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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 53 to 77 of 77. Go back in thread:
Posted by DavidH44 on January 9, 2006, at 10:51:58
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression, posted by andrewb on November 28, 1999, at 11:57:35
I took aminemptine (Survector) for several years in Chile in the 1990's and it worked great. If it is still available in Brazil (where I visit) or anywhere else I'd love to know. (Don't worry, I won't import it . . .)
I did some research when it was withdrawn, supposedly for abuse, but all the studies I found showed low abuse statistics -- and it was the most widely prescribed out-patient med in Europe for many years. The head chemist at the Chile firm that produced it under license said it had been withdrawn only because the French patent holder had a new drug (Stablon, tianeptine) that they expected to be more profitable.
I have not tried Stablon. As to its action, the chemist told me that they believed its mechanism was that REDUCING serotonin caused the brain to INCREASE dopamine, therefore producing an effect similar to Survector by a different method.
When I returned to the US no one knew about either drug so I tried Welbutrin since it was the only anti-depressant with a dopamine enhancer, and it was terrible for me: I had seriously uncontrollable episodes of rage that lasted for months even after I stopped taking the drug. Scared the hell out of me and my family.
I've tried a variety of things since then, and what seems to work best is something the docs say shouldn't work at all: a combination of low doses of zoloft and celexa, with amantadine (a dopamine enhancer prescribed for Parkinsons)
Just shows: people are different, and what works for one doesn't work for another. Psychiatric pharmacology is mostly flying blind, trial and error, not customized to the individual. Where's Timothy Leary when we really need him?
Good luck to all.
Posted by liliths on June 19, 2006, at 15:32:56
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression, posted by DavidH44 on January 9, 2006, at 10:51:58
does anyone have any current information about Tianeptine?
I notice this is from a very old thread. Anyone taking it now?
thanks,
lilith> I took aminemptine (Survector) for several years in Chile in the 1990's and it worked great. If it is still available in Brazil (where I visit) or anywhere else I'd love to know. (Don't worry, I won't import it . . .)
>
> I did some research when it was withdrawn, supposedly for abuse, but all the studies I found showed low abuse statistics -- and it was the most widely prescribed out-patient med in Europe for many years. The head chemist at the Chile firm that produced it under license said it had been withdrawn only because the French patent holder had a new drug (Stablon, tianeptine) that they expected to be more profitable.
>
> I have not tried Stablon. As to its action, the chemist told me that they believed its mechanism was that REDUCING serotonin caused the brain to INCREASE dopamine, therefore producing an effect similar to Survector by a different method.
>
> When I returned to the US no one knew about either drug so I tried Welbutrin since it was the only anti-depressant with a dopamine enhancer, and it was terrible for me: I had seriously uncontrollable episodes of rage that lasted for months even after I stopped taking the drug. Scared the hell out of me and my family.
>
> I've tried a variety of things since then, and what seems to work best is something the docs say shouldn't work at all: a combination of low doses of zoloft and celexa, with amantadine (a dopamine enhancer prescribed for Parkinsons)
>
> Just shows: people are different, and what works for one doesn't work for another. Psychiatric pharmacology is mostly flying blind, trial and error, not customized to the individual. Where's Timothy Leary when we really need him?
>
> Good luck to all.
Posted by sukarno on January 14, 2007, at 9:30:04
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression » DavidH44, posted by liliths on June 19, 2006, at 15:32:56
I've been on tianeptine for almost two years. Here are some websites that describe it in much more detail:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine
Hope this helps! :-)
> does anyone have any current information about Tianeptine?
>
> I notice this is from a very old thread. Anyone taking it now?
>
> thanks,
> lilith
>
> > I took aminemptine (Survector) for several years in Chile in the 1990's and it worked great. If it is still available in Brazil (where I visit) or anywhere else I'd love to know. (Don't worry, I won't import it . . .)
> >
> > I did some research when it was withdrawn, supposedly for abuse, but all the studies I found showed low abuse statistics -- and it was the most widely prescribed out-patient med in Europe for many years. The head chemist at the Chile firm that produced it under license said it had been withdrawn only because the French patent holder had a new drug (Stablon, tianeptine) that they expected to be more profitable.
> >
> > I have not tried Stablon. As to its action, the chemist told me that they believed its mechanism was that REDUCING serotonin caused the brain to INCREASE dopamine, therefore producing an effect similar to Survector by a different method.
> >
> > When I returned to the US no one knew about either drug so I tried Welbutrin since it was the only anti-depressant with a dopamine enhancer, and it was terrible for me: I had seriously uncontrollable episodes of rage that lasted for months even after I stopped taking the drug. Scared the hell out of me and my family.
> >
> > I've tried a variety of things since then, and what seems to work best is something the docs say shouldn't work at all: a combination of low doses of zoloft and celexa, with amantadine (a dopamine enhancer prescribed for Parkinsons)
> >
> > Just shows: people are different, and what works for one doesn't work for another. Psychiatric pharmacology is mostly flying blind, trial and error, not customized to the individual. Where's Timothy Leary when we really need him?
> >
> > Good luck to all.
>
>
Posted by liliths on January 14, 2007, at 10:44:42
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression, posted by sukarno on January 14, 2007, at 9:30:04
Posted by liliths on January 14, 2007, at 13:08:34
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression, posted by sukarno on January 14, 2007, at 9:30:04
hi again
would you mind telling me dose you've been on and whether you also take any other meds?
I'm really trying to find something and it's coming down to tianeptine or EMSAM. Obviously, something with few side effects & restrictions would be optimal :)
thanks for you help
namaste,
lilith> I've been on tianeptine for almost two years. Here are some websites that describe it in much more detail:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianeptine
>
> http://www.tianeptine.com
>
> http://www.tianeptine.info
>
> Hope this helps! :-)
>
>
>
> > does anyone have any current information about Tianeptine?
> >
> > I notice this is from a very old thread. Anyone taking it now?
> >
> > thanks,
> > lilith
> >
> > > I took aminemptine (Survector) for several years in Chile in the 1990's and it worked great. If it is still available in Brazil (where I visit) or anywhere else I'd love to know. (Don't worry, I won't import it . . .)
> > >
> > > I did some research when it was withdrawn, supposedly for abuse, but all the studies I found showed low abuse statistics -- and it was the most widely prescribed out-patient med in Europe for many years. The head chemist at the Chile firm that produced it under license said it had been withdrawn only because the French patent holder had a new drug (Stablon, tianeptine) that they expected to be more profitable.
> > >
> > > I have not tried Stablon. As to its action, the chemist told me that they believed its mechanism was that REDUCING serotonin caused the brain to INCREASE dopamine, therefore producing an effect similar to Survector by a different method.
> > >
> > > When I returned to the US no one knew about either drug so I tried Welbutrin since it was the only anti-depressant with a dopamine enhancer, and it was terrible for me: I had seriously uncontrollable episodes of rage that lasted for months even after I stopped taking the drug. Scared the hell out of me and my family.
> > >
> > > I've tried a variety of things since then, and what seems to work best is something the docs say shouldn't work at all: a combination of low doses of zoloft and celexa, with amantadine (a dopamine enhancer prescribed for Parkinsons)
> > >
> > > Just shows: people are different, and what works for one doesn't work for another. Psychiatric pharmacology is mostly flying blind, trial and error, not customized to the individual. Where's Timothy Leary when we really need him?
> > >
> > > Good luck to all.
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by sukarno on January 15, 2007, at 9:22:13
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression » sukarno, posted by liliths on January 14, 2007, at 13:08:34
Hi! :-)
The standard dose is 3x/day, but I've been taking it 4x/day for the most part, although I increased it to 5x/day to help me with my Valium taper.
I'm on Valium 2mg tablets (4 in the morning and 4 at night, down from 5 in the morning and 5 at night. I'm decreasing the dose of Valium by 2mg every two weeks.) and famotidine 40mg QID (4x/day) for acid reflux.
I think you'd prefer tianeptine over EMSAM. EMSAM might make you nervous, especially if you are prone to anxiety. Tianeptine has far fewer side effects. It has the least side effects of any drug I've tried (and I've tried a lot). :-)
I hope you can give it a try. It'll take a few weeks for it to start working and is quite anxiolytic too (without producing sedation, so you are still alert).
It helps me to worry less and reduces/removes the little aches and pains I had due to anxiety and depression.
Good luck! :-)
Posted by liliths on January 15, 2007, at 10:26:05
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression, posted by sukarno on January 15, 2007, at 9:22:13
thank you for the info... sounds like it might be worth trying first... though it's pretty expensive.
The cheapest I've been able to find still puts it at $100 for 120 pills - about a month's supply. Since I have to order it from overseas and my insurance won't pick it up, that's probably the only thing that has me wavering.
thanks again
namaste,
lilith> Hi! :-)
>
> The standard dose is 3x/day, but I've been taking it 4x/day for the most part, although I increased it to 5x/day to help me with my Valium taper.
>
> I'm on Valium 2mg tablets (4 in the morning and 4 at night, down from 5 in the morning and 5 at night. I'm decreasing the dose of Valium by 2mg every two weeks.) and famotidine 40mg QID (4x/day) for acid reflux.
>
> I think you'd prefer tianeptine over EMSAM. EMSAM might make you nervous, especially if you are prone to anxiety. Tianeptine has far fewer side effects. It has the least side effects of any drug I've tried (and I've tried a lot). :-)
>
> I hope you can give it a try. It'll take a few weeks for it to start working and is quite anxiolytic too (without producing sedation, so you are still alert).
>
> It helps me to worry less and reduces/removes the little aches and pains I had due to anxiety and depression.
>
> Good luck! :-)
Posted by liliths on January 15, 2007, at 10:33:59
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression, posted by sukarno on January 15, 2007, at 9:22:13
sorry to bug you but I read a thread somewhere where it was contraindicated with ADD meds. Now most places only mention MAOI's. This was the first time I saw stimulents mentioned.
I haven't been able to find more info on that but it's causing some concern. Have you ever heard of anything like that?
thanks
namaste,
lilith> Hi! :-)
>
> The standard dose is 3x/day, but I've been taking it 4x/day for the most part, although I increased it to 5x/day to help me with my Valium taper.
>
> I'm on Valium 2mg tablets (4 in the morning and 4 at night, down from 5 in the morning and 5 at night. I'm decreasing the dose of Valium by 2mg every two weeks.) and famotidine 40mg QID (4x/day) for acid reflux.
>
> I think you'd prefer tianeptine over EMSAM. EMSAM might make you nervous, especially if you are prone to anxiety. Tianeptine has far fewer side effects. It has the least side effects of any drug I've tried (and I've tried a lot). :-)
>
> I hope you can give it a try. It'll take a few weeks for it to start working and is quite anxiolytic too (without producing sedation, so you are still alert).
>
> It helps me to worry less and reduces/removes the little aches and pains I had due to anxiety and depression.
>
> Good luck! :-)
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 15, 2007, at 20:24:49
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression » sukarno, posted by liliths on January 14, 2007, at 13:08:34
Sukarno wrote_________________
I think you'd prefer tianeptine over EMSAM. EMSAM might make you nervous, especially if you are prone to anxiety. Tianeptine has far fewer side effects. It has the least side effects of any drug I've tried (and I've tried a lot). :-)I hope you can give it a try. It'll take a few weeks for it to start working and is quite anxiolytic too (without producing sedation, so you are still alert).
It helps me to worry less and reduces/removes the little aches and pains I had due to anxiety and depression.
______________I agree with everything written above--if your criteria is low-side-effects, tianeptine is likely the way to go, though some people complain of headaches and sleep disturbance (not me). I'm normally very sensitive to various s/e, and it's the only med I take regularly, because it is not troublesome. It does tend to be anxiolytice without sedation, reduce sensitivity to pain, and improve mood. Some people complain it is not very powerful, but that complaint is there with most drugs, as far as I can tell.
Best of luck,
Pbot
Posted by liliths on January 16, 2007, at 7:06:17
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression, posted by psychobot5000 on January 15, 2007, at 20:24:49
thank you for adding your input. i actually came 'this' close to ordering some yesterday but saw a post from someone who said they experienced wieght gain from it and I just froze! That's a big no-no side effect for me. I find no relief from depression if THAT occurs.
looks like the cheapest I can find it, pus it at about $100 a month. Are you taking it 3x a day?
how long did it take before you felt it?
thanks again
namaste,
lilith>
> Sukarno wrote_________________
> I think you'd prefer tianeptine over EMSAM. EMSAM might make you nervous, especially if you are prone to anxiety. Tianeptine has far fewer side effects. It has the least side effects of any drug I've tried (and I've tried a lot). :-)
>
> I hope you can give it a try. It'll take a few weeks for it to start working and is quite anxiolytic too (without producing sedation, so you are still alert).
>
> It helps me to worry less and reduces/removes the little aches and pains I had due to anxiety and depression.
> ______________
>
> I agree with everything written above--if your criteria is low-side-effects, tianeptine is likely the way to go, though some people complain of headaches and sleep disturbance (not me). I'm normally very sensitive to various s/e, and it's the only med I take regularly, because it is not troublesome. It does tend to be anxiolytice without sedation, reduce sensitivity to pain, and improve mood. Some people complain it is not very powerful, but that complaint is there with most drugs, as far as I can tell.
>
> Best of luck,
> Pbot
Posted by Declan on January 16, 2007, at 19:19:54
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression, posted by sukarno on January 15, 2007, at 9:22:13
I've noticed that, how tianeptine seems to help with them.
Supposed to be of some use for IBS and asthma too.
Posted by sukarno on January 16, 2007, at 22:56:06
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression » psychobot5000, posted by liliths on January 16, 2007, at 7:06:17
Hi again. :-)
I never experienced any weight gain on tianeptine. If anything, in the first few weeks it reduced my appetite slightly. Weight gain is definitely not a side effect listed in the pamphlet that comes with Stablon.
It's just one person here who reported they gained weight, and even then, it's hard to determine cause and effect. It's just anecdotal. :-) Someone might not eat much when they are depressed and when they take any antidepressant, they'll eat more when they feel better. That could explain the weight gain.
If I am severely depressed, I won't want to eat much of anything. Some people eat more when they're depressed (especially carbohydrates) and then eat less when the antidepressant starts working.
In theory, tianeptine should not cause weight gain, since it gives dopamine a slight boost in the nucleus accumbens and frontal cortex. SSRIs, on the other hand, antagonize (reduce) dopamine and are linked to weight gain, even though they can actually reduce the appetite. Antipsychotics are notorious for causing weight gain since their principal action is that of a dopamine antagonist.
I don't think it will be a problem. I think it won't affect your weight one way or the other. :-)
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 17, 2007, at 1:10:46
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression » psychobot5000, posted by liliths on January 16, 2007, at 7:06:17
> i actually came 'this' close to ordering some yesterday but saw a post from someone who said they experienced wieght gain from it and I just froze! That's a big no-no side effect for me. I find no relief from depression if THAT occurs.
>
> looks like the cheapest I can find it, pus it at about $100 a month. Are you taking it 3x a day?
>
> how long did it take before you felt it?
>I take it three times a day, yes, each dose about five to six hours apart, usually. It's a more subtle drug than others, but I believe I felt the positive effects of it within one to two weeks (I tend to be a fast responder).
Definitely never had weight-gain on it. People's experiences tend to differ, but I personally think that tianeptine makes me lose a little weight, since it deals with 'vegetative' depressive symptoms. I think it unlikely that this med's properties make it likely it would cause weight-gain--the statistics I've seen (charts of reported side-effects) do not suggest that as being the case with any frequency.
All that said, EMSAM is, I think a more powerful drug than tianeptine. Best of luck,
P-bot
Posted by elanor roosevelt on January 17, 2007, at 11:55:09
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression » liliths, posted by psychobot5000 on January 17, 2007, at 1:10:46
is it safe to begin the tianeptine while still on an ssri?
can it be combined with adderall?
Posted by sukarno on January 17, 2007, at 12:21:53
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression, posted by elanor roosevelt on January 17, 2007, at 11:55:09
I wouldn't begin tianeptine while still on an SSRI, since it works in the opposite way. I'd taper off the SSRI gradually first and then start tianeptine after all signs of withdrawal have passed.
You can combine it with Adderall as there is no contraindication regarding this. (The only contraindications are that tianeptine should never be taken with an MAO inhibitor.)
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 17, 2007, at 17:29:21
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression, posted by elanor roosevelt on January 17, 2007, at 11:55:09
The only contraindicated drugs for tianeptine are MAOis, but this is not due to a known danger--only to inadequate research on the subject. Tianeptine actually has been combined with MAOis, SSRIs, and definitely stimulants, safely. There really isn't enough literature on the drug to know whether it's absolutely safe, but on the other hand, there is little reason why not to.
The dopaminergic (and possibly the antidepressant) effects of tianeptine do not seem to be dependent on its effect on serotonin--there is not enough research into what happens when combining it with an SSRI, but it has been done without safety issues, and some people on this board (and at least one case report) claim an augmented response using the two together.
According to my experience, tianeptine does not seem to interact with stimulants--the effects seemed additive, but do not seem to directly interact (i.e. they didn't modify, potentiate, or block each other as far as I could tell). I found the combination useful for treatment-resistant depression, though the side-effects of the stimulants (sleep disruption, heart-rate) ultimately led me to drop them from my regimen. Since tianeptine usually is not motivating or stimulating, stimulants seem natural drugs to combine with it in treating treatment-resistant depression. With SSRIs...it's hard to know (from theory and pharmacology) what ought to occur when combining with tianeptine, but the result does -not- seem to be that they block each others' effects (from the little clinical evidence available), though that would theoretically be a possible result.
Best of luck,
p-bot
Posted by liliths on January 18, 2007, at 9:12:39
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression » liliths, posted by psychobot5000 on January 17, 2007, at 1:10:46
thank you for your input. I think I'm going to give it a try and get away from seeing a psychiatrist at all, if I can. I'm going to ask my primary if she will write my ADD and klonopin scripts and try the taineptine. Even with the expense of $100 a month, if it works it'll be worth it and I'll be saving $ not seeing my pdoc as he's not covered under my insurance.
thanks again
namaste,
lilith> > i actually came 'this' close to ordering some yesterday but saw a post from someone who said they experienced wieght gain from it and I just froze! That's a big no-no side effect for me. I find no relief from depression if THAT occurs.
> >
> > looks like the cheapest I can find it, pus it at about $100 a month. Are you taking it 3x a day?
> >
> > how long did it take before you felt it?
> >
>
> I take it three times a day, yes, each dose about five to six hours apart, usually. It's a more subtle drug than others, but I believe I felt the positive effects of it within one to two weeks (I tend to be a fast responder).
>
> Definitely never had weight-gain on it. People's experiences tend to differ, but I personally think that tianeptine makes me lose a little weight, since it deals with 'vegetative' depressive symptoms. I think it unlikely that this med's properties make it likely it would cause weight-gain--the statistics I've seen (charts of reported side-effects) do not suggest that as being the case with any frequency.
>
> All that said, EMSAM is, I think a more powerful drug than tianeptine. Best of luck,
> P-bot
Posted by liliths on January 18, 2007, at 9:32:53
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression, posted by sukarno on January 16, 2007, at 22:56:06
thank you so much for your input.
I just placed an order for 120 pills (1 month)!!!wish me luck :)))
thank again
namaste,
lilith> Hi again. :-)
>
> I never experienced any weight gain on tianeptine. If anything, in the first few weeks it reduced my appetite slightly. Weight gain is definitely not a side effect listed in the pamphlet that comes with Stablon.
>
> It's just one person here who reported they gained weight, and even then, it's hard to determine cause and effect. It's just anecdotal. :-) Someone might not eat much when they are depressed and when they take any antidepressant, they'll eat more when they feel better. That could explain the weight gain.
>
> If I am severely depressed, I won't want to eat much of anything. Some people eat more when they're depressed (especially carbohydrates) and then eat less when the antidepressant starts working.
>
> In theory, tianeptine should not cause weight gain, since it gives dopamine a slight boost in the nucleus accumbens and frontal cortex. SSRIs, on the other hand, antagonize (reduce) dopamine and are linked to weight gain, even though they can actually reduce the appetite. Antipsychotics are notorious for causing weight gain since their principal action is that of a dopamine antagonist.
>
> I don't think it will be a problem. I think it won't affect your weight one way or the other. :-)
>
>
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 19, 2007, at 12:33:47
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression » psychobot5000, posted by liliths on January 18, 2007, at 9:12:39
Posted by liliths on January 21, 2007, at 10:17:10
In reply to Hope it helps, and good luck (nm) » liliths, posted by psychobot5000 on January 19, 2007, at 12:33:47
Posted by itsme2003 on January 21, 2007, at 16:26:05
In reply to Re: Hope it helps, and good luck Thanks!! (nm) » psychobot5000, posted by liliths on January 21, 2007, at 10:17:10
I saw the references to paying $100 per month (90 pills) for stablon (tianeptine). There are better sources. If you look carefully you can find it for $48 for 90 pills.
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 26, 2007, at 13:38:37
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression » sukarno, posted by liliths on January 18, 2007, at 9:32:53
Have you started the tianeptine yet? I am really curious how it works out, please keep us updated on your success!
JB
Posted by liliths on January 26, 2007, at 15:14:12
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression » liliths, posted by Jimmyboy on January 26, 2007, at 13:38:37
hi JB
I'm still waiting to receive it from overseas.
I really hope it helps because I'm at an all time low right nowI promise to post once I begin though I know it might take a couple of weeks before I feel anything
And thank you so much for your post.
Being in such a bad place, the smallest human kindness means a lot to me. :)namaste,
lilith> Have you started the tianeptine yet? I am really curious how it works out, please keep us updated on your success!
>
> JB
Posted by sukarno on January 27, 2007, at 5:37:34
In reply to Re: amineptine/tianeptine for depression » Jimmyboy, posted by liliths on January 26, 2007, at 15:14:12
My friend's mother has severe asthma and is taking salbutamol tablets. I told her about tianeptine and gave her the abstracts about it being a treatment for asthma and also told her to show those abstracts to her doctor before she takes it. She went to the pharmacy and bought it and will talk to her doctor...I am very excited to hear about this because tianeptine can markedly reduce the symptoms of asthma by removing free serotonin from the plasma and increasing its uptake in the platelets.
There is a correlation between the severity of asthma and high plasma serotonin levels.
I know it has greatly reduced the number of asthmatic episodes I've had, although it doesn't really help if I am exposed to a known allergen.
In the absence of known allergens I used to have symptoms of asthma, but tianeptine seems to work best at controlling those. I know when I first began taking tianeptine I could breathe so much better.
You can find the references about its usefulness in asthma on wikipedia:
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 27, 2007, at 12:35:54
In reply to tianeptine for asthma, posted by sukarno on January 27, 2007, at 5:37:34
I also have noticed that I've breathed better, particularly when exercising, since starting Tianeptine.
I also find it not to be useful, however, for anything related to allergens.
This is the end of the thread.
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