOIs (ex: Parnate and Nardil)
>
> 1. Most pdocs dont even bother to study any of the drugs from the pre-Prozac era. With no knowledge of MAOIs and only rumors of its dangers, they think "why try that old drug when the new ones must be better because they are new." What great logic. My two previous pdocs had great logical reasoning, didnt they?
>
> 2. The alleged "deadly" MAOI diet, which is a joke. You have to give up cheese and soy sauce, which I dont like doing. But banana peels? Yeah, man, I dont know how I make it. However, I do eat cheese and soy sauce all the time in small amounts (Disclaimer: Do not follow my habits) with zero reactions on my BP monitor.
>
> 3. "MAOIs are deadly." Yes, they can be dangerous when mixing with other drugs, BUT so can SSRIs (see Anna Nicole Smith's son). In other words, MAOIs are no more dangerous than anything else.
>
> 4. The Nardil weight gain: I can only speak for myself, but I have lost 10 lbs. in my first five weeks on Nardil because of exercise and healthy eating habits. I realize some people may gain weight no matter what on Nardil, just as I realize some people may gain weight no matter what that are NO DRUGS.
>
> BOTTOM LINE: It is a SHAME that all those misconceptions exist because MAOIs can be MIRACLE drugs for some, especially those of YOU who have failed for years to get satisfactory results on SSRIs. If you feel like you are needlessly suffering, then I strongly recommend that you do a two-month trail on one. If your pdoc is not willing to agree to it, then simply find another pdoc that will (usually very easy to find at your local college hospital because they actually study and are educated on the new AND old drugs).
>
> Michael
>
>
> PS. I can't leave without saying this: Meds + therapy (specifically CBT) is the best combination to healing or recovery.
Posted by Cecilia on May 5, 2007, at 9:19:02
In reply to If I was rich I would make a pro-Nardil commercial, posted by football on May 4, 2007, at 22:42:17
Hold on a while until you make the commercial. I had no effects whatsoever from Nardil until 5 and a half weeks, then excruciatingly painful and terrifying effects. Maoi levels build up gradually in your system -beware. I've tried all the MAOI's; Nardil, Parnate, Marplan, Emsam, and moclobemide with no benefits and terrible side effects from all. Maoi's are not miracles. If they really worked as well as some people claim it wouldn't be so hard to find a doctor to prescribe them. I had no trouble getting doctors to prescribe them, but they certainly did nothing wonderful for me. Cecilia
Posted by Cecilia on May 5, 2007, at 9:30:25
In reply to FOUR misconceptions about the GREATNESS of MAOIs, posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 4, 2007, at 23:53:03
CBT is the biggest joke in the world (only not very funny). It's just a way of blaming the patient, you're not thinking positive thoughts, your depression is your own fault. And Dr. Burns' absurd chapters on overcoming shame are ridiculious and cruel. You have a lot of shame, go out and do things that give you more shame. Yeah and why not if you break every bone in your body except two toes, cure your broken bones by breaking those two as well? He's an idiot. Cecilia
Posted by Phillipa on May 5, 2007, at 11:15:34
In reply to And about CBT, posted by Cecilia on May 5, 2007, at 9:30:25
On CBT I tend to agree as my Cbtist looked at me and said I would be fine if I volunteered. On medicaire money would help. She also when I mentioned age looked me up and down and it was obvious that she thought I looked old and not capable of doing anything other than she suggested which was read to elderly in a nursing home. So there's my rant. And that click of docs is very real even in a large area like Charlotte. And you can not change pdocs in a practice even if after the first appointment it is obvious you don't hit it off. Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on May 5, 2007, at 12:08:52
In reply to Re: If I was rich I would make a pro-Nardil commercial, posted by Cecilia on May 5, 2007, at 9:19:02
What were the terrable effects that you had? I am curious since my expereince with parnate was mixed.
Linkadge
Posted by football on May 5, 2007, at 12:42:20
In reply to And about CBT, posted by Cecilia on May 5, 2007, at 9:30:25
> CBT is the biggest joke in the world (only not very funny). It's just a way of blaming the patient, you're not thinking positive thoughts, your depression is your own fault. And Dr. Burns' absurd chapters on overcoming shame are ridiculious and cruel. You have a lot of shame, go out and do things that give you more shame. Yeah and why not if you break every bone in your body except two toes, cure your broken bones by breaking those two as well? He's an idiot. Cecilia
Go to google scholar and search it. It has been proven to be very effective.
Posted by willyee on May 5, 2007, at 13:53:10
In reply to Re: And about CBT, posted by football on May 5, 2007, at 12:42:20
> > CBT is the biggest joke in the world (only not very funny). It's just a way of blaming the patient, you're not thinking positive thoughts, your depression is your own fault. And Dr. Burns' absurd chapters on overcoming shame are ridiculious and cruel. You have a lot of shame, go out and do things that give you more shame. Yeah and why not if you break every bone in your body except two toes, cure your broken bones by breaking those two as well? He's an idiot. Cecilia
>
> Go to google scholar and search it. It has been proven to be very effective.The only problem i have with cbt is if the industry is to present us with the belief that were dealing with a chemical imbalance of some sort,and justify drugs which otherwise would be illegal for a bad mood,then thats one thing.
But on that same note they also recomend that talk therapy being implemented,there are very few physical illness that use talk as a therputic option.
Now i dont disvalue it,im sure plain and simple a lot of people from the disease need some spoiled time,they deserve it,lot of people stay quiet and live a strong life never complaining etc,
Not limiting it to that scenerio,i can certainly see the value in opening up to someone who is there to listen to you and not judge and offer advice that might actualy pretain to truly coping with the illness opposed to what family memembers and the like sometimes do with the "snap out of it"
I just dont believe its a actual vital treatment option as a medication might be in most cases,some people live good lives,and are limited to enjoying them because of pyhsical conditions that hault it.I dont know not sure how to word it best,i just get a little frustrated when anyone gets almost offened when a patient is on medication without therapy.They make a face like the person is insane.
Logicaly just my opinion but the two contradict themselves,so i dont see how it is at certain docs required.
Also some people can afford one co payment a month,and have to choose,id love to go to therapy,i dont have the option of 2 co payments,so having to choose one i choose medication managment,yet im perscuted from time to time for not seeing a therapist,lol money talks i cant get in with my looks i tried that and was escorted by security.
I think people are very defensive about treatments when they work for them,be it a certain class of medication,a technique etc,and i dont think a person inncently commenting about it realises this sometimes.This causes tension and is why i try to adapt the attitude of hey,if it helps preach it,love it,just dont push it.
Were all pulling straws,i hope everyone who deals with it finds a solid rock to grab instead,i wish everyone well.
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 5, 2007, at 18:18:21
In reply to Re: If I was rich I would make a pro-Nardil commercial, posted by Cecilia on May 5, 2007, at 9:19:02
I do not know why you opted to JUMP to conclusions. No one said MAOIs work for ALL people, just as SSRIs (or headache medicine or Tums, for that matter) dont work for everyone (Prozac is the worst med ever, in MY OPINION, but I guess it works for others).
MAOIs have been around for 50+ years for one reason: They work with a lot of ppl. If not they would have been LONG GONE. And they will be here for years after we are both gone, too.
Maybe you didnt take the MAOIs long enough. Maybe you didnt take them at a high enough dosage. Maybe you combined them with the wrong meds. Or quite simply, maybe they weren't meant to work for you, which of course can happen to people.
Hoping you find something that works, Michael
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 5, 2007, at 18:29:37
In reply to And about CBT, posted by Cecilia on May 5, 2007, at 9:30:25
CBT has been proven, when taught correctly, to help the majority of people, especially when used in combination with medicines.
CBT is a joke? No ma'am. The person trying to teach you CBT may have been a joke with his or her CBT style. In fact, I had to go through 3-4 CBT "experts" before I finally found someone who knew what they were doing. For your info, there are several versions of CBT.
I had one CBT "expert" ask me a question, then after every answer I gave him, he replied "Why do you think that?" Then I would give another answer and he replied "Why do you think that?" Now that was a joke, and if you experience something like that I'm sorry. But that's a terrible style of CBT and there is much better out there.
Also there are other factors why some may see CBT as "the biggest joke in the world"? If you are fortunate enough to find a good CBT therapist, you have to do the homework and assignments. It takes time and patience to change your thoughts and perceptions.
And who the **** said anything about Dr. Burns? His book is absurd and has been trashed on this website. The only part of his book that has any value to me are the chapters on meds.
If you want to read a good book on CBT, check out The Anxiety Workbook by Edmond Bourne.
http://www.amazon.com/Anxiety-Phobia-Workbook-Fourth/dp/1572244135
Posted by ace on May 6, 2007, at 1:39:05
In reply to If I was rich I would make a pro-Nardil commercial, posted by football on May 4, 2007, at 22:42:17
> It angers me how many people who could greatly benefit from it have no idea that it exists, and think Prozac is their only and best option.
>
> I wish I could spread the word somehow...Brother I know what you mean!!!!!!!!!
In australia, where I'm located, there is only like 500 people on nardil, while their is over 300 000 on SSRI's (which I think are FAR less superior to NARDIL and PARNATE in the VAST majority of cases)
Unfortunately the $$$$$$$ speaks loud.
I know the scam going on....I have told the world as much as I can about the efficay of Nardil.
I feel strongly this drug, if instituted, in certain individuals, would have a dramatic effect, to the extent where they can be 'recovered', as opposed too feel 'slightly better' on some cash-cow SSRI.
I will continue to spread the word!!!!
I have messaged FDA in US, rang and messaged equivalant body in Australia, and have filed many 'psitive report' forms in regard to Nardil. LINK are probably sick of me telling me how great their drug is!
This chemical compound was created by God!!!!!!!
Ace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Cecilia on May 6, 2007, at 4:49:47
In reply to Re: If I was rich I would make a pro-Nardil commercial » Cecilia, posted by linkadge on May 5, 2007, at 12:08:52
My Nardil experience (in 1992) 28 days at 45 mg day with no effects of any kind. Then 10 days at 60 mg, again no effects, good or bad. On day 38 woke up with an excruciating headache (blood pressure not elevated so not a hypertensive crisis), then developed EXTREME eye pain with severe eye dryness and a bizarre hard to describe but VERY painful "metallic" feeling in my joints and muscles. Had the same type of eye pain with Emsam but it came on more gradually, so I stuck it out, far too long, desperate for this last chance AD to work, until it got worse and worse and I couldn't stand it any more. Parnate and Marplan didn't give me the pain but virtually no sleep, 90 minutes a night maximum was all I ever got on Parnate, could get 4 hours on Marplan but woke up at least 4 times during each 4 hour stretch. ( I have also tried Desipramine, imipramine, Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutrin, Effexor, serzone, Buspar, Remeron, lithium, nortriptyline, St. John's Wort, Celexa, gabapentin, SAM-e, methlyphenidate, dexedrine, zyprexa, trazodone, reboxetine, lamictal, moclobemide, tianeptine, Cymbalta, milnacipran, 5-HTP and rTMS. Nothing has ever helped my depression in the slightest. Benzos help my anxiety a little. I also failed therapy, the therapist I saw the longest, (632 sessions) told me "I can't help you, you obviously need to be depressed." Of course, she waited til I had spent over $40,000 on her before figuring this out. And that was from 1990 to 1997, would probably cost double that now. She figured out she couldn't help me after she got a new job, before that she kept saying, trust the process, it takes time etc etc. Once she didn't need the money any more, the "process" was no more. Yeah, I have anger. Every time I see an AD commercial on TV or a magazine article about how "treatable" depression is I want to scream "NO IT"S NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cecilia
Posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2007, at 17:53:21
In reply to Nardil experience » linkadge, posted by Cecilia on May 6, 2007, at 4:49:47
Cecelia so what do you do for depression is so bad you do not function at all or are you a functioning depressive? Love Phillipa
Posted by Cecilia on May 7, 2007, at 4:45:34
In reply to Re: Nardil experience » Cecilia, posted by Phillipa on May 6, 2007, at 17:53:21
I function. What other choice is there? If I were brave enough for suicide I would have done it 40 years ago. Besides I'm sure the afterlife, if there is one, is going to be even worse. Whoever designed this horrible world must have something even worse planned for later. Cecilia
Posted by scratchpad on May 7, 2007, at 13:44:34
In reply to Re: And about CBT » Cecilia, posted by Phillipa on May 5, 2007, at 11:15:34
> On CBT I tend to agree as my Cbtist looked at me and said I would be fine if I volunteered. On medicaire money would help. She also when I mentioned age looked me up and down and it was obvious that she thought I looked old and not capable of doing anything other than she suggested which was read to elderly in a nursing home. So there's my rant. And that click of docs is very real even in a large area like Charlotte. And you can not change pdocs in a practice even if after the first appointment it is obvious you don't hit it off. Love Phillipa
Phillipa, does this mean that you aren't seeing a therapist, or have you looked for one who suits you better?
sp
Posted by FredPotter on May 7, 2007, at 18:25:14
In reply to Re: And about CBT » Cecilia, posted by Phillipa on May 5, 2007, at 11:15:34
When my CBTist said, "stroke the cat" and "play music while you do the washing up", I decided to call it a day. I'd like to see a Jungian therapist. It may not work, but it would be interesting. CBT is so BORING.
I'm beginning to think my failure to respond to treatment is because there's nothing wrong with me. Perhaps it's part of being human, growth of the soul etc
Fred
Posted by FredPotter on May 7, 2007, at 18:30:08
In reply to Sorry MAOIs did not work for you, BUT ... » Cecilia, posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 5, 2007, at 18:18:21
someone did say they always work, if at the right dose and taken for long enough
Posted by FredPotter on May 7, 2007, at 18:48:49
In reply to Nardil experience » linkadge, posted by Cecilia on May 6, 2007, at 4:49:47
Cecilia I'm very sorry to hear your story. Mine's the same only I haven't spent quite that much money on it. CBT is supposed to work in about 12 sessions. The only thing that's helped is Xanax for anxiety - and that's the one thing doctors try to make me stop taking!
There's a well-known rugby player who comes on NZ TV and says how one day he looked in the mirror and didn't like the bloke looking back. "Depression - there is a way through it - just notice the little things in life". I appreciate him coming forward, but I don't recognise his symptoms or the "cure"
Fred
Posted by Phillipa on May 7, 2007, at 18:53:09
In reply to Re: And about CBT » Phillipa, posted by scratchpad on May 7, 2007, at 13:44:34
SP seeing a PHD. Still it seems like a generic prescription to volunteer. And she knows I'm not ready yet and when I am it will be in a hospital setting. Always wanted one to talk about problems with but no one here does the lets go over family history first. So much she doesn't know. And she's the one who recommended the pdoc who raised my benzos so high. I know what I have to do with a hierchy of getting out and about. Maybe the money could be spent more productively. But one more chance first. That's fair four sessions. Love Phillipa
Posted by Cecilia on May 8, 2007, at 9:47:14
In reply to Re: Nardil experience » Cecilia, posted by FredPotter on May 7, 2007, at 18:48:49
Well the $40,000 I wasted was actually on a psychodynamic therapist. I only spent a few thousand more on CBT therapists, EMDR therapists and others to try to recover from how much the psychodynamic therapist hurt me. The psychodynamic therapist was certainly the one who hurt me the most, but the CBT ones were by far the stupidest of the lot. Yes, Xanax helps more than any med or therapist, but still not that much, sometimes takes the edge off the pain a little. Cecilia
Posted by Racer on May 9, 2007, at 11:19:11
In reply to And about CBT, posted by Cecilia on May 5, 2007, at 9:30:25
> CBT is the biggest joke in the world (only not very funny). It's just a way of blaming the patient, you're not thinking positive thoughts, your depression is your own fault. And Dr. Burns' absurd chapters on overcoming shame are ridiculious and cruel. You have a lot of shame, go out and do things that give you more shame. Yeah and why not if you break every bone in your body except two toes, cure your broken bones by breaking those two as well? He's an idiot. Cecilia
Please be civil. While everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, this may not be the place to express all of them. Many people on this site have been helped by therapy, including CBT, and what you've written here may feel accusatory or insulting to them.
If you have any questions about what is or is not allowed under the civility guidelines of this site, please check out the FAQ at http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil Any follow up to this deputy action should be directed to the Admin board, and should also be civil.
Racer, acting as deputy
Posted by Racer on May 9, 2007, at 11:54:44
In reply to FOUR misconceptions about the GREATNESS of MAOIs, posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 4, 2007, at 23:53:03
>
> 1. Most pdocs dont even bother to study any of the drugs from the pre-Prozac era. With no knowledge of MAOIs and only rumors of its dangers, they think "why try that old drug when the new ones must be better because they are new." What great logic.I will disagree that this is true of *most* pdocs. It seems to be true of most GPs, and many pdocs. Many other pdocs may consider MAOIs only after other medications have been tried unsuccessfully. Saying "most," though, may be an unfair generalization. The last four pdocs I've seen all discussed MAOIs with me. It's possible that it would be more accurate for your to write something a little more focussed on your own experience: "most pdocs I've seen haven't bothered..."
It's true, though, that MAOIs are not used as frequently as newer drugs, for a variety of reasons, and that many pdocs don't have as much experience using them. I'm only trying to point out the generalization.
> 2. The alleged "deadly" MAOI diet, which is a joke. You have to give up cheese and soy sauce, which I dont like doing.
First, as you say, *you* haven't had reactions to small amounts of soy sauce or cheese. Mileage varies. 'Nuf said.
But what I will point out is that many people would find the MAOI diet more onerous than you seem to. And many other people have other issues which might make the diet a problem, as well. My T, who is a Certified Eating Disorders Specialist, would hit the roof at the suggestion of an MAOI for her clients, because of the diet -- she says it's counterproductive for eating disorder treatment, and I think she's right.
My point, though, is pretty simple here: what may not be a problem *for you,* may be a serious problem for someone else. Let's be respectful of those people who would not find the diet manageable.
>
> 3. "MAOIs are deadly." Yes, they can be dangerous when mixing with other drugs, BUT so can SSRIs (see Anna Nicole Smith's son). In other words, MAOIs are no more dangerous than anything else.Actually, that's not quite true. I won't belabor the point, but MAOIs -- and TCAs, for that matter -- are more deadly *in overdose* than SSRIs. Yes, there are odd reactions to any drug. That's not what most doctors are concerned with regarding the safety of MAOIs -- they're concerned with suicide attempts, in patients who are depressed and possibly more prone to attempts on their own lives. And the newer antidepressants are absolutely safer than the older ones.
>
> 4. The Nardil weight gain: I can only speak for myself, but I have lost 10 lbs. in my first five weeks on Nardil because of exercise and healthy eating habits. I realize some people may gain weight no matter what on Nardil,From what I've seen on these boards, and from what I've read in the literature, and even from what doctors have told me, you seem to be in the minority on this. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that you've been taking it for only a short time?
Regardless, though, since many people do report gaining weight -- often considerable amounts of weight -- on Nardil, how about respecting their experience, by avoiding either a generalized comment on the weight gain, or the suggestion -- which I suspect you didn't realize your comments could be seen as making -- that the weight gain is their own fault? Weight gain is a serious issue for many people, people without eating disorders, and it's something that even a lot of doctors will blame the patient for. It's easier than saying, "well, I have a drug that will help with the depression -- but you'll gain a lot of weight, and I won't be able to help you with that part..."
>
> PS. I can't leave without saying this: Meds + therapy (specifically CBT) is the best combination to healing or recovery.CBT is a fine form of therapy. It is not helpful for everyone. Meds and therapy have consistently been shown to be superior in combination than either is alone. But I don't think we can say that any specific model is the best. Many studies use CBT because it's easier to standardize for research purposes. That doesn't mean it's the best model out there.
Michael, I'm very happy that you're so enthusiastic about MAOIs, and I hope they work for you. I even think it's great that you're encouraging other people to consider trying them, as well. I just want to caution you that sometimes what you say may not come across quite as you mean it to.
For instance, I know how I might react to a post like this if I weren't in my current pretty-OK state. I consider Parnate sometimes -- BECAUSE I could use it as an excuse to restrict, and therefore lose weight. But I know that I won't be taking any MAOI anytime soon, and sometimes when I read something with strong encouragement to try one, I "hear" criticism, that it's my own fault I'm not getting relief because if only I'd be less rigid and try this drug I'd get better. That it's unreasonable of me to consider the dietary restrictions to be a problem -- despite the fact that I eat pickles nearly daily, and use soy sauce in dinner several times a week. That weight gain "shouldn't" be a big deal, since getting over the depression "should" be the only thing I care about. Can you put yourself into my skin for a minute, or the skin of someone else like me?
I hope Nardil is as great for you as you're hoping. I just want you to see that your enthusiasm may not be communicating quite what you have in mind to everyone, in hopes that you may learn something from it. Maybe it will help you communicate your enthusiasm in a way that does get your point across even more effectively.
Peace.
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on May 10, 2007, at 6:04:08
In reply to I'm gonna respectfully disagree on some of this » UgottaHaveHope, posted by Racer on May 9, 2007, at 11:54:44
If the truth be told, all of your points are good. Yes I do write with a certain slant or "hidden agenda" but doesnt everyone on this board? Believe it or not, I am a staff writer for the one of top 15 largest newspapers in the USA. I know the difference when I am writing facts and when I am sneaking editorials (which I would get reprimanded for at work).
1. ALL 15+ pdocs and GPs I have dealt with over the past 10 years to the best of my knowledge from conversations with them either never tried a MAOI with a single patient or knew little or anything about them, other than they "heard" they are dangerous. You have found better-educated pdocs.
2. In my OPINION, I think the MAOI diet is overrated for those on Nardil because many seem to have low BP, while I cannot comment on those taking Parnate. In my OPINION, I feel like at least half of the banned foods are on there because of liability issues and disclaimers. For me, I just eat something and then monitor my BP, but I will follow YOUR advice for MY disclaimer :) Consult your pdoc before trying any foods on any of the various MAOI diet lists (and the fact is there are a lot of different ones, some say some foods are OK while others differ. They need to come up with an official list.)
3. Now, with all due respect, this is the one point where I can say you followed in my footsteps with a "generalization." I basically said MAOIs can be deadly, but no more than SSRIs. If you mix an MAOI with the wrong drugs, you can suffer life-threatening consequences. And if you mix SSRIs or even Tylenol with a bunch of different medicinal and street drugs, it can be deadly also. Yes, everyone knows that TCAs are the most deadly in an overdose, but I never touched that issue, or got that deep. However, I guess it is good you brought it up for others to read and learn.
4. I can't really agree or disagree with you on Nardil weight gain. Jedi is a person who had success on Nardil, but gained a tremendous amount of weight, to the point where he had to stop the med. However, when I questioned him about it in detail, he said that he did not follow diet or exercise regiments like he could've. And I have found that to be the case with others. My pdoc, who is one of the founders of Emsam and reputed to be one of the top drug researchers in the world, said weight gain is not a major issue with Nardil, but then again he could've been planting a positive seed in my head so I would be convinced to try it (it worked lol :).
I think I have spent as much time as you reading these boards, specifically on Nardil. One time I was researching for almost 20 straight hours. There are a lot of X factors, such as other the effect of other meds with Nardil, and THE FACT the some people gain weight without taking ANY MEDS.
By no means whatsoever am I BLAMING anyone who gains weight on Nardil. That could have been an assumption on your part, but only because it was my fault for leaving the issue so open and not going in detail. And I DID give a disclaimer there, saying "I can only speak for myself ..." So I am neutral on all of this.5. I guess you countered me well here. I just said MEDS + THERAPY, which even you agree with. However I did put CBT in paranthesis, which was my sneaky way of being opinionated.
As far as your closing comments about "hearing criticism", I have no control over how you or anything else interprets anything.
I would say 99-percent of the posts on this board are thinly-vieled opinions. I feel a strong conviction to encourage and defend MAOIs because many others go out of their way to slam on the same drug for reasons even more illogical than mine.
I appreciate the dialogue though. You are a writer too, even if it not your profession. You would be a good attorney, picking out assumptions a mile away and forcing them to justify or prove that assumption. You are very smart and intelligent and I appreciate you for putting so much though into your response, even tho this is much longer than I usually like to write. But I have a great deal of respect for you and I welcome you anytime to present an opposing viewpoint on any of my posts. I think that is a good thing.
Thanks for all you do for this board, Michael
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
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