![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by KenB on October 31, 2000, at 0:24:19
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? - Yes, encore!, posted by dj on October 30, 2000, at 23:01:34
Stevens’ practice has apparently not focused on countering insanity pleas, but rather has occasionally included representation of clients at committal hearings. Stevens’ pamphlets seem to be written, in part, for trial attorneys defending people at committal hearings. The mission of attorneys is to zealously defend their clients. To restrict arguments in court to only that of the majority of any industry would not serve justice.
Many lawyers lack experience in the defense of clients at committal hearings, or at hearings to require forcible outpatient medication. Unprepared trial attorneys feed appellate courts. Cases that rise to the appellate level, after being bungled by inexperienced and uninformed lawyers, cost taxpayers money.
That Stevens takes time to produce and distribute uncopyrighted pamphlets reflects a commitment to civic service, and suggests that he enjoys some financial security. The pamphlets are available not only to defense attorneys, but also to states’ attorneys who wish to better prepare themselves for arguments they might encounter at a committal hearing. The availability of prepared arguments for use by attorneys in trial courts tends to resolve cases that would otherwise move on to appeals courts. Savvy argument at trial can offer appellate jurists an opportunity to address new controversies, rather than require them to rehash and correct persistent trial errors.
The downside of an adversarial legal system is that parties are encouraged to polarize their arguments, to the point of excluding the kind of information that otherwise can advance understanding of some matters.
Stevens’ pamphlets, and a list of attorneys who represent clients in psychiatric cases are posted at the Anti-Psychiatry Coalition's on-line reading room. http://www.anti-psychiatry.org. Stevens’ contact information and a license number that would identify his practice are not included at that site.
Further, concerning the University of Michigan nurses’ study, in reference to which Reg. A. Williams, a U-M associate professor of nursing said:
> > “Our findings reinforce the fact that depression is an illness and not a character flaw or a weakness.”
Weaknesses of short term memory or of attention cited in the study are weaknesses. The inability to think clearly would seem to undermine “character.”
William’s well-intended comment seems directed at those who would morally stigmatize sufferers of mental distress. The risk of separating “illness” from “character” in studies of the mind is that to do so suggests character flaws exist that are not illnesses. The argument says either there are no character flaws, or that there are character flaws that are not illnesses. That argument, in a legal forum, encourages individual responsibility, but in a social forum, tends to reduce pathological character traits to an individual moral trait. The stance tends to overlook systematic stressors that seem to consistently correlate with a high population of sociopathic character traits in many, especially urban, neighborhoods. The presumption of character flaws that are not illnesses might delay discovery of ways to prevent mental illness.
Posted by coral on October 31, 2000, at 4:11:30
In reply to Does Mental Illness Exist? Feedback Requested!, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 21:18:59
One point Stevens seems to be arguing is that mental disorders don't exist since there is not a corroborating biological cause. That's true for a good many illnesses. Examples include Lupus, MD, MS, rheumatoid arthritis, some cancers. We know WHAT happens, but not why. We know that some treatments work with some patients, other treatments work with other patients, some patients don't respond to any treatments and some patients spontaneously go into remission. Extrapolating, it seems that only diseases with bacterial, viral or external trauma as known could be classified as diseases.
Posted by pullmarine on October 31, 2000, at 22:59:48
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? Feedback Requested!, posted by Miguy on October 30, 2000, at 19:38:03
1. This guy must not have an overabudance of clients if he has the time to blather nonsensically for that long.
>REbuttal: a personal attack that has no impact on the validity of his arguments.
2. How many of you, when ill (whether a "real" illness or not) visit an attorney for answers?
We are not discussing whether psychiatrists can or do help people, but the validity of psychiatriac labels, and whether these labels are founded on fact, and If yes, is it beneficial to label people. Also, what are in the hands of psych's today were in the hands of clergy in days of yore, and they were the one's who guided and helped those who were going through existential or spiritual crises (i try hard to avoid using the word illness, since it is my belief that people go through cycles, just like the seasons and the economy). Unfortunatly, there are no double blind studies to evaluate who does a better job.
3. Does this man go to the doctor for legal advice?
Depends. An attorny may very well discuss the validity of the foundations of legal systems and their subsequent laws and consequences with anthropologists, sociologists, economists, socialists, laymen and many other groups.
4. Furthermore. I'm not saying he can't comment on the subject, but he ought to at least take a serious look at the consensus of the medical community at large. How arrogant to take a stand against something out of your field, having no evidence, when the vast majority of those *in* the field disagree!
Are you suggesting we make conclusions about our world via conscensus? Is that not somewhat medieval?
>
Furthermore, people are often not very critical of their own field of study. For instance, the people who brought an end segragation laws were not lawyers, law-makers or politicians, but laymen who did not need very much education to see the inconsistencies. Often people who are in their own field develop what is called 'myopia'. Hence, criticism from someone who is less familiar with the topic is oftem very enlightening.5. Sure he quoted some doctors. Big deal! They agreed with him!
>even if he had not quoted doctors, his arguments and doubts would still be valid, and fertile ground debate.
5.5 One who is truly logical, wise and honest will present all opposing views and refute them individually.
I have never seen this done, be it in science, politics, or marital arguments. Which leads me to conclude that no one is wise or honest.
6. It's true, there's a whole lot we don't know about the mind. We don't know a lot about the drugs that we use to treat it either, except that they seem to work. The search to determine how will bring greater understanding of the processes that bring the conditions in the first place, and perhaps aid us in their prevention.
>
Do they? there are quite a few flaws in the studies. At anyrate, the issue is not, are there persons with different temperaments and people who are in pain, but do the labels really have any significance, are they based on real facts or based on conscensus, and ultimately, is such labelling beneficial to patients? The feeling among many mental health care workers is that these labels cause a great deal more harm than good, both to the patients, and to the therapy, and this for quite a few reasons (doctors are less likely to listen to a patient's history, patients cling to labels and define their lives within that constraint, thereby reducing recovery.)7. I think I understand where he is coming from. I too have been frustrated with the "mental illness" or "temporary insanity" defense.
That is not the issue. Nowhere in his writing does he mention this.
8. We could argue ad nauseum about whether these are valid, but the fact is that a crime was committed. I want the criminal off the streets regardless of the specific mental processes involved.
>
Me too, depending on whether I hold that law to be just, the crime committed, whether there were extenuating circumstances, and the social and cultural norms in which the 'crime was committed.9. It's true that mental illness is often initiated and perpetuated by life events. But the illness that ensues is very real.
This argument is tautological and still does not answer the question we are debating, which is: does mental illness exist.
10. Since many heart attacks are instigated by severe stress, does that mean that heart disease is a man's denial of his stress problem?
Heart attacts, per se, are not considered to be an illnes. No more than high colesterol or obesity are illnesses. Do high collesterol and obesity impact one's health and well being? probably, but that does not make it an illness.
Then why is it when a life event such as divorce initiates panic attacks it is "all in my head"?
That's exactly what we're debating. My point is that these reactions are normal, though painfull (like a bruised arm), and that although they are not (in my opinion) illnesses, there are pills that can reduce the pain.
>
10. I think this guy wanted to write a paper, but didn't really want to take the time to understand the topic and give it a fair shake.I found him quite enlightning, helpful, and particularly knowledgeable.
(on a side note, I would like to add that I've met many many people in my life, and so far I have not met a single person that considered sane, but I have also never met anyone who I considered to be mentally ill.
john
Posted by Miguy on November 1, 2000, at 12:09:52
In reply to rebuttal to » Miguy, posted by pullmarine on October 31, 2000, at 22:59:48
Wow. I hesitate to even respond, because it seems logic doesn't work with you.
All I will say is that it's real easy to judge those who are different. It comes easy to many people to say that these conditions do not exist when they have not experienced them.
Re: illness. Ok, you pick a word. Malady. Affliction. Inconvenience. I don't care. But whatever a heart attack is, so is a panic attack. Whatever high blood pressure is, so is depression. You're right - they are symptoms. Partially due to environmental factors and partially due to biological factors. But they are very much real. If you choose not to believe this, fine. Debate with other 'healthy' people. But please don't express your views to people who need help.
Why is it so easy to forgive a nearsighted person for wearing glasses, or an arthritic for taking NSAIDS? These people are not accused of not dealing with their issue. Or what about a diabetic who takes insulin to make up for an inherent decifiency as contrasted with someone taking a medication to make up for a deficiency of serotonin, dopamine or norepinephrine?
These drugs are not 'uppers'. If a normal healthy person takes them they will not become giddy. It will likely have no effect (except for usual side-effects).
I used to think along the same lines you do. I used to think people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get over it. But that's just not reality. If our brain is so complicated that we barely understand it, then why is it so difficult to believe that it may become ill? I agree that many "mental illnesses" (use whatever word you prefer here) are used as crutches by people who could benefit by counseling, responsibility and by simply "growing up". I'm not talking about these cases. I'm talking about people who literally cannot get out of bed, or who find going to the market unimaginable because of their anxiety. I'm not pushing drugs, I'm pushing acceptance. Acceptance of the fact that their are hurting people who need help. It may require counseling, medication, therapy, .... who knows? (Probably not an attorney, though.)
Posted by pullmarine on November 1, 2000, at 14:39:57
In reply to Re: Back at ya, posted by Miguy on November 1, 2000, at 12:09:52
> All I will say is that it's real easy to judge those who are different. It comes easy to many people to say that these conditions do not exist when they have not experienced them.
>
The question is one of epistemilogy!!! Nowhere did I say that there is no pain, and nowhere did I say that people should not take medication to alleviate their pain.> Re: illness. Ok, you pick a word. Malady. Affliction. Inconvenience. I don't care. But whatever a heart attack is, so is a panic attack. Whatever high blood pressure is, so is depression. You're right - they are symptoms. Partially due to environmental factors and partially due to biological factors. But they are very much real. If you choose not to believe this, fine. Debate with other 'healthy' people. But please don't express your views to people who need help.
>I never said pain (mental, physical, or emotional)was not real. The question is, is pain an illness. Is a badly bruised arm or a broken bone an illness. I never said, 'don't get help for your emotional problems', a broken bone, though not an illness, does require tending.
> Why is it so easy to forgive a nearsighted person for wearing glasses, or an arthritic for taking NSAIDS? These people are not accused of not dealing with their issue. Or what about a diabetic who takes insulin to make up for an inherent decifiency as contrasted with someone taking a medication to make up for a deficiency of serotonin, dopamine or norepinephrine?
>
I do not judge, I take medications myself! However, I do question the labels, and the foundations on which they are based. It's a question of epistemology and liberal enquiry.
> These drugs are not 'uppers'. If a normal healthy person takes them they will not become giddy. It will likely have no effect (except for usual side-effects).
>I never said they were uppers. I never said they didn't help. I never said don't take pills. I merely raise questions about the validity of labels and the belief that normal cycles constitute an illness.
> I used to think along the same lines you do.Your writing indicates the contrary.
> I used to think people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get over it.
Contrary to you, I have never taken this position!
>If our brain is so complicated that we barely understand it, then why is it so difficult to believe that it may become ill?
I do not question certain illness (alzeimers, parkinsons, terciary syphillis)
>I agree that many "mental illnesses" (use whatever word you prefer here) are used as crutches by people who could benefit by counseling, responsibility and by simply "growing up".
> The words I would choose would be 'existential crises, emotional hardship, etc.
> I don't believe people use their difficulties as excuses, I think they are very real and need to be addressed.
I'm talking about people who literally cannot get out of bed, or who find going to the market unimaginable because of their anxiety. I'm not pushing drugs, I'm pushing acceptance. Acceptance of the fact that their are hurting people who need help. It may require counseling, medication, therapy, .... who knows? (Probably not an attorney, though.)
> I fully agree with this point, but this point still does not answer the question posed!
John
Posted by SLS on November 3, 2000, at 0:15:18
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? more Feedbak pleez » pullmarine, posted by pullmarine on November 2, 2000, at 22:01:44
I know this proves nothing, but I thought it might be interesting to see what the National Institutes of Health (NIH) has to say about the nature of depressive disorders as the result of decades of scientific investigation.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depresfact.cfm
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolarresfact.cfm
- Scott
Posted by Miguy on November 3, 2000, at 11:39:40
In reply to Re: Back at ya » Miguy, posted by pullmarine on November 1, 2000, at 14:39:57
Ok. So you're talking about semantics. The article seemed to me to take the position that the condition (whatever you call it) did not exist. I disagree with that.
If you want to Call it something other than an illness.... I don't know what I think about that. I agree that at times (many times?) these conditions very well could be called emotional crises or something of the sort. But when someone has a natural deficit of serotonin, norepineprhine or dopamine which requires pharmaceutical assistance, I don't see that any different from the person who has to supplement their insulin. Do you? So, if not an illness, what is it? It's certainly a medical condition due to a malfunction or shortcoming of an organ.
Like I said, it appears we may be quabbling over semantics. It sure sounded to me as if the article was speaking of more than semantics though. He seemed to be proposing that disorders of the brain do not exist.
I apologize for assuming that this was your point of view. I run into a lot of people who believe that. It's really not very rational to believe that every organ and system of the body *except the brain* may be diseased, malfunction or be out of balance.
Scott
Posted by pullmarine on November 3, 2000, at 19:54:06
In reply to Re: Back at ya, posted by Miguy on November 3, 2000, at 11:39:40
> Ok. So you're talking about semantics.
Nope, I'm taking primarily about epistemilogy!
>The article seemed to me to take the position that the condition (whatever you call it) did not exist.
>The article discusses some of the epistemological issues that underlie any science.
It does not claim that there are no variations in brain chemicals. It does not claim that these changes in levels do not affect mood or thought. It does not claim that psycho-emotional crises do not exist. It does not claim that people should not get the help or the medications they need in order to deal with their pains and troubles.
> If you want to Call it something other tha
n an illness.... I don't know what I think about that. I agree that at times (many times?) these conditions very well could be called emotional crises or something of the sort. But when someone has a natural deficit of serotonin, norepineprhine or dopamine which requires pharmaceutical assistance, I don't see that any different from the person who has to supplement their insulin. Do you?
Well, different people produce different amounts of insulin. some produce a lot, some less, and some none at all.So, if not an illness, what is it? It's certainly a medical condition due to a malfunction or shortcoming of an organ.
>
I'd call it a variation in temperament.> Like I said, it appears we may be quabbling over semantics. It sure sounded to me as if the article was speaking of more than semantics though. He seemed to be proposing that disorders of the brain do not exist.
IN some cases, neurological disorders are clearly organic and can be refered to as an illness . these imclude, but are not limitted to :tertiary syphilis, alzeimer's, parkinsons.
> I apologize for assuming that this was your point of view.
> Normally, ehen people apoligize, i reply: apologies are the foundations of future offenses, but in this case i say: thank you!
I run into a lot of people who believe that. It's really not very rational to believe that every organ and system of the body *except the brain* may be diseased, malfunction or be out of balance.
I think very few people would take this position. But I must add the the natural condition of things is not balance, but a constant strive for/towards balance.>
john
Posted by Mark H. on November 10, 2000, at 20:51:55
In reply to Does Mental Illness Exist? Feedback Requested!, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 21:18:59
"When [mental illness] involves violating the rights of others, nonconformity with social norms or values must be curbed or stopped with various measures, criminal law being one example."
(Quote from Stevens' "Does Mental Illness Exist?")
I've enjoyed reading everyone's contributions to this thread. The above excerpt is at the crux of this issue for me.
I believe that "Does mental illness exist?" is the wrong question, because it assumes there is a sweeping yes-or-no answer with far-reaching implications in both medicine and law.
The author cites familiar examples of cultural and personal differences being pathologized by psychiatry. To his list, I would add dissidents in the former Soviet Union who were declared "mentally ill" and imprisoned for disagreeing with the Communist Party line as a gross abuse of the label.
But in the other direction, the "mental illness doesn't exist" direction, there are countless equal abuses, especially now in the United States, where for economic reasons most of our publicly supported in-patient mental health facilities have been closed, and even floridly psychotic individuals are warehoused in prisons that rival the medieval "insane asylums" in their deprivation and total lack of care for people who are incapable of caring for themselves.
I think we need to ask, "Who asks the question, and why?" (I mean this rhetorically, pullmarine; I'm glad you raised the issue.)
One group, the Scientologists, are one of the most outspoken and adamantly anti-psychiatric organizations in the United States. Since they are also notoriously litigious, I won't speculate on their reasons, except to say that they offer a very expensive alternative that would benefit greatly if psychiatry and psychopharmacology were banned. Follow the money.
Likewise, pharmaceutical companies have an enormous interest in promoting the use of their products, which necessarily includes finding the maximum number of conditions for which a medicine can be used (lucky for them if an anti-depressant helps people stop smoking and also reduces chronic pain, for instance). Again, just follow the money.
The war on drugs is a multi-billion dollar a year industry in itself. Criminalization of self-medication, especially by politically less powerful minorities, is big business by any standard. Why is law enforcement so universally reluctant to adopt a medical model of addiction and drug abuse? Again, follow the money. If forfeiture revenues make up 10% to 30% of your department budget, would you be for or against continuing to define drug use as criminal?
There is a man, a truly evil man in my opinion, who testifies in court cases all over the country, who has never met a murderer who he could not convincingly prove to a jury was "legally sane." It's just a job for him -- a very well paid job -- to misuse logic so that frightened juries can send lunatics to prison on a technicality. Even the former head of the FBI's Behavioral Sciences Division believes this man has gone too far on some occasions.
Historically, the lower classes self-medicated with street drugs. The upper class expected their doctors to make them feel well, regardless of the cause. For those of us who are middle-aged, we can well remember that not that long ago the vast middle class was expected to "suck it up" and go to work, well or ill, and to go through life mostly untreated for mental and emotional ailments.
That has changed -- there are millions of us who refuse to use illegal drugs, who have given up alcohol and even caffeine abuse, but don't think we should suffer without treatment just because we aren't rich or poor. In time, some of our notions will prove folly, while others will be accepted as "it was about time you guys figured out how to get some help for that."
In the end, it doesn't matter whether mental illness exists or not, as long as individuals are free to experiment with improving their lives in a private, secure and legal relationship with their doctors, and with the reasonable assurance that their treatment will be respected and covered as it is for any other "complaint." For now, that freedom is best respected by retaining a fairly broad definition of mental illness.
Just within the last couple of weeks in the Times, there were articles on new gene research showing multiple links with specific chromosomes for schizophrenia. Thank heavens!
All of the psychoses are profoundly disabling. When such disability exists, the question becomes whether to treat people who have them as ill and therefore deserving of compassionate care or as criminals to be locked away in concrete cubicles, forgotten and unmedicated. Since in our hard and cruel times this question has been increasingly answered in economic terms, it is good to note that finally people are beginning to notice that we cannot afford our prisons either, and that perhaps a more humane approach doesn't have to cost any more.
Thanks for reading my thoughts,
Mark H.
Posted by pullmarine on November 11, 2000, at 9:49:17
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? Why Do We Ask?, posted by Mark H. on November 10, 2000, at 20:51:55
Hi mark,
You're very eloquent, and u argue well, and I agree with all of your points 100%. The problems I have with the labels of mental illness are:
1. that they are abused (BDS, PTSD, etc). Be real, normal reactions to stress or life events are being treated as illnesses for reasons of profit. NOt that these people should not be given compassion, understanding and treatment (pharmaceutical or other);
2. once a person accepts a label, it's very hard to get them to give it up. This holds true for psychiatric labels or any other;
3. Mental illness implies that a person is incapable of rational thought and rational decision making; this can be used as an excuse to make decisions on behalf of a person, both regarding medical care and financial. In my case, one family member was considering getting control over my financial assets. At another point, I was medicated without my knowledge and consent, eventhough I was not dangerous to myself or others.
Most TRuly,
JOHN
Posted by Kaarina on November 11, 2000, at 13:35:41
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? Why Do We Ask?, posted by Mark H. on November 10, 2000, at 20:51:55
I haven't read the whole thread, because I've lived with a parent who has an illness, schizophrenia. I remember what life was like before the illness took. He still has the same personality, values - humour etc. Yet the illness has affected his functioning.
I do not doubt that some people do have a hard time functioning due to how they view the world, and for them this causes psychological pain. Yet to diagnose them as having an illness is counterproductive and not helpful to these individuals.
> Just within the last couple of weeks in the Times, there were articles on new gene research showing multiple links with specific chromosomes for schizophrenia. Thank heavens!
>
> All of the psychoses are profoundly disabling. When such disability exists, the question becomes whether to treat people who have them as ill and therefore deserving of compassionate care or as criminals to be locked away in concrete cubicles, forgotten and unmedicated.
Posted by Mark H. on November 14, 2000, at 17:35:12
In reply to Re: Mark's comments, posted by Kaarina on November 11, 2000, at 13:35:41
Dear John and Kaarina,
Thank you for your comments, which offered me additional perspective. I've accepted the label of "mental illness" without stigma, so I forget how it was for me in the beginning, when I paid my psychiatrist in cash to avoid leaving a paper trail! I can laugh at myself now, but I do remember how scared I felt at the time that someone would find out I was having "mental difficulties."
There should be no more "shame" or stigma attached to mental illness than there is to having the flu or needing an operation. However, I realize that insurance companies, Congress and the general public have not yet reached that level of acceptance.
Not too many centuries ago, people were persecuted for any form of mental illness, for birth defects, for epilepsy, for all sorts of conditions over which they had no power or choice.
The idea of allowing that these differences were illnesses rather than moral defects, character weaknesses, or evidence of possession by evil spirits, was relatively enlightened. I still hold to the compassion implied by labeling those experiences "illnesses" rather than some sort of personal flaw.
Insurance companies and Congress, in particular, will only be swayed when enough people overcome their embarrassment of talking about "mental illness" as an ordinary thing, and insist that it be treated no differently than any other disease, ailment or complaint.
We still see otherwise educated people on television refer to schizophrenia as having a split or "double" personality -- such basic ignorance! We still see people making the foolish assumption that being "mentally ill" means that one is automatically incompetent.
Thank you again for your comments, which are good reminders that daily hundreds of thousands of people with mental illnesses suffer unnecessary additional problems because of ignorance and stereotypes.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by RH on November 9, 2004, at 18:27:33
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? - Yes, encore!, posted by dj on October 30, 2000, at 23:01:34
This study (below), cited by a member of this discussion board who believes that mental illness does exist, actually proves very little if anything, except that it shows how constrained thinking allows individuals to form conclusions that they "beleive" to be based on the evidence, when in fact they are not.The nature of the discussion in the article referenced betrays the constrained thinking. Here's the problem: No mention is given as to the exact series of events that lead to depressed type inattention. Someone reading the article from another galaxy would be led to beleive that the depressed persons mind is intermittantly turning on and off, literally going from thought to non-thought, while the "normal" persons mind is always on.
(It is almost impossible to turn off thinking. It is the goal of Zen meditation to acheive this state. Few Zen practitioners actually achieve this, (if they can do it with regualirty they are a Zen master) although the striving in Zen for such levels of mind control seems to be very beneficial to it's practitioners)
No mention is made of what we actually know, namely that the depressed person's mind is spinning, devoting most of it's processing time to things in the category of worry, self-doubt and resentment. These are psychodynamic issues.
The various anti-depressants achieve their effects of relieving symptoms by retarding spinning thoughts. Then the mind has more processing time to devote to will directed tasks, which usually are tasks performed in compliance with someone else's will (like your boss, or your annoying spouse, or your domineering manipulative mother, or some aspect of the capital/industiral system that values you only for your labor and directed attention)
Just because a neurotoxin can retard some negative thoughts, in no way does that suggest a cure. The causes of the doubt, worry and resentment are still "in there". Your pleasure seeking and pain avoidance are still operating to help generate confusion in your mind. All the literature, philosphy and art of the world has not been automatically instilled in you with your favortie psychotropic, which is not unlike marijuana or heroin. If you were an ignorant fool before you saw a pdoc, you are still one after you start your prescription.
So by the non-inclusion of the psychodynamics of the situation in the referenced article, we can conclude some kind of hidden agenda, as all deception has a hidden agenda. The hidden agenda may also be hidden from the researchers themsleves, especially if they don't question the validity of the capitalist/industrialist organization of society, and also if they are enjoying a certain amount of pleausres by their participation in the "system". (Yes, people are not all that more complex than lab rats, ask any advertising exec)
In fact, note the choice of balancing a checkbook as a "theme" of the research. Do I need to elaborate?
Then there is the ubiquitous claim that mental illness is not a character flaw, or weakness. In fact, the article claims to prove that statement, when in fact it did no such thing. For instance, no definition of character or strength was given, which would have to be established in order to show that something was or was not flawed or weak.
An objective view shows that what some call "mental illness" is a weakness of the mind - just as diabetes is a weakness of the pancreas. The word "weak" has to do with power, and with will. So to even begin to understand the concept of "weakness" one has to underestand power and will. I can't take the time now to explain these things.
But here's an example that may help: In a power hierarchy, like Western society, individuals and organizations are constantly vying with each other, to take things from each other, and to get others to do things for them. When you can't balance your checkbook, you will likely have NSF charges imposed by your bank when a check bounces. In that case, your bank has taken something from you. The amount they collect on an NSF does not just cover their expenses for handling your bad check, it also includes a profit. Thus, you lost the tug of war because you were weak. Does anyone really think that biologic psychiatry will ever convince the banking industry to refund such charges because you had a chemical imbalance? (Of course, some of you will fantsize that his may one day come to pass. Fantasy is another sign of weakness)
As far as the term "character flaw" goes, well, that is a value judgement. There is no ablsolute definition of "character". Thus, anyone who applies the phrase "character flaw" to another is niether right, nor wrong, excpet within that person's own context. If you need that person, or they exert some control over your life, then the label sticks to you. If you are independent of that person, the label bounces off.
Note that much of the money that pays for anti-depressants and mood stabilizers comes from the insurance companies and government. It is money that is redistributed from the general population to the "mentally ill". All those who "like" these drugs, including psychiatrists, will see this as morally correct. But this is simply "Slave morality", as in the final analysis all morality is concerned with power, actually Will To Power. You think it is "morally correct" that you should ("should" is a guilt word) get your various drugs, and that others should pay for them. Of course you think that , because it is self-serving. (The psychiatrists like you on these drugs as well, becuase then you are not so intolerable to be around.) "Slave morality" descibes how a group posits good and evil to serve their own needs/desires. To understand this, read Friedrich Nietzsche's "Geneolgy of Morals" and "Human, All Too Human" and his unfinished work "Will To Power".
I have yet to meet anyone who has been "cured" by their psychotropic drugs. They continue to struggle, and become dependant on the drugs. Those of you who are in such a condition are "the weak", by definition. You are easier to take advantage of by those with the will to do so. For instance, it is easier to induce most of you to consume more sugar, fats and alcohol. You will buy something to make yourselves feel better - why shouldn't you treat yourself, after all? Many of you have debt problems. Thus you are parted from your money and you recieve nothing of value in return. See how it works? Now, on the count of three, Wake up. One...two...
> July 27, 2000 (35)
> Nursing study: depression inhibits memory, concentration
>
> ANN ARBOR---New research by a team of researchers from the University of Michigan School of Nursing confirms what health-care professionals suspected about depression: it inhibits short-term memory and directed attention, or concentration.
>
> Up until now, researchers who study depression, and therapists and physicians who treat people with depression, did not have a sensitive measure to assess the subtle changes in memory or attention in the early stages of depression in patients. Yet patients regularly complain of having memory problems and having difficulty concentrating. U-M researchers were interested in learning more about memory and attention impairments in depressed patients. When do the symptoms strike? What are the early signs?
>
> "Prior to this study, my colleague Bonnie Hagerty and I conducted a study that examined the early signs of depression. We were struck by the number of people who said that one of their earliest symptoms was lack of concentration. One of the clients said that she knew she was getting into trouble with another episode of depression when she began to make a lot of errors in her checkbook," said Reg. A. Williams, a U-M associate professor of nursing who is senior author of the study that appears in the May issue of the Journal of Psychiatric Research. The study is co-authored by Hagerty, a U-M associate professor of nursing who specializes in depression.
>
> The research is based on a series of computer-based and written tests. The tests measured directed attention---which is the ability to focus on the task at hand---and short-term memory, the ability to recall an event that happened within two minutes.
>
> The researchers studied 52 people over a 10-week period. There were 25 people in the group diagnosed with depression and 27 in a comparison group of people without depression. They took five written tests and six computerized tests that were given three times over the course of the study.
>
> Of the 25 in the depressed group, 12 were receiving drug therapy and counseling, while 13 managed their symptoms by relying on self-administered stress reduction techniques, such as yoga or an herbal remedy.
>
> Some of the test results clearly showed memory and attention impairments.
>
> In a computer-based test that measured ability to balance a checkbook, 67 percent of the depression group made errors at the start of the study compared with 48 percent in the comparison group. By the end of the study, both groups made the same number of errors, which, Williams said, clearly indicated progress.
>
> All test scores for those in the depression group improved over time, which Williams attributes to the lifting of depression under drug therapy and counseling. However, he also noted that depressed clients worked harder to compensate for memory and attention impairments. Their desire to succeed---even under the cloud of depression---didn't affect their desire to perform well.
>
> In scientific terms, having difficulty with short-term memory and concentration are often considered prodromal signs of depression, or early signs of depression. The symptoms can suddenly creep up on people, most of whom don't recognize them as precursors of depression.
>
> "Our findings reinforce the fact that depression is an illness and not a character flaw or a weakness. It affects your ability to think. When you suffer from depression, people think it just affects your mood. Our study clearly shows it does more than that: It affects your cognitive ability," said Williams.
>
> The study was funded by the U-M's Center for Enhancement and Restoration of Cognitive Function and the U-M School of Nursing.
>
> Other co-authors include:
>
> Bernadine Cimprich, Ph.D., R.N., associate professor of nursing who specializes in directed attention.
>
> Barbara Therrien, Ph.D., R.N., associate professor of nursing specializing in neuroscience.
>
> Research assistants Esther Bay, M.S.N., R.N., and Hiroaki Oe, M.S.
>
>
>
Posted by saw on November 10, 2004, at 3:37:33
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? - Not Really, posted by RH on November 9, 2004, at 18:27:33
<<I have yet to meet anyone who has been "cured" by their psychotropic drugs. They continue to struggle, and become dependant on the drugs. Those of you who are in such a condition are "the weak", by definition. You are easier to take advantage of by those with the will to do so. For instance, it is easier to induce most of you to consume more sugar, fats and alcohol. You will buy something to make yourselves feel better - why shouldn't you treat yourself, after all? Many of you have debt problems. Thus you are parted from your money and you recieve nothing of value in return. See how it works? Now, on the count of three, Wake up. One...two...>>
I do not appreciate an insinuation that because I have a mental condition (that does *not really* exist?) that I am weak. I do not appreciate that I might be labelled as a weakling because I consume a little more sugar, or whatever, or take drugs because I am searching for relief from a very crippling condition.
I have received a lot of value for my money. The fact that I am still alive is testament to that.
I will NOT be led to believe that I am weak, I have an illness and many of my weaknesses are part of that illness. But they are MINE. For once, I am proud to be weak!!
Oh, and I am WIDE AWAKE!
Sabrina
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 10, 2004, at 8:07:28
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? - Not Really, posted by RH on November 9, 2004, at 18:27:33
> Those of you who are in such a condition are "the weak", by definition.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down. The last time you were blocked it was for 1 week, so this time it's for 3.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by KaraS on November 10, 2004, at 14:13:38
In reply to DISBELIEF!!!!!!!!!, posted by saw on November 10, 2004, at 3:37:33
> <<I have yet to meet anyone who has been "cured" by their psychotropic drugs. They continue to struggle, and become dependant on the drugs. Those of you who are in such a condition are "the weak", by definition. You are easier to take advantage of by those with the will to do so. For instance, it is easier to induce most of you to consume more sugar, fats and alcohol. You will buy something to make yourselves feel better - why shouldn't you treat yourself, after all? Many of you have debt problems. Thus you are parted from your money and you recieve nothing of value in return. See how it works? Now, on the count of three, Wake up. One...two...>>
>
> I do not appreciate an insinuation that because I have a mental condition (that does *not really* exist?) that I am weak. I do not appreciate that I might be labelled as a weakling because I consume a little more sugar, or whatever, or take drugs because I am searching for relief from a very crippling condition.
>
> I have received a lot of value for my money. The fact that I am still alive is testament to that.
>
> I will NOT be led to believe that I am weak, I have an illness and many of my weaknesses are part of that illness. But they are MINE. For once, I am proud to be weak!!
>
> Oh, and I am WIDE AWAKE!
>
> Sabrina
>
>YOU GO GIRL!
Posted by mindevolution on January 16, 2007, at 3:56:12
In reply to Does Mental Illness Exist? Feedback Requested!, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 21:18:59
well interesting question, and although I have read the "it doesn't exist perspective", it is difficult when a person presents saying that the voices are stopping them from working and enjoying themselves to deny they are not suffering from some sort of affliction. likewise it is difficult to believe the diagnosis of a temperamental teenager as psychotic/schizophrenic when they are just going through an antiauthoritarian stage, or maybe just doesn't get on with his/her parents, indeed nobody gets on with everybody, and one can't choose one's parents. finally anyone who has had a nervous breakdown due to series of stressful events such as a partner dying or losing a job suffers greatly from their predicament.
so I propose that it may well exist in three forms, 1. as yet undiagnosible biological diseases e.g. in the early 1900s encephalitus lethargica produced symptoms that was diagnosed as schizophrenia until the virus causing it was identified, 2. illnes from a psychological cause, 3. illness from drug abuse be it illegal or prescription.
however once you apply the concept of mental illness within the context of society, the establishment, the medical fraternity, government, and the law the question takes on a whole new dimension. which is why some people prefer, taking into account the operation of these competeting perspectives power and influence, to deny the existence of it in the first place. although i myself find it limiting to deny not the illnesses which are invented by psychiatrist and voted on every year, but the suffering of an individual, not to be confused with diagnosing suffering in an individual for alterior reasons.
Posted by FredPotter on January 16, 2007, at 18:25:48
In reply to Does Mental Illness Exist? Feedback Requested!, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 21:18:59
It would be strange if the brain was the only organ in the body incapable of malfunctioning
Posted by shadowplayers721 on January 16, 2007, at 19:42:44
In reply to Does Mental Illness Exist? Feedback Requested!, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 21:18:59
Posted by FredPotter on January 16, 2007, at 21:21:55
In reply to My family would be the exhibits to close the issue (nm), posted by shadowplayers721 on January 16, 2007, at 19:42:44
We can narrow the issue down to asking the question, "Why is Parkinson's Disease an illness but not depression?". Answer: "because we can see it". Some other conditions are never challenged eg headaches because we've all experienced them. So it comes down to prejudice. "If what you say you've got is visible or audible or feels like something we've experienced then we'll believe you. Otherwise we'll go on and on doubting its existence and write books about it(The Myth of Mental Illness by Thomas Szasz and The Myth of Neurosis by Garth somebody) and form crazy societies based upon our doubts like PNP (the People not psychiatry movement of the 60s or 70s)"
Fred
Posted by mindevolution on January 17, 2007, at 1:26:07
In reply to Re: My family would be the exhibits to close the issue, posted by FredPotter on January 16, 2007, at 21:21:55
> Otherwise we'll go on and on doubting its existence and write books about it(The Myth of Mental Illness by Thomas Szasz and The Myth of Neurosis by Garth somebody) and form crazy societies based upon our doubts like PNP (the People not psychiatry movement of the 60s or 70s)"
> Fredone has to ask the question: why would you doubt the existence of an illness when we know that many people experience suffering from it? and in this case you have to suggest that there may be ramifications on the concept of a free society. if we can diagnose anyone with a mental illness at anytime for any reason and hold them against their will and treat them with high doses of drugs or ect that maim and kill on the say so of one doctor without a proper trial, how free is anyone in such a society? does the existence of mental illness render the concept of freedom defunct, merely an illusion that fleetingly disappears in a fraction of an instant? in this case the concept of mental illness makes a potential slave or murderee out of each and every member of society. in this case to argue that mental illness does not exist means to argue for the liberation of society itself does it not? so arguing that mental illness does not exist although on the surface seems foolish, isn't it potentially at a deeper level quite the inverse?
Posted by leo33 on January 19, 2007, at 17:43:40
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? Feedback Requested! » pullmarine, posted by FredPotter on January 16, 2007, at 18:25:48
Yes, I am living proof of that, there are biological, enviromental, and financial factors that contribute to the disease. It is amazing that since people who have never suffered it, question it. The brain is still misunderstood and complex. To just say it doesn't exist because they can't figure it out is shortsighted. It is easy to blame the individual for the invisible disease. Does diabetes exist, hight blood pressure, demetia, alzheimers? Law does not understand mental illness as it only looks at behavior, but mental illness effects behavior.
My question might be, does crime really exist? Since in one place something may be a crime and in another it might not.
But I do understand the argument put forth in that article. Personally I think most of the psychiatrists that were quoted in it should have their license pulled since they admit they have been committing fraud in treating something they say does not exist.
Posted by leo33 on January 19, 2007, at 18:02:10
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? Feedback Requested!, posted by leo33 on January 19, 2007, at 17:43:40
I believe most people suffer from some type of mental illness, but if they feel they don't have one then they don't. The most aggressive and unconsciencious seem to do best in America. That's a generalized statement I know but it seems that way.
Posted by mindevolution on January 23, 2007, at 17:32:19
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? Feedback Requested!, posted by leo33 on January 19, 2007, at 17:43:40
>To just say it doesn't exist because they can't figure it out is shortsighted.
They are not saying it doesn't exist, just that they cannot diagnose it scientifically nor cure it.
what's worse is when a healthy individual is told they have a mental disease, even if they are not enduring any suffering. the disease he is told he has is voted on every year and so is fictional and could even be removed the following year, there are no medical tests to confirm his disease exists, he feels fine, and yet he has his freedom removed and he is treated with high doses of drugs or ect or surgery which maims or potentially even kills him without being offered less damaging alternatives.
why? usually it is because "he is a danger to society". how? he is healthy individual free from suffering who has committed no crime. does he get a fair trial, where he is presumed sane and evidence has to be brought to prove his illness? no. are there safeguards in the current system to stop an innocent sane person from being unnecessarily held and treated against their will? no. are there any effective limits on how long any person can be held and treated? no.
in this case it is the job of a psychiatrist to take away an innocent man's freedom and subject him to brain damaging treatments, effectively acting as jailer, torturer or sometimes even executioner, on behalf and the say so of one or maybe two other members of the public who only have to provide verbal evidence which in itself could be complete fabrication.
how many innocent people have been maimed or killed by a system that has been in existence for centuries, and has accelerated considerably since the introduction of the antipsychotics and other mental health medications? the rates of people diagnosed mentally ill has grown exponentially inline with the growth of DSM illnesses invented especially since the 1950s. Could it be worse than the holocaust?
Do you think that the existence of mental illness in the context of the current legal/medical structure corrupts the concept of an individual's right to freedom/life that is supposedly the basis of a democratic society?
on the other hand, if we deny the existence of mental illness, many people's potentially life threatening suffering would be invalidated and left untreated.
I prefer not to argue against the concept of mental illness, but to argue for reform to the current implementation of the mental health care system so that people suffering with mental illness are not denied treatment and care, and innocent healthy people accused of illness by other members of the population are not incarcerated, tortured or killed needlessly. In the same way that we developed a just system for dealing with people accused of criminal acts, so too we need a medically sound and just system capable of dealing with people accused of having mental illness.
> Does diabetes exist, hight blood pressure, demetia, alzheimers?without doubt, but these conditions do not corrupt an individual's right to freedom or indeed life itself.
> Law does not understand mental illness as it only looks at behavior, but mental illness effects behavior.
Medical science does not understand mental illness either.
> But I do understand the argument put forth in that article.
glad to hear it, but do you really?
>Personally I think most of the psychiatrists that were quoted in it should have their license pulled since they admit they have been committing fraud in treating something they say does not exist.
they didn't say it didn't exist, but indicated its cause and cure were unknown to medical science:
"We really do not know what causes any psychiatric illness" Columbia University psychiatry professor Jack M. Gorman, M.D.
"It is generally unrecognized that psychiatrists are the only medical specialists who treat disorders that, by definition, have no definitively known causes or cures." Jerrold S. Maxmen, M.D
it would be untrue to suggest that we know the causes and cures for mental illness; any doctors that suggest otherwise should have their licences revoked. psychiatric medicine and treatment cannot cure, only potentially relieve suffering. the entire medical speciality of psychiatry is no more able to cure its patients than a cold remedy can cure your cold. to suggest otherwise is medical and scientific fraud. psychiatry will always be this way unless it gets redefined.
So we know that psychiatric medicine's only use is to potentially mask the symptoms of someone suffering from mental illness. So what happens if a person is not suffering? if an individual is not suffering, and that is a subjective thing known only to the individual concerned as it cannot be identified objectively, then the application of any treatment in such a circumstance is fraudulent in nature. how can treatment only capable of masking the suffering of an individual, mask suffering not being experienced by the individual?
that said it happens to millions upon millions of patients against their will everyday all over the globe. it is the most widespread fraudulent application of medicine known to man. worse still is the treatments are known to be second only to cancer treatments in toxicity and cause significant brain damage, reduce life expectancy, and death.
me
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 26, 2007, at 23:12:53
In reply to Re: Does Mental Illness Exist? Feedback Requested!, posted by mindevolution on January 23, 2007, at 17:32:19
> I prefer not to argue against the concept of mental illness, but to argue for reform to the current implementation of the mental health care system
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding reform to the mental health care system to Psycho-Babble Politics. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20061123/msgs/726938.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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