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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by polarbear206 on April 14, 2007, at 19:31:06
Posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 7:30:07
In reply to UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brains, posted by polarbear206 on April 14, 2007, at 19:31:06
> http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=7842
That's been known for a while PolarBear. It increases grey matter by up to 15%. And that may be be useful for some degenerative brain conditions. But you know what they say: it's quality not quantity that counts. :-)
Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on April 15, 2007, at 9:38:29
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 7:30:07
My question is whether this is the same study or a different study that is saying the same thing.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 11:15:41
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by linkadge on April 15, 2007, at 9:38:29
> My question is whether this is the same study or a different study that is saying the same thing.
>
> LinkadgeLooks like a different study, but any further
research confirmation is interesting. I am
referring to the work of Moore and Manji, of
which there are lots of hits on the net. Here
is one:
http://www.med.wayne.edu/Scribe/scribe00-01/scribew01/moore.htm
Posted by linkadge on April 15, 2007, at 11:50:58
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 11:15:41
Interesting. I am wondering if low dose lithium for longer periods of time would confer the same effect. I am also wondering whether this effect maxes out at a certain trophic level. I am also wondering if this extra matter is functional or simply ... deadweight ?
Linkadge
Posted by Polarbear206 on April 15, 2007, at 16:52:51
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 7:30:07
> > http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=7842
>
> That's been known for a while PolarBear. It increases grey matter by up to 15%. And that may be be useful for some degenerative brain conditions. But you know what they say: it's quality not quantity that counts. :-)
>
> SquigglesYes, I am aware of this, however, if there are some new psycho-babblers lurking who would benifit from some education, I pass it along. I am a psychiatric nurse and education is part of my job.
Polarbear
Posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 18:26:30
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by linkadge on April 15, 2007, at 11:50:58
I am also wondering if this extra matter is functional or simply ... deadweight ?
>
> LinkadgeWell, I'm a long-term lithium user, and
I can tell you that my head has been feeling
heavier and heavier every year.Squiggles
Posted by notfred on April 15, 2007, at 18:36:39
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 7:30:07
> And that may be be useful for some degenerative brain conditions. But you know what they say: it's quality not quantity that counts. :-)
>
Loss of brain tissue does happen in mental illness
so hopefully the fact that some AD's and lithium
increase brain tissue acts as a counteraction.
Posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 19:07:47
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by notfred on April 15, 2007, at 18:36:39
> > And that may be be useful for some degenerative brain conditions. But you know what they say: it's quality not quantity that counts. :-)
> >
>
>
> Loss of brain tissue does happen in mental illness
> so hopefully the fact that some AD's and lithium
> increase brain tissue acts as a counteraction.
>
>As far as I know, that sounds highly speculative.
And as for injecting brain tissue, well, i guess you have to be a neurologist to assess the feasibility of that experiment.Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on April 15, 2007, at 20:51:30
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 19:07:47
I just wish I saw the impact of such neurotrophic effects. I mean, my mother has been on lithium many years and she is braindead (god bless her braindead soul).
In all fairness, she has been on a lot more than just lithium though.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 20:56:26
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by linkadge on April 15, 2007, at 20:51:30
Brain dead, huh? Well, it couldn't have
been the lithium then-- must have been the
other drugs. What are the other drugs she
takes, btw?Squiggles
Posted by notfred on April 15, 2007, at 21:05:24
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 19:07:47
> As far as I know, that sounds highly speculative.
I agree, hince the word hopefully, but you were also speculating:"And that may be be useful for some degenerative brain conditions."
When a person has demonstrated loss of brain tissue due to long term mental illness, I would think that qualifies as a degenerative brain condition
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2007, at 11:44:27
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by Squiggles on April 15, 2007, at 20:56:26
I'm not so sure. There have been a number of studies attmpting to *sses the possability of long term lithium induced cognative problems.
Some authors have suspected that long term lithium use can cause certain lingering cognative deficits.
Despite neurotrophic action, lithium shows no nootropic action in animal models.
She has been taking AP's too, although she is off them now. The benzodiazapines she took could also be another canididate for the cognative troubles.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on April 16, 2007, at 12:09:10
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2007, at 11:44:27
I don't think it has caused me any cognitive
problems. The only time I notice a cognitive
problem is when the lithium reaches a toxic level.
But that kind of effect can be seen with just about
any substance on the planet, including water.As for neurotrophic and nootrophic, the only
claim i am aware of is that there is an increase in grey matter - that would be nootrophic (new growth).
I think that is as neo as gene research-- exciting but very far away in practical purposes. That doesn't mean that lithium in itself is not a good drug for dementias, but not on account of this new discovery.Squiggles
Posted by globular cluster 0 on April 16, 2007, at 14:35:58
In reply to UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brains, posted by polarbear206 on April 14, 2007, at 19:31:06
Wait a minute, what drugs were the non-lithium-treated patients on? Were they on antipsychotics instead? (Or on more antipsychotics in general than the lithium-treated patients were?) If so, could we interpret the difference as a reduction in gray matter due to antipsychotics? I am just speculating here, but these possibilities make me very interested in reading the original article. But I couldn't find it online. Can anyone provide a link?
Posted by polarbear206 on April 16, 2007, at 15:26:46
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by globular cluster 0 on April 16, 2007, at 14:35:58
> Wait a minute, what drugs were the non-lithium-treated patients on? Were they on antipsychotics instead? (Or on more antipsychotics in general than the lithium-treated patients were?) If so, could we interpret the difference as a reduction in gray matter due to antipsychotics? I am just speculating here, but these possibilities make me very interested in reading the original article. But I couldn't find it online. Can anyone provide a link?
>I sent an e-mail to the person who wrote the article asking for a link to the the original study. I will post it as soon as I get a response.
Polarbear
Posted by polarbear206 on April 16, 2007, at 15:29:38
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by polarbear206 on April 16, 2007, at 15:26:46
> > Wait a minute, what drugs were the non-lithium-treated patients on? Were they on antipsychotics instead? (Or on more antipsychotics in general than the lithium-treated patients were?) If so, could we interpret the difference as a reduction in gray matter due to antipsychotics? I am just speculating here, but these possibilities make me very interested in reading the original article. But I couldn't find it online. Can anyone provide a link?
> >
>
>
>
> I sent an e-mail to the person who wrote the article asking for a link to the the original study. I will post it as soon as I get a response.
>
> Polarbear
>Well that was fast reply! He is going to contact the researchers and get back to me.
Polarbear
Posted by linkadge on April 16, 2007, at 16:35:47
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by polarbear206 on April 16, 2007, at 15:29:38
The first link stated that those on lithium had more grey matter than both bipolar patients not on lithium, and healthy subjects. So apparently there was an increase in grey matter over healthy controlls so I don't the difference was due to AP use.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on April 16, 2007, at 17:12:22
In reply to Re: UCLA study)Lithium builds grey matter BP brain, posted by linkadge on April 16, 2007, at 16:35:47
After how long? And in what area of the brain?
Squiggles
This is the end of the thread.
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