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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2006, at 16:03:16
In reply to Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 13:37:19
Googled it . Said similar to lunesta but not controlled in the US. And nonaddictive. Love Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk on December 31, 2006, at 16:04:31
In reply to Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 13:37:19
>Or because melatonin isn't patentable?
That sounds more like it!
Ed
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 16:09:29
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin? » laima, posted by ed_uk on December 31, 2006, at 16:04:31
Ed, my suspicion is the same as yours!Phillipa, rozerem is NOT like lunesta- I don't know who wrote that, but it's pretty unique as far as prescription sleep meds go. I believe I heard it's a "melatonin antagonist", meaning something like it makes one's melatonin hang around longer. So I wonder, how is that better than taking a melatonin supplement? Both techniques result in more melatonin in the brain.
Posted by ed_uk on December 31, 2006, at 16:18:10
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 16:09:29
Hi Lima
Rozerem is a melatonin agonist. It binds to the same receptors as natural melatonin and activates them, thus inducing sleep.
Ed
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 16:26:20
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin? » laima, posted by ed_uk on December 31, 2006, at 16:18:10
..agonist, antagonist. I got mixed up, thanks for correction. :)But I still can't figure out why we are supposed to think rozerem is better than melatonin supplements.
> Hi Lima
>
> Rozerem is a melatonin agonist. It binds to the same receptors as natural melatonin and activates them, thus inducing sleep.
>
> Ed
Posted by yxibow on December 31, 2006, at 17:07:28
In reply to Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 13:37:19
>
> Does anyone know, what is supposed to be the point of using rozerem instead of melatonin? Because it's stronger? Or because melatonin isn't patentable? Or something else? Thanks.According to my psychopharmacologist, who is usually fairly reliable on these things, it is around 17x more powerful than OTC melatonin.
I'm testing it at the moment with a bit of Ambien to get off Ambien because its not working as well at a higher dose, although I may return to Ambien.
Some people, especially who are not as insomniac as I am report fairly good results with it -- it varies. It doesn't necessarily cause daytime depression although I suppose if you're especially susceptible to melatonin depression it might not be a good choice. It's more targeted than melatonin, that's about it.
But if melatonin works for you and you're not quite the insomniac I am (I tried a single 5mg OTC melatonin dose and woke up 4 hours in night terrors), than you might not need it.
-- Jay
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 17:37:35
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin? » laima, posted by yxibow on December 31, 2006, at 17:07:28
Thanks. Your information makes it seem like they might be over-marketing the rozerem then, though.
> According to my psychopharmacologist, who is usually fairly reliable on these things, it is around 17x more powerful than OTC melatonin.
>
> I'm testing it at the moment with a bit of Ambien to get off Ambien because its not working as well at a higher dose, although I may return to Ambien.
>
> Some people, especially who are not as insomniac as I am report fairly good results with it -- it varies. It doesn't necessarily cause daytime depression although I suppose if you're especially susceptible to melatonin depression it might not be a good choice. It's more targeted than melatonin, that's about it.
>
> But if melatonin works for you and you're not quite the insomniac I am (I tried a single 5mg OTC melatonin dose and woke up 4 hours in night terrors), than you might not need it.
>
> -- Jay
Posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2006, at 19:42:32
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 16:09:29
Laima guess I picked a bad google link. Thanks Love Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 20:17:47
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin? » laima, posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2006, at 19:42:32
Melatonin is a hormone. Perhaps Rozerem doesn't interfere with hormones the way that melatonin can.
I heard that melatonin can do things like decrease lutenizing hormone.
But would rozerem not being a hormone affect anything?
Linkadge
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 20:29:09
In reply to Re: Rozerem not a hormone?, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 20:17:47
Thanks, Linkdage. I knew there just HAD to be something.
Posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 20:29:20
In reply to Re: Rozerem not a hormone?, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 20:17:47
Rozerem might bind to the melatonin receptors for a longer time than natural melatonin?
Linkadge
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 20:29:59
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin? » laima, posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2006, at 19:42:32
That's ok Phillipa- there's a lot of strange info out there!
Posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 20:31:02
In reply to Re: Half life?, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 20:29:20
Would rozerem decrease the production of natural melatonin? If so, mightn't this increase the risk of certain cancers, as low melatonin excretion has been implicated in certain cancer growth?
Linkadge
Posted by madeline on December 31, 2006, at 20:31:47
In reply to Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 13:37:19
Here is the company information/propaganda
http://www.rozerem.com/FAQ.aspx#Melatonin
IMHO, I would use with caution. It's a new drug, and sometime it takes years for all the side effects to show up.
However, when you buy melatonin, you never really know what you are going to get because it is still considered a supplement I think.
Maddie
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 20:43:29
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin? » laima, posted by madeline on December 31, 2006, at 20:31:47
Thanks.
I use melatonin sometimes and like it, but the fact that someone would make "rozerem" made me wonder, "Why? Is something wrong with plain melatonin?" I've tried rozerem, but it made me feel like a slug the entire next day, each time.
> Here is the company information/propaganda
>
> http://www.rozerem.com/FAQ.aspx#Melatonin
>
> IMHO, I would use with caution. It's a new drug, and sometime it takes years for all the side effects to show up.
>
> However, when you buy melatonin, you never really know what you are going to get because it is still considered a supplement I think.
>
> Maddie
Posted by med_empowered on January 1, 2007, at 12:52:03
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 20:43:29
I think its mostly a patent issue. I did read somewhere that rozerem may have longer effects, which I guess could be good or bad (plus..its easy enough to make a melatonin extended release; its already done for vitamins).
Rozerem kind of bothers me. Melatonin can act as an antioxidant, and helps some conditions--high doses (10mgs) can sometimes help tardive dyskinesia, for instance.
Posted by laima on January 1, 2007, at 18:40:09
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin? » laima, posted by madeline on December 31, 2006, at 20:31:47
The rozerem company lists the following statement on their website:"Little evidence exists for melatonin’s efficacy in the treatment of insomnia.[8]"
I find that pretty hard to back-up. Melatonin's worked out pretty well for me, and unlike rozerem, doesn't leave me with a day-long sluggy-hangover either. I can't help but conclude rozerem is much about patentability.
Posted by yxibow on January 2, 2007, at 1:50:11
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by laima on January 1, 2007, at 18:40:09
>
> The rozerem company lists the following statement on their website:
>
> "Little evidence exists for melatonin’s efficacy in the treatment of insomnia.[8]"
>
> I find that pretty hard to back-up. Melatonin's worked out pretty well for me, and unlike rozerem, doesn't leave me with a day-long sluggy-hangover either. I can't help but conclude rozerem is much about patentability.
I agree there is marketing in it but I would say there is more than marketing. Let's use St. John's Wort as an example. Okay, some say its an MAOI too. But anyhow. Let's imagine it had all the stuff Prozac had in it, plus undocumented alkaloids and other herby things. So, someone takes the targeted parts of it and makes Prozac. That's how I view Rozerem -- its an agent that is targeted at MT1 and MT2 without the unknowns of melatonin itself. Whether its 17x more powerful or not could be argued but I'm sure it is vastly more than 5mg. And, danger will robinson, do not go and take 85mg of melatonin because you will get all the "herby things" of melatonin that are unknown, not tested on screaming baby mice and poor beagles and eventually paid healthy college students and then small universities and corporations in eastern Europe and finally trials in western countries.Okay, I just layed out Phase 0-III in a silly and fairly cynical way of how drugs are typically tested.
At any rate, my point is as before -- if 1 or 3 or 5mg of OTC melatonin does it for you, you don't need Rozerem then, because the light targeting is more than enough for yourself, just as if you took Valerian (which has herby other alkaloids in it and contrastingly while its mildly soporific it makes me nauseated the following day typically -- that's what I mean by the extra junk, that one takes along with the "good stuff" in herbs like Kava, etc.)
As for point [8] -- insomnia is a real hardcore ingrained state of lack of sleep, caused by medication, or by birth, in my case, probably both, or even possibly slight sleep apnea. Its not a mild lack of sleep. Its being unable to sleep a complete good 9 hours with Seroquel, Ambien, and Rozerem, and other agents in you and wake up with the lovely Lunesta tinkerbell just floating out the window.
Anyhow, that's my take. As for the comment on long term use of hormonal products -- well, what is the long term life robbing cost of severe lack of sleep compounded with a nasty anxiety disorder. I don't know -- everything is a tradeoff, all my medications have tradeoffs, and the increase or decrease does as well. The longterm cost of suicide is patently obvious and I didn't want to end on that note because this is a holiday season and no, you don't have to make new years resolutions -- just ideas to make what life is for -- for living. Because that's all we have in the end.Joyous New Year
-- Jay
Posted by linkadge on January 2, 2007, at 8:32:33
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin? » laima, posted by yxibow on January 2, 2007, at 1:50:11
I agree that I would rather take melatonin before rozerem.
I also don't think that no efficacy of melatonin exits. Perhaps there have been no clinical trials, but thats just because the product cannot be patented.
If it had zero effiacy then nobody would even bother to sell it as a supplement.
Linkadge
Posted by laima on January 2, 2007, at 9:14:25
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin? » laima, posted by yxibow on January 2, 2007, at 1:50:11
I conclude that 1 mg or so of melatonin seems to work for me, so I won't mess with rozerem, which knocks me out too hard, too long.
Posted by laima on January 2, 2007, at 9:19:32
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by linkadge on January 2, 2007, at 8:32:33
The US government's (rather conservative) "Medline" thinks melatonin works. They give it an "A" for jetlag, and a "B" for many other kinds of sleeping problems, including "Sleep enhancement in healthy people".
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-melatonin.html
Posted by yxibow on January 2, 2007, at 14:30:35
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by laima on January 2, 2007, at 9:19:32
>
> The US government's (rather conservative) "Medline" thinks melatonin works. They give it an "A" for jetlag, and a "B" for many other kinds of sleeping problems, including "Sleep enhancement in healthy people".
>
>
> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-melatonin.htmlMedline is not exactly the DEA. It is a separate entity for peer reviewed journals. It may also have other information.
And yes, those two statements based on evidence based journals are true -- melatonin is one of a few OTC substances in those who a) don't have much insomnia to begin with ("healthy people") and b) it is used commonly to reset jet lag, even by doctors who have to go to conferences. But that is a stage process, you take it so many hours different off on day intervals and you wake up at your conference in Prague ready to present your powerpoint slides. Or hopefully rested anyhow.
-- Jay
Posted by djmmm on January 5, 2007, at 9:51:26
In reply to Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 13:37:19
>
> Does anyone know, what is supposed to be the point of using rozerem instead of melatonin? Because it's stronger? Or because melatonin isn't patentable? Or something else? Thanks.It's almost certainly because melatonin is un-patentable. This isn't the first time a drug co has done something like this, and it won't be the last. I say, save your money and go with the melatonin!
Posted by Cecilia on January 6, 2007, at 2:28:47
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by djmmm on January 5, 2007, at 9:51:26
When I tried melatonin it didn't help me sleep, and when I finally did I had nightmares. I don't know if Rozerem would be worth trying. If it were over the counter I would (I don't know why it's not, if it's basically modified melatonin), but not sure it's worse the stress of asking my doctor, when it probably would have the same effect as melatonin. Cecilia
Posted by yxibow on January 6, 2007, at 13:25:22
In reply to Re: Why rozerem instead of melatonin?, posted by Cecilia on January 6, 2007, at 2:28:47
> When I tried melatonin it didn't help me sleep, and when I finally did I had nightmares. I don't know if Rozerem would be worth trying. If it were over the counter I would (I don't know why it's not, if it's basically modified melatonin), but not sure it's worse the stress of asking my doctor, when it probably would have the same effect as melatonin. Cecilia
Yes -- it was my experience of nightmares at the typical highest dose of melatonin you see wherever you shop for alternative (well one can argue melatonin and a few substances are more in the mainstream) substances -- 5mg. I woke up in the middle of a stage REM sleep and so I had hypnagogic hallucinations and felt well... kinda psychotic.
Not so with the Rozerem + remaining Ambien + my usual Seroquel which has always been there -- so there is definately something different about Rozerem and the whole combination of above (not suggesting one start on it, I just need the Seroquel and the Ambien is a crossover) that has allowed me to well, not wake up rested as a baby -- I'm sure I have some minor sleep apnea or something, but more sleep than before.
I agree that melatonin isn't a really novel substance to be patented, but you're not getting melatonin. You're getting an agent that specifically targets the same receptors that melatonin does (MT1 and MT2, partial MT3), which is not the same.
If you rotate the chemical structure of Rozerem and compare it to melatonin there are some similarities but they are not the same thing, just because they happen to both be organic compounds with nitrogen in them as well. Additionally, it is likely to be a more chemically pure substance than melatonin itself.-- tidings
This is the end of the thread.
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