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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Ines on March 18, 2007, at 5:40:01
A while ago Meri posted a thread about overwhelming sadness; I only just read it and completely relate to it- like walking along and everything is more or less fine and suddenly you're filled with this overwhelming sadness that actually seems to hurt. So it got me thinking. I've been reading a couple of CBT books lately, and they work on the premise that you cannot have an emotion without a cognition, or a thought, and I'm not sure I beieve it. I often have feelings of sadness or angst overtake me for no apparent reason. I suppose one explanation could be that you have seen something that you associate with feeling sad, process it at a subconscious level, and it triggers that feeling. (which still makes the basic premise of CBT problematic...). More interesting, I've recently been reading a book on the brain and emotions by Antonio Damasio, and he describes a couple of situations where a woman was undergoing ECT, and the 'wrong' bit of the brain was stimulated by mistake. The woman burst out crying and saying she felt like her life was pointless and there was no hope, and she wanted to die. As soon as they stopped the electric current she was back to normal- she said that this feeling of despair had taken over out of the blue and she had no control over it. They repeated the process, hitting the same point, and the same thing happened again. She had no history of depression. Another case was that of a man undergoing ECT as well, who burst out laughing uncontrolably when they hit a certain area of the brain. Whatever he was looking at at that moment he decribed as hilarious. I seem to remember he said 'you guys, just standing around looking at me, you're so funny'.. I thought these case studies were really interesting- clearly there was no preceding thought in this case (although of course it's not a natural situation). I haven't finished reading the book, but so far Damasio's argument seems to be that the process of an emotion is an automatic respoonse to many stimuli, that it can and does often does start without a conscious thought, and that an emotion can then trigger particular thoughts, after which it becomes a feeling, i.e. you are aware of it and can think it through.
Long post and doesn't go anywhere.... but anyway, I thought it was interesting, so maybe some of you will find it intereting too!
Ines
Posted by Declan on March 18, 2007, at 16:50:31
In reply to overwhelming sadness/ thoughts and emotions, posted by Ines on March 18, 2007, at 5:40:01
Well, if you're walking along and all of a sudden you are filled with an overwhelming joy, you are going to have no trouble explaining it.
You will say 'look at the sky, look around you, isn't it obvious?'.In the same way you are walking along and you are filled with an overwhelming sadness.
Where does that come from?
IMO (unless you are unlucky at that moment) it has something to do with memory and experience, and memories can remind you that overwhelming sadness is appropriate, and then sometimes we get stuck there, until we can let go.
Posted by chiron on March 18, 2007, at 21:03:54
In reply to overwhelming sadness/ thoughts and emotions, posted by Ines on March 18, 2007, at 5:40:01
I agree, and it frustrates me that everyone seems so stuck in the cognitive philosophy. Look at PMS & Bipolar. It's not a simple cognitive formula. Right now I am feeling immensely sad & near tears, but I have nothing that I am really sad about.
Posted by Declan on March 19, 2007, at 14:55:57
In reply to Re: overwhelming sadness/ thoughts and emotions, posted by chiron on March 18, 2007, at 21:03:54
So it's not a case for you of being able to find the right words, then?
In this book I'm reading a character says this
"I happened to lose my life at one particular moment in time, and I have gone on living these 40 years or more with my life lost. As a person who finds himself in such a position, I have come to think that life is a far more limited thing than those in the middle of the maelstrom realise. The light shines into the act of life for only the briefest moment - perhaps only a matter of seconds. Once it is gone and one has failed to grasp its proferred revelation, there is no second chamce. One may have to live the rest of one's life in hopeless depths of loneliness and remorse. In that twilight world, one can no longer look forward to anything. All that such a person holds in his hands is the withered corpse of what should have been."
And somewhere else that same character says something like "I would give the rest of my life to know how I had lost the life I had. Not that I expect or want to get that life back, but just to know."That's from "The Wind-up Bird Chronicle", Haruki Murakami.
Posted by Ines on March 19, 2007, at 16:34:05
In reply to Re: overwhelming sadness/ thoughts and emotions, posted by Declan on March 19, 2007, at 14:55:57
Yep, I love japanese books for the complete weirdness that is actually closer to my reality than most english language lit... Have you read Banana Yoshimoto? I really like her too.
I love the way he says 'the light shines into the act of life for only the briefest moment'- I so often have a feeling that I can just about grasp how perfect a particular day or thing is, but only for a few seconds and then it's gone. It feels like torture, like that's what I could have if only whatever it is didn't get in the way...
Posted by elanor roosevelt on March 19, 2007, at 22:45:46
In reply to Re: overwhelming sadness/ thoughts and emotions, posted by Ines on March 19, 2007, at 16:34:05
i am a big fan of both haruki murakami and banana yoshimoto
both brilliant at exposing the layers of reality
Posted by tessellated on March 21, 2007, at 18:41:30
In reply to Re: overwhelming sadness/ thoughts and emotions, posted by elanor roosevelt on March 19, 2007, at 22:45:46
as far as the simple wiring goes, perception precedes emotion, which then precedes cognition in a very short feedback loop.
occipital nerve ends at hypothalamus, hypothalamus relays info to cerebral cortex, which then can create feedback.
thought is tertiary, but has "downstreaming" capability.
This is the end of the thread.
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