![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 40 to 64 of 64. Go back in thread:
Posted by kelv on January 17, 2007, at 4:55:26
In reply to Re: Depressives' sensitivity to stimulants!, posted by blueberry1 on January 16, 2007, at 6:37:09
> I believe stimulants can and do work just like antidepressants for longterm therapy in some people.
"IN SOME PEOPLE"-yes, but us humans are all euphoria addicts, and a bottle of Dexedrine in ones possession often produces a more, more, more, pattern of use, i have too often read of where ones Monthly supply goes in days-i know of one such individual whos 480 Dex 5mg script goes in a couple days binging, but again here i am talking of folks 'chasing a high' not widespread responsible use.
Canadian Gov't inquery into non-medical use of Amphetamines-1972.
91. Early hopes that amphetamines would prove to be an effective general treatment for severe depression were soon disappointed. Amphetamines often produce dependency when taken for longer than two or three weeks. Although these drugs are powerful stimulants and increase a depressed person's activity, they may also make him more anxious and agitated, deprive him of sleep, and may fail to elevate his mood or to reverse the fundamental depressive process. In some individuals, these drugs have been effective in relieving mild depression and chronic fatigue, however.
Posted by laima on January 17, 2007, at 9:01:18
In reply to Re: AMPHETAMINE-DEPRESSION STUDIES NOT ALWAYS CORR, posted by kelv on January 17, 2007, at 4:55:26
Why dismiss positive reports because negative ones also exist?> > I believe stimulants can and do work just like antidepressants for longterm therapy in some people.
>
> "IN SOME PEOPLE"-yes, but us humans are all euphoria addicts, and a bottle of Dexedrine in ones possession often produces a more, more, more, pattern of use, i have too often read of where ones Monthly supply goes in days-i know of one such individual whos 480 Dex 5mg script goes in a couple days binging, but again here i am talking of folks 'chasing a high' not widespread responsible use.
>
> Canadian Gov't inquery into non-medical use of Amphetamines-1972.
>
> 91. Early hopes that amphetamines would prove to be an effective general treatment for severe depression were soon disappointed. Amphetamines often produce dependency when taken for longer than two or three weeks. Although these drugs are powerful stimulants and increase a depressed person's activity, they may also make him more anxious and agitated, deprive him of sleep, and may fail to elevate his mood or to reverse the fundamental depressive process. In some individuals, these drugs have been effective in relieving mild depression and chronic fatigue, however.
>
>
>
>
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 17, 2007, at 10:48:21
In reply to Re: AMPHETAMINE-DEPRESSION STUDIES NOT ALWAYS CORR » kelv, posted by laima on January 17, 2007, at 9:01:18
Posted by linkadge on January 17, 2007, at 16:33:47
In reply to Re: AMPHETAMINE-DEPRESSION STUDIES NOT ALWAYS CORR » kelv, posted by laima on January 17, 2007, at 9:01:18
>yes, but us humans are all euphoria addicts, and >a bottle of Dexedrine in ones possession often >produces a more, more, more, pattern of use
Not necessarily. There is a tremendous amount of research these days into the neural basis of addiction. It has long been known that two individuals exposed to the same amount of drug vary widely in their respone, and further desire
to abuse it.For instance, one avenue of research shows that animals with higher levels of GDNF are less likely to abuse drugs. Whether or not they still get high is uncertain. Drugs like ibogaine are thought to work in part at least, by bostling levels of GDNF.
The activation of addiction genes intermediate early genes (ie cFOS, delta FosB) also varies from person to person. So one person might take a drug and crave it for months due to heavy activation of addiction genes, while another person does not.
Some people say marajuanna is addictive. Could have suprised me. I smoked a little and that was ok, but more than htat just made me feel weird.
>i have too often read of where ones Monthly >supply goes in days-i know of one such >individual whos 480 Dex 5mg script goes in a >couple days binging, but again here i am talking >of folks 'chasing a high' not widespread >responsible use.
I know people like that too. I don't really blame people for that response.
>Early hopes that amphetamines would prove to be >an effective general treatment for severe >depression were soon disappointed. Amphetamines >often produce dependency when taken for longer >than two or three weeks.
But yet they do not always produce dependance in those who use them for ADHD?
>Although these drugs are powerful stimulants and >increase a depressed person's activity, they may >also make him more anxious and agitated,
So can wellbutrin for some, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good drug for some.
>deprive him of sleep,
Welcome to my life on SSRI's
>and may fail to elevate his mood or to reverse >the fundamental depressive process.And we all know how effective SSRI's are at reverseing the fundimental depressive process.
>In some individuals, these drugs have been >effective in relieving mild depression and >chronic fatigue, however
Interesting sidenote.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 17, 2007, at 16:36:04
In reply to Why dismiss positive because neg exists? Exactly. (nm) » laima, posted by psychobot5000 on January 17, 2007, at 10:48:21
Not everybody's response to stimulants is that of excessive psychomotor activation and agitation.
For some depressives, stimulants calm them down, just like those with ADHD.
Again, when you activate the left prefrontal cortex, a brain circut is able to shut off overactive limbic circutry.
Thats why the right amount for the right person can actually reduce anxiety.
Linkadge
Posted by kelv on January 17, 2007, at 17:18:50
In reply to Re: AMPHETAMINE-DEPRESSION STUDIES NOT ALWAYS CORR, posted by linkadge on January 17, 2007, at 16:33:47
> >yes, but us humans are all euphoria addicts, and >a bottle of Dexedrine in ones possession often >produces a more, more, more, pattern of use
>
> Not necessarily. There is a tremendous amount of research these days into the neural basis of addiction. It has long been known that two individuals exposed to the same amount of drug vary widely in their respone, and further desire
> to abuse it.
>
> For instance, one avenue of research shows that animals with higher levels of GDNF are less likely to abuse drugs. Whether or not they still get high is uncertain. Drugs like ibogaine are thought to work in part at least, by bostling levels of GDNF.
>
> The activation of addiction genes intermediate early genes (ie cFOS, delta FosB) also varies from person to person. So one person might take a drug and crave it for months due to heavy activation of addiction genes, while another person does not.
>
> Some people say marajuanna is addictive. Could have suprised me. I smoked a little and that was ok, but more than htat just made me feel weird.
>
> >i have too often read of where ones Monthly >supply goes in days-i know of one such >individual whos 480 Dex 5mg script goes in a >couple days binging, but again here i am talking >of folks 'chasing a high' not widespread >responsible use.
>
> I know people like that too. I don't really blame people for that response.
>
> >Early hopes that amphetamines would prove to be >an effective general treatment for severe >depression were soon disappointed. Amphetamines >often produce dependency when taken for longer >than two or three weeks.
>
> But yet they do not always produce dependance in those who use them for ADHD?
>
> >Although these drugs are powerful stimulants and >increase a depressed person's activity, they may >also make him more anxious and agitated,
>
> So can wellbutrin for some, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good drug for some.
>
> >deprive him of sleep,
>
> Welcome to my life on SSRI's
>
>
> >and may fail to elevate his mood or to reverse >the fundamental depressive process.
>
> And we all know how effective SSRI's are at reverseing the fundimental depressive process.
>
> >In some individuals, these drugs have been >effective in relieving mild depression and >chronic fatigue, however
>
> Interesting sidenote.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>Hey,
I agree with everything you have said, i was surfing and came across that older study (when Amps were being tightened down on)and thought i'd throw it in for opion and converse.
yes-i have read on Remedyfind that Adderall, Dex, often rate highly in depression scores, and have saved a couple people reported from long term TRD, and while they MAY poop out, 2-3-5 years, althought many continue to use for years successfully, so do SSRIs
--"The activation of addiction genes intermediate early genes (ie cFOS, delta FosB) also varies from person to person. So one person might take a drug and crave it for months due to heavy activation of addiction genes, while another person does not."
Interesting, i think i'v read something on Coke and cFOS activation. I guess thats why we have our own DOC-drug of choice!
Posted by MIke Lynch on January 18, 2007, at 14:34:09
In reply to Re: If ADHD people are trusted, why mood disorder folk, posted by linkadge on January 13, 2007, at 19:33:28
> In fact, there is probably a higher rate of drug abuse in those with ADHD (for whatever reason that is).
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
I am quite sure that it is just the opposite, those treated with stimulants for adhd are less likely to abuse drugs. I think, of course depressed patients are more likely to abuse drugs, and stimulants are heavely abused - ssri's can't be abused for recreational purpose. Furthermore stimulants can cause depression after they where off
Posted by Phillipa on January 18, 2007, at 19:11:55
In reply to Re: If ADHD people are trusted, why mood disorder, posted by MIke Lynch on January 18, 2007, at 14:34:09
How or why would anyone even want to abuse an SSRI? Love Phillipa
Posted by kelv on January 18, 2007, at 19:55:43
In reply to Re: If ADHD people are trusted, why mood disorder, posted by MIke Lynch on January 18, 2007, at 14:34:09
>
> > In fact, there is probably a higher rate of drug abuse in those with ADHD (for whatever reason that is).
> >
> >
> > Linkadge
> >
> >
> "I am quite sure that it is just the opposite, those treated with stimulants for adhd are less likely to abuse drugs."Adreed MANY who are looking to feel comfortable in their own skin and are hyperactive, have high rates of Alcohol, Pot abuse, given successful stim treatment their drug cravings go down.
"I think, of course depressed patients are more likely to abuse drugs, and stimulants are heavely abused"
Depressed folk often drink, or use any form of self medication to feel better-Dexedrine, say, does that in a short time, and theres considerable 'pull' to continue doseing, to keep feeling good-using the stim as an AD.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 18, 2007, at 20:13:28
In reply to Re: Depressives' sensitivity to stimulants!, posted by linkadge on January 15, 2007, at 13:20:44
> they know most of their drugs are placebos.
Please don't exaggerate.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by kelv on January 18, 2007, at 20:53:37
In reply to Re: AMPHETAMINE-DEPRESSION STUDIES NOT ALWAYS CORR, posted by linkadge on January 17, 2007, at 16:33:47
First, Ritalin WAS an AD, as was Dexedrine. It is printed in the Archives of General Psychiatry that Dexedrine is "probably the basic antidepressant, and certainly the most documented".
Works for many for years-sans abuse.
Posted by MIke Lynch on January 18, 2007, at 22:38:43
In reply to Re: The basic AD?, posted by kelv on January 18, 2007, at 20:53:37
also I forgot to add, I'm pretty sure adderall triggered my depression. It caused obsessive thinking.
Posted by laima on January 19, 2007, at 8:59:52
In reply to Re: The basic AD?, posted by MIke Lynch on January 18, 2007, at 22:38:43
Has anyone had a different or better experience with dexedrine than with adderall? Dexedrine seems to have the strongest anti-depressing reputation, and is part of adderall- is it technically 1/4? 1/2? I wonder, what is the nature of the other so called amphetamine salts in adderall, and could they be what's causing the mood crashing problems? Adderall was designed to be primarily for ADD after all. Just wondering.
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 19, 2007, at 12:31:11
In reply to Re: The basic AD?, posted by laima on January 19, 2007, at 8:59:52
I had a slightly different reaction between adderall and dexedrine--chemically they are very, very similar. I suggest reading the wikipedia article on adderall for details...
(See my experience below this bit)
Adderall XR is comprised of* 1/4 Dextroamphetamine Saccharate
* 1/4 Dextroamphetamine Sulfate
* 1/4 dl-amphetamine Aspartate (racemic amphetamine)
* 1/4 dl-amphetamine Sulfate (racemic amphetamine)The four component salts are claimed to be metabolised at different rates.
The average elimination half-life for dextroamphetamine is 10 hours in adults, and for levoamphetamine, 13 hours.
...So, in terms of amphetamine, Adderall is 3/4 dextroamphetamine (dexedrine is all dextroamphetamine), mixed with 1/4 levoamphetamine, which has slightly different properties, but which is theorized to make it act more broadly, by varying the mechanism of action a bit. Levoamphetamine has the reputation of giving less psychological effect, with more physical (cardiac and respiratory) stimulation. But because it's a slightly different drug, it could enhance the effect of dexedrine. ...The dexamphetamine in adderall is also bonded to various other chemicals, so that (theoretically), it digests and hits the bloodstream more gradually, as the various molecules are digested at different rates. This is supposed to make it a smoother, and also longer acting drug--though it probably only extends the action by a little.
Some people seem to find that it is, indeed, a little better than dexedrine. My experience was that it acted the same as dexedrine, but caused more anxiety, and elevated my heart-rate more than dexedrine. Many people seem to have this response, and my impression is that, on the average, it is inferior for those reasons.
Also, adderall 10mg actually is not equivalent to dexedrine 10mg. Because of the extra weight of the bonded molecules in adderall, there is only about 6.75mg (or maybe it's 6.25?) amphetamine in 10mg adderall. So you need about 15mg adderall to get an equivalent dose to 10mg dexedrine.
Posted by linkadge on January 19, 2007, at 13:31:55
In reply to Re: please be civil » linkadge, posted by Dr. Bob on January 18, 2007, at 20:13:28
I appologize if I have offended anybody. I *feel* that antidepressants are mostly placebos but my opinion is of course not definitive.
Linkadge
Posted by laima on January 19, 2007, at 13:35:05
In reply to Re: dexedrine and adderall, posted by psychobot5000 on January 19, 2007, at 12:31:11
Thank you for your explanation. I did actually read the articles I could find on wikipedia, but I still had questions. And of course, wondered if there were other knowledgeable opinions. I tried dexedrine briefly last year for wakefulness/ADD, and it had a POTENT ant-depressent effect for me, but alas, after a few days I was intensely anxious. Right now I can't help but wonder if that's not thanks to using it at same time as welllbutrin. But in any case, I never got anything close to that boost from generic adderall, though I did get a decent enough mood boost from both generic and regular ritalin. But ritalin also had a way of making me hyper-focus, getting caught up obsessing with trivial details sometimes. However, the dexedrine mood boost was dramatic and like no other- also much a smoother drug than either version of ritalin, in my experience. So that's why I couldn't quite figure out why the generic adderall feels so inferior to the dexedrine moodwise, if there is a helping of the same chemical in it.You seem to be saying also that the brand name dexedrine is not quite the same chemically as generic dextroamphetamine. I also wonder how the saccharate and sulphate versions vary- just rate of absorption supposedly? Curious that I've seen some reports of people noticing that the brand adderall is salty, while a generic version is sweet. I wonder then if that particular generic has its proportions skewed? I can't fathom anyone thinking it would be a good idea to deliberately put sugar into a pill that is given to children, after all. In any case, it sounds like a lot of chemical variables by the time one is looking at adderall and its generic versions. I'm coming to the conclusion that brand vs regular does matter. Hmm. Lots to think about here.
> I had a slightly different reaction between adderall and dexedrine--chemically they are very, very similar. I suggest reading the wikipedia article on adderall for details...
>
> (See my experience below this bit)
> Adderall XR is comprised of
>
> * 1/4 Dextroamphetamine Saccharate
> * 1/4 Dextroamphetamine Sulfate
> * 1/4 dl-amphetamine Aspartate (racemic amphetamine)
> * 1/4 dl-amphetamine Sulfate (racemic amphetamine)
>
> The four component salts are claimed to be metabolised at different rates.
>
> The average elimination half-life for dextroamphetamine is 10 hours in adults, and for levoamphetamine, 13 hours.
>
> ...So, in terms of amphetamine, Adderall is 3/4 dextroamphetamine (dexedrine is all dextroamphetamine), mixed with 1/4 levoamphetamine, which has slightly different properties, but which is theorized to make it act more broadly, by varying the mechanism of action a bit. Levoamphetamine has the reputation of giving less psychological effect, with more physical (cardiac and respiratory) stimulation. But because it's a slightly different drug, it could enhance the effect of dexedrine. ...The dexamphetamine in adderall is also bonded to various other chemicals, so that (theoretically), it digests and hits the bloodstream more gradually, as the various molecules are digested at different rates. This is supposed to make it a smoother, and also longer acting drug--though it probably only extends the action by a little.
>
> Some people seem to find that it is, indeed, a little better than dexedrine. My experience was that it acted the same as dexedrine, but caused more anxiety, and elevated my heart-rate more than dexedrine. Many people seem to have this response, and my impression is that, on the average, it is inferior for those reasons.
>
> Also, adderall 10mg actually is not equivalent to dexedrine 10mg. Because of the extra weight of the bonded molecules in adderall, there is only about 6.75mg (or maybe it's 6.25?) amphetamine in 10mg adderall. So you need about 15mg adderall to get an equivalent dose to 10mg dexedrine.
Posted by linkadge on January 19, 2007, at 13:39:36
In reply to Re: ADD/HD more likely to abuse Stims- » MIke Lynch, posted by kelv on January 18, 2007, at 19:55:43
>I am quite sure that it is just the opposite, >those treated with stimulants for adhd are less >likely to abuse drugs."
It has been argued both ways. One side also argues that stimulant drugs are inducing drug seeking behavior by activating addiction genes in patients. Ritalin and dexedrine, in clinical doses can turn on genes that moderate the addiction process. These genes can remain activated for years after the drug has been discontinued.
Some argue that ex-ritalin users are more likely to abuse cocaine bacause when they use it they feel at home with the substance. That it is satisfying latent cravings induced by early stimulant treatment.
Mice treated with stimulants during adolecence also develop symptoms of depression and reward dysfunction for the remainder of their lives when the drugs are discontinued. These are otherwise normal mice treated with the drug so it is fair to conclude that long term use of the drug might set somebody up for depression.
This may also be a factor in why the disease now is continuing on into adulthood. Perhaps it needs to continue into adulthood because the brain does not function properly without the stimulants.
This is just what some researchers feel.
I don't know wheather the data indicates that stimulant treatment decreases addictive behaviors or not.
Linkadge
Posted by laima on January 19, 2007, at 13:54:40
In reply to Re: dexedrine and adderall » psychobot5000, posted by laima on January 19, 2007, at 13:35:05
Ok, I just licked one of my Barre brand generic "adderall" pills, and it indeed tastes very sugary. (So we have here bright blue amphetamine pills which taste like candy, and are given to children.) My info sheet from Walgreens lists the ingredients for this "d-amphetamine salt combo" as simply "dextroamphetamine and amphetamine". I am very curious now to go look around for some information from the Barre company to see what they say, but need to get back to work for awhile this afternoon first.
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 19, 2007, at 17:16:27
In reply to Re: dexedrine and adderall » psychobot5000, posted by laima on January 19, 2007, at 13:35:05
>
> You seem to be saying also that the brand name dexedrine is not quite the same chemically as generic dextroamphetamine.
>I did not mean to say this--just that adderall's dextroamphetamine elements are bonded to other things in order to vary their metabolism. As far as I know, generic and brand-name dexamphetamine should be essentially identical (though I have heard people dispute this on the internet). I can't imagine why they wouldn't be the same, though I have no particular knowledge about it. ...Some say the Malinckrodt dexamphetamine or the brand name are best...
Also, the amount of sugar in a pill the size of a dexamphetamine seems as though it would be insignificant. And the idea that you 'shouldn't give kids sugar' is largely unsupported, as far as I can tell. I'm -told- that excess sugar in the bloodstream is quickly cleared out...
Anyway. If you've found one of these stimulants that seems to work, then maybe that's the one to go with? Often, anxiety can be dealt with by lowering the dose? I find that my anxiety generally disappears after a few days taking dexedrine, but that's not the case for everyone, I guess.
Best of luck!
Anyway--
Posted by laima on January 19, 2007, at 19:29:34
In reply to Re: dexedrine and generic, etc » laima, posted by psychobot5000 on January 19, 2007, at 17:16:27
Thanks for further clarification. As for the sugar thing, I would think it odd if the pills were sweetened not because kids shouldn't have sugar, but because very young children already confuse pills and candy sometimes. But I know, that's a stretch, especially since one would hope their parents were holding the medication. Just found it curious is all. I personally do find it questionable that young children are ever given amphetamines in the first place, considering the dramatic effects they can have on mood, but that's just me and my amateur feelings, based on my own experience with the drugs as an adult, and on things I've read. Mostly I wonder if the sweetness might be evidence that the particular generic company could be skewing the proportions of the ingredients in their version of "adderall". What it would mean if they are now seems unclear.Anyway, so far I've not experienced any anxiety from adderall, and do wonder if the anxiety I felt with dexedrine might possibly have been from combining it with wellbutrin, which is also considered "stimulating". I thought, maybe too much stimulation? I sort of hope I might have a chance to re-try now that I'm not using any wellbutrin. Too much ritalin on the other hand, did give me a bit of choppy agitation.
> >
> > You seem to be saying also that the brand name dexedrine is not quite the same chemically as generic dextroamphetamine.
> >
>
> I did not mean to say this--just that adderall's dextroamphetamine elements are bonded to other things in order to vary their metabolism. As far as I know, generic and brand-name dexamphetamine should be essentially identical (though I have heard people dispute this on the internet). I can't imagine why they wouldn't be the same, though I have no particular knowledge about it. ...Some say the Malinckrodt dexamphetamine or the brand name are best...
>
> Also, the amount of sugar in a pill the size of a dexamphetamine seems as though it would be insignificant. And the idea that you 'shouldn't give kids sugar' is largely unsupported, as far as I can tell. I'm -told- that excess sugar in the bloodstream is quickly cleared out...
>
> Anyway. If you've found one of these stimulants that seems to work, then maybe that's the one to go with? Often, anxiety can be dealt with by lowering the dose? I find that my anxiety generally disappears after a few days taking dexedrine, but that's not the case for everyone, I guess.
>
> Best of luck!
>
> Anyway--
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 19, 2007, at 20:04:27
In reply to Re: dexedrine and generic, etc » psychobot5000, posted by laima on January 19, 2007, at 19:29:34
Ah, I see about the sugar concerns. It is a good point. Maybe the bitterness of the drug was suppose to outweight the sweetness? I think many medications are mixed with sugar in order to fill out the capsules or as a binder or things like that, since it's an almost inactive substance that everyone should be able to digest.
I would bet that wellbutrin would change things--it always made me irritable and anxious on its own.
P-bot
Posted by kelv on January 19, 2007, at 20:09:41
In reply to Re: ADD/HD more likely to abuse Stims-, posted by linkadge on January 19, 2007, at 13:39:36
> >I am quite sure that it is just the opposite, >those treated with stimulants for adhd are less >likely to abuse drugs."
>
> "It has been argued both ways. One side also argues that stimulant drugs are inducing drug seeking behavior by activating addiction genes in patients."I'v read this can happen to SOME people, while others take stims during childhood, adolescence, discontinue and don't go on to use drugs.
"Ritalin and dexedrine, in clinical doses can turn on genes that moderate the addiction process. These genes can remain activated for years after the drug has been discontinued."
SOME people may feed this early exposure to stim activated gene exposure, if similar drugs are around them while others don't.--from Remedyfind.com-Ritalin in ADD/HD.
Is Ritalin a Gateway Drug?
Interesting essay which argues that other factors are more likely to lead to future drug or alcohol abuse than childhood use of Ritalin.
> "Some argue that ex-ritalin users are more likely to abuse cocaine bacause when they use it they feel at home with the substance. That it is satisfying latent cravings induced by early stimulant treatment."SOME may if they have access to Coke and experiment with it.
>
> "Mice treated with stimulants during adolecence also develop symptoms of depression and reward dysfunction for the remainder of their lives when the drugs are discontinued. These are otherwise normal mice treated with the drug so it is fair to conclude that long term use of the drug might set somebody up for depression."If that person is prone to depression, and they have never fully recovered from stimulant use-found it allowed them to function better, mood and otherwise, yes.
>
> "This may also be a factor in why the disease now is continuing on into adulthood. Perhaps it needs to continue into adulthood because the brain does not function properly without the stimulants."There is evidence of exposure to a developing brain to stims may change it's functioning.
>
> This is just what some researchers feel.
>
> "I don't know wheather the data indicates that stimulant treatment decreases addictive behaviors or not."There are many reports on Remedyfind.com of folks who abused drugs/alcohol when younger, then being diagnosed and treated, drug and alcohol use/desire ceased.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 19, 2007, at 20:19:09
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by linkadge on January 19, 2007, at 13:31:55
Posted by kelv on January 19, 2007, at 20:23:41
In reply to Re: ADD/HD more likely to abuse Stims-, posted by linkadge on January 19, 2007, at 13:39:36
Remember, clinically established severly hyperactive people rendered dysfunctional, ie unable to hold a job, social activity dysfunction, will often become depressed/ill because of the mess of their lives, give up trying, and may turn to drugs/alcohol for relief.
SUCCESSFUL treatment can allow some to regain order in their lives, and give them a chance to have a life.
Posted by alohashirt on January 20, 2007, at 7:31:25
In reply to Re: dexedrine and adderall, posted by psychobot5000 on January 19, 2007, at 12:31:11
My experience was identical. 30mg of Aderall sent my heart racing and mhy BP 125/75 --> 150/140
Dexedrine had a smallere effect on my BP and less of teh heart racing, though after a while I tired of having to take a beta blocker to keep my BP down. Focalin XR (and Concerta) don't seem to affect my BP the same way though Ithink they are cognitively "duller."> I had a slightly different reaction between adderall and dexedrine--chemically they are very, very similar. I suggest reading the wikipedia article on adderall for details...
>
> (See my experience below this bit)
> Adderall XR is comprised of
>
> * 1/4 Dextroamphetamine Saccharate
> * 1/4 Dextroamphetamine Sulfate
> * 1/4 dl-amphetamine Aspartate (racemic amphetamine)
> * 1/4 dl-amphetamine Sulfate (racemic amphetamine)
>
> The four component salts are claimed to be metabolised at different rates.
>
> The average elimination half-life for dextroamphetamine is 10 hours in adults, and for levoamphetamine, 13 hours.
>
> ...So, in terms of amphetamine, Adderall is 3/4 dextroamphetamine (dexedrine is all dextroamphetamine), mixed with 1/4 levoamphetamine, which has slightly different properties, but which is theorized to make it act more broadly, by varying the mechanism of action a bit. Levoamphetamine has the reputation of giving less psychological effect, with more physical (cardiac and respiratory) stimulation. But because it's a slightly different drug, it could enhance the effect of dexedrine. ...The dexamphetamine in adderall is also bonded to various other chemicals, so that (theoretically), it digests and hits the bloodstream more gradually, as the various molecules are digested at different rates. This is supposed to make it a smoother, and also longer acting drug--though it probably only extends the action by a little.
>
> Some people seem to find that it is, indeed, a little better than dexedrine. My experience was that it acted the same as dexedrine, but caused more anxiety, and elevated my heart-rate more than dexedrine. Many people seem to have this response, and my impression is that, on the average, it is inferior for those reasons.
>
> Also, adderall 10mg actually is not equivalent to dexedrine 10mg. Because of the extra weight of the bonded molecules in adderall, there is only about 6.75mg (or maybe it's 6.25?) amphetamine in 10mg adderall. So you need about 15mg adderall to get an equivalent dose to 10mg dexedrine.
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
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