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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by mindevolution on January 2, 2007, at 21:01:48
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long?, posted by linkadge on January 2, 2007, at 18:26:40
hiya linkadge you bring up some good and interesting points, which made me think!
> >you can't cure it with drugs only get some >relief from symptoms while you get therapy.
> I think that depends on the nature of the underlying problem. Thyroid problems for instance, are a biochemical cause of depression in some. For some of these people, thyroid can cure the problem.
sure, but I said you can't cure or prevent mental illness with drugs. thyroid problems, cancers, viruses, etc can all cause mental illness symptoms, but they have a physical cause and therefore and not considered mental illnesses, well at least that's how I understand it. :)
> >problem is some drugs cause physical brain >damage particularly the toxic ones like >antipsychotics, and you can't cure permanent >damage to your CNS.
>
> I agree with that.
>it makes me shudder to think how many people have been permanently damaged by the mental health system that forces toxic brain damaging chemical such as antipsychotic down mental illness patients throats against their will. I think i read somewhere that sales of antipsychotics are now greater than sales of antidepressants. why don't they force mental illness patients to have therapy as a front line treatment and then if that fails hit the meds????
> >so if you want a permanent cure to mental >illness, try no meds and therapy.
>
> I've gone both ways. With or without meds. I wouldn't say that no meds and therapy have cured anything, but thats not to say it doesn't work for some.
>
as long as your meds don't have toxic side effects I say go for it and enjoy the relief! when we have a cold, no one says you have to tough it out without sleeping aids and pseudoephidrine. but even anti depressants cause an antipsychotic side effect of akathisia which increases suicide potential, they even put warnings on ssris and snris. akathisia is generally linked to damage to the cholinergic system in particular (bad damage = Alzeimers), nerve toxins such as vx or sarin gas or pesticides kill via damaging the cholinergic system. with less damage it shows up as akathisia, insomnia, and anxiety.so starting on an antidepressant may lead to suicide or physical damage to the cholinergic system creating a physicl disease in the patient in the form of physically based chronic anxiety, and once physical damage is incurred, the patient is no longer able to make as high a level recovery. also they may trigger mania requiring antipsychotics and before you know it the patient is on a one way path to severe disease and illness.
i still think that many can benefit from the drugs, and i am in no way anti-drugs in any way shape or form, I just think due to the risks they should be seen as second line treatments, if you know what i mean?
> >can someone tell me why psychiatrists are the >front line for treatment for mental illness >rather than psychologists?????? surely mental >illness can be cured with good therapy,
>
> Thats not always true. I know people who have attended years of the best therapy money can buy, and can gain tremendous insight to the nature of their suffering, but are yet still completely unable to change the way they feel on a daily basis. Brain chemistry can profoundly affect mood just like it can affect movement, hence I would say that depression is no less a biochemical problem (for some) than parkinsons.
>thumbs up, therapy can cure, but doesn't work for everyone. but those that get cured with therapy make a complete recoveries of the highest level. so that's why i think it should be front line rather than forcing drugs on people.
> >but zap someone with ect or give them toxic >doses of antipsychotics and it doesn't matter >how much therapy they have after that, the >patient will never be able to recover fully!
>
> I'd have to say I agree. Thought, just because our treatments are fairly crappy, doesn't detract from the fact that some people's mood disorders may be a result of some form of brain abnormality.sure, but it is impossible to separate those with things like pathological depression from depression from choosing the wrong wife or the wrong job, or childhood issues, etc. can't we try everyone on therapy first then send those that still have problems to get some meds? by sending them all to meds introduces unnecessary disease in many patients that could have otherwise made a full recovery.
>
> >or am i missing something?
>
> I think that some people are prone to these types of illnesses. Just because they havn't found a cure doesn't mean there isn't one (for certain forms of depression)
>
> Its just like depression in epilepsy. Some think that the epileptic dysfunction is the same dysfunction that mediates the mood disorder. As such, the depression is no less a brain abnormality than the seizures.
>
I don't know enough about epilepsy to be able to comment, is it a mental illness or a physical disease?
>
> Linkadge
>
ME
Posted by laima on January 2, 2007, at 21:12:24
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » laima, posted by Farkus on January 2, 2007, at 19:43:41
Wow, well I'm dismayed to hear that anyone would question or wonder about your success with your medication. Why make new problems, especially as you start to feel better? Sounds like you've got things worked out though, and that's really good to hear, it's huge. :)
> << In terms of it's class, it's gets a little better rep around this board than some of the others. I've had some unsettling and confusing feedback, so my decision was to avoid the "kitchen" as I did not want to take the "heat". I understand the frustration people have trying to find a workable treatment plan. I think it can be easy to wonder about (and question) other's success when one is struggling. It was not very fun to have it done to me.
Posted by saturn on January 2, 2007, at 23:19:06
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » linkadge, posted by tensor on January 2, 2007, at 15:07:49
> Remeron kept me in remission for three years.
>
> /MattiasMay I ask if it pooped-out or you stopped for other reasons (assuming you stopped)?
Posted by tensor on January 3, 2007, at 5:47:02
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » tensor, posted by saturn on January 2, 2007, at 23:19:06
May I ask if it pooped-out or you stopped for other reasons (assuming you stopped)?
It has pooped out several time, but I've always kept it in my combo, partly because it helps a bit with sleep. However, I stopped it two weeks ago but I'm seriously thinking of starting it again.
That would be remeron+wellbutrin+zoloft, but will maybe ditch zoloft, not sure yet.
/Mattias
Posted by Farkus on January 3, 2007, at 5:59:05
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long?, posted by laima on January 2, 2007, at 18:23:32
Posted by SLS on January 3, 2007, at 7:07:56
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » saturn, posted by tensor on January 3, 2007, at 5:47:02
> May I ask if it pooped-out or you stopped for other reasons (assuming you stopped)?
>
> It has pooped out several time, but I've always kept it in my combo, partly because it helps a bit with sleep. However, I stopped it two weeks ago but I'm seriously thinking of starting it again.
> That would be remeron+wellbutrin+zoloft, but will maybe ditch zoloft, not sure yet.Have you been up to 200mg with the Zoloft?
Have you tried Effexor in place of Zoloft in the combination? On paper, it should be a potent combination. Wellbutrin + Effexor is often more effective than either drug alone, and Remeron + Effexor is the noted "California Rocket Fuel" combination advocated by Stephen Stahl, MD. You might want to try working up to 300mg with the Effexor. Zoloft wasnt' a bad choice, though.
- Scott
Posted by tensor on January 3, 2007, at 7:28:03
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » tensor, posted by SLS on January 3, 2007, at 7:07:56
Hi Scott,
>Have you been up to 200mg with the Zoloft?
>Have you tried Effexor in place of Zoloft in the combination? On paper, it should be a potent combination. Wellbutrin + Effexor is often more effective than either drug alone, and Remeron + Effexor is the noted "California Rocket Fuel" combination advocated by Stephen Stahl, MD. You might want to try working up to 300mg with the Effexor. Zoloft wasnt' a bad choice, though.
High doses of Zoloft gives me akathisia, and effexor gave me horrible s/e. However, last night I took 15mg of Remeron to induce sleep + a hypnotic, it worked. More interestingly, I woke up this morning without being nauseous and without abdominal pain and not as shaky as I usually do. I wonder if this is indicating that Remeron + Wellbutrin would be a better choice than Wellbutrin + Zoloft. What do you think?
I really don't like doing any changes this early in a trial(two weeks on Wellbutrin), but if the difference is the big I wonder if it could be clever anyway. I have a speical realtionship with remeron, though it has failed me many times, it still going strong when it does work.
I have a book with Stephen M. Stahl, MD which I like a lot, he's also saying that Zoloft+Wellbutrin is used with success under the name "Well-loft".
/Mattias
Posted by joslynn on January 3, 2007, at 8:41:50
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long?, posted by mindevolution on January 2, 2007, at 21:01:48
> sure, but it is impossible to separate those with things like pathological depression from depression from choosing the wrong wife or the wrong job, or childhood issues, etc. can't we try everyone on therapy first then send those that still have problems to get some meds?I used to think that way too. But through reading different things, I am starting to think that it could be a chicken and egg thing. That is, someone who has a low level of depression already there could make bad choices about a spouse, job, etc., so it may not be the choices that made them depressed, but the depression that made them make bad choices.
Also, even if one does have depression that is only the result of bad choices, the change in their brain chemistry can still, in some cases, be helped by meds. So I don't think it's as simple as: depression caused by lifestyle, fix with just lifestyle changes; depression caused by biology, fix by biological changes via meds.
There is overlap. Bad lifestyle choices can alter what happens physiologically in your brain. And having a depressed brain can cause you to make bad lifestyle choices.
This is at least how I understand it now. I also did not believe in meds the first time I was severely depressed, and just did therapy. The depression did lift after about 6 long months. But years later, it came back, and I couldn't afford to be out of commission for 6 months again. Plus it was worse the second time. So I went on meds. And did therapy. The therapy helped immensely, as did better lifestyle choices, but the question is...would I have been stable enough to get anything out of therapy had I not taken the meds?
It is so very confusing sometimes. I can go back and forth on this myself. But, I am on meds, and I am in remission. So, I don't want to chuck the meds yet.
Just my .02
Posted by SLS on January 3, 2007, at 8:46:23
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » SLS, posted by tensor on January 3, 2007, at 7:28:03
> Hi Scott,
>
> >Have you been up to 200mg with the Zoloft?
>
> >Have you tried Effexor in place of Zoloft in the combination? On paper, it should be a potent combination. Wellbutrin + Effexor is often more effective than either drug alone, and Remeron + Effexor is the noted "California Rocket Fuel" combination advocated by Stephen Stahl, MD. You might want to try working up to 300mg with the Effexor. Zoloft wasnt' a bad choice, though.
>
> High doses of Zoloft gives me akathisia, and effexor gave me horrible s/e. However, last night I took 15mg of Remeron to induce sleep + a hypnotic, it worked. More interestingly, I woke up this morning without being nauseous and without abdominal pain and not as shaky as I usually do. I wonder if this is indicating that Remeron + Wellbutrin would be a better choice than Wellbutrin + Zoloft. What do you think?
>
> I really don't like doing any changes this early in a trial(two weeks on Wellbutrin), but if the difference is the big I wonder if it could be clever anyway. I have a speical realtionship with remeron, though it has failed me many times, it still going strong when it does work.
>
> I have a book with Stephen M. Stahl, MD which I like a lot, he's also saying that Zoloft+Wellbutrin is used with success under the name "Well-loft".
>
> /Mattias
The Wellbutrin + Remeron combination is rather novel, and I would definitely not skip over it given the positive hints it has given you. I've tried the Well-oft combination, and received a short antidepressant effect. However, when we teased out the components in my regimen, it seems likely that it was Lamictal + Wellbutrin that was most contributory. My doctor has had quite a bit of success with the Lamictal + Wellbutrin combination, although I have seen a few people get a little manic and others get agitated on it. It is difficult for me to say whether or not these are self-limiting effects because these people discontinued the medication once they appeared. In my case, if mania were to appear, I wouldn't hesitate to add Zyprexa temporarily to see if it would squash the reaction. I would then attempt to remove it after a period of a month or two. I believe Lamictal is secondarily pro-dopaminergic via glutamate release inhibition, and might act synergistically with Wellbutrin to produce activated and perhaps less anhedonic states.If you have the patience, you might want to consider adding Lamictal before abandoning Wellbutrin.
I would be most interested to see how Remeron + Wellbutrin works out for you. There are quite a few mechanisms involved. It is suspected that the predominant final outcome of Wellbutrin is pro-noradrenergic, probably through mechanisms other than reuptake inhibition. This might be amplified by the NE alpha-2 antagonist properties of Remeron.
What has been your experience with tricyclics and MAOIs?
It is likely that the 5-HT3 antagonist property of Remeron acts as an antiemetic to reduce nausea. It's good that you are so tuned-in to your mind-body to recognize such things.
Hopefully, you can begin to sort all of this out. I am eager to see you benefit from either Wellbutrin + Remeron or perhaps Wellbutrin + Lamictal.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 3, 2007, at 8:49:06
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long?, posted by joslynn on January 3, 2007, at 8:41:50
> > sure, but it is impossible to separate those with things like pathological depression from depression from choosing the wrong wife or the wrong job, or childhood issues, etc. can't we try everyone on therapy first then send those that still have problems to get some meds?
>
> I used to think that way too. But through reading different things, I am starting to think that it could be a chicken and egg thing. That is, someone who has a low level of depression already there could make bad choices about a spouse, job, etc., so it may not be the choices that made them depressed, but the depression that made them make bad choices.
>
> Also, even if one does have depression that is only the result of bad choices, the change in their brain chemistry can still, in some cases, be helped by meds. So I don't think it's as simple as: depression caused by lifestyle, fix with just lifestyle changes; depression caused by biology, fix by biological changes via meds.
>
> There is overlap. Bad lifestyle choices can alter what happens physiologically in your brain. And having a depressed brain can cause you to make bad lifestyle choices.
>
> This is at least how I understand it now. I also did not believe in meds the first time I was severely depressed, and just did therapy. The depression did lift after about 6 long months. But years later, it came back, and I couldn't afford to be out of commission for 6 months again. Plus it was worse the second time. So I went on meds. And did therapy. The therapy helped immensely, as did better lifestyle choices, but the question is...would I have been stable enough to get anything out of therapy had I not taken the meds?
>
> It is so very confusing sometimes. I can go back and forth on this myself. But, I am on meds, and I am in remission. So, I don't want to chuck the meds yet.
>
> Just my .02
Good stuff.
- Scott
Posted by tensor on January 3, 2007, at 9:13:34
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » tensor, posted by SLS on January 3, 2007, at 8:46:23
I discontinued Lamictal a few weeks ago because it was making me so tired and I had no response from it. First I took it with nortriptyline+Remeron and later with Zoloft+Remeron. I tried this for several months, but nothing. Nortrip+Rem was the combo I last crashed on, about five-six months ago. So I abandoned Lamictal before Wellbutrin, so to speak.
>I would be most interested to see how Remeron + Wellbutrin works out for you.
Yes, I agree. But maybe I could keep Zoloft in my regime for a while. That would be 15mg Remeron + 300mg Wellbutrin and 50mg of Zoloft.
>What has been your experience with tricyclics and MAOIs?
No MAOIs, I have tried nortrip and clomipramine, I have responded to both. I tried clomipramine years ago but quit in quest for a med with better aim, it has a pretty disturbing s/e profile.
For me the dopaminergic effect of Lamictal was transitory, lasted a few days after each dose increase. Speaking of Stahl, MD. He recommends adding Remeron to Wellbutrin for residual depressive symptoms. Anyway, I could just add 15mg of Remeron to my existing combo and see what happens, I can always ditch Zoloft later, what do you think?
/Mattias
Posted by ClearSkies on January 3, 2007, at 9:28:41
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long?, posted by mindevolution on January 2, 2007, at 17:20:04
> the only cure for MENTAL illness is mental therapy. mental illness in in the mind not the brain, otherwise it would be called a disease like alzeihmer's or parkinsons.Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please don’t post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override or upgrade deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
ClearSkies, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by tensor on January 3, 2007, at 9:44:53
In reply to Please be civil » mindevolution, posted by ClearSkies on January 3, 2007, at 9:28:41
>> the only cure for MENTAL illness is mental therapy. mental illness in in the mind not the brain, otherwise it would be called a disease like alzeihmer's or parkinsons.
>Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please don’t post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
What's uncivil with mindevolution's post?
Posted by ClearSkies on January 3, 2007, at 10:28:08
In reply to How can you » ClearSkies, posted by tensor on January 3, 2007, at 9:44:53
> What's uncivil with mindevolution's post?I'd like to redirect discussions about this thread to Admin. Here is a link to it:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20061228/msgs/718865.html
Thanks,
ClearSkies
Posted by linkadge on January 3, 2007, at 11:24:03
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long?, posted by mindevolution on January 2, 2007, at 21:01:48
>sure, but I said you can't cure or prevent >mental illness with drugs. thyroid problems, >cancers, viruses, etc can all cause mental >illness symptoms, but they have a physical cause >and therefore and not considered mental >illnesses, well at least that's how I understand >it. :)
I've heard this kind of logic before, but never understood it. Perhaps the words "mental illness" should not be used for many of the cases presented here. We have decades of research showing that there are real, physical abnormalities in the brains of many patients with "mental illness". So call it what you like, but for many, there could be something pysically wrong.
>why don't they force mental illness patients to >have therapy as a front line treatment and then >if that fails hit the meds????
Perhaps thats true.
My arguement is that *despite* the fact that there is no proof that current drugs fix any underlingy biochemical problem, there may actually indeed be a underlying biochemical problem.
>but even anti depressants cause an antipsychotic >side effect of akathisia which increases suicide >potential, they even put warnings on ssris and >snris.
Well there are warnings that benydryl can cause psychosis, but that doesn't mean that all things taken into consideration, it is not appropriate for some people.
>akathisia is generally linked to damage to the >cholinergic system in particular (bad damage = >Alzeimers), nerve toxins such as vx or sarin gas >or pesticides kill via damaging the cholinergic >system. with less damage it shows up as >akathisia, insomnia, and anxiety.
I agree with you. I believe that potential exists. However, some people are much more susceptable to drug induced akathesia than others. Furthehrmore, I don't know if the evidence exists that these drugs are highly neurotoxic in the absence of signific adverse events.
>so starting on an antidepressant may lead to >suicide or physical damage to the cholinergic >system creating a physicl disease in the patient >in the form of physically based chronic anxiety, >and once physical damage is incurred, the >patient is no longer able to make as high a >level recovery.Thats one possability. There is data painting a slightly different picture however. For instance, depression has properties of a degeneritive illness. The more episodes a person has, the more likely the illness is to return, and with greater sevarity. There is some evidence that if depression can be brought to remission early enough, the lifetime inscidence relapse is reduced. Suicide is only a possable side effect, and so is toxicity.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for better drugs. If deprenyl were a better antidepressant, then that would be a prototype of how patients should be treated. Tianeptine is also highly neuroprotective.
>also they may trigger mania requiring >antipsychotics and before you know it the >patient is on a one way path to severe disease >and illness.
I agree these are possabilities.
>i still think that many can benefit from the >drugs, and i am in no way anti-drugs in any way >shape or form, I just think due to the risks >they should be seen as second line treatments, >if you know what i mean?
I agree that treatment protocol should start with the safest.
>thumbs up, therapy can cure, but doesn't work >for everyone. but those that get cured with >therapy make a complete recoveries of the >highest level. so that's why i think it should >be front line rather than forcing drugs on >people.
People simply need to be better informed. Thats what pages like this are all about. When I was in remission, it was with a small dose of antidepressant, a lot of alternative therapies etc.
>sure, but it is impossible to separate those >with things like pathological depression from >depression from choosing the wrong wife or the >wrong job, or childhood issues, etc. can't we >try everyone on therapy first then send those >that still have problems to get some meds?I woudn't say it is impossable. Situations depression may responds to therapy, lifestyle changes, etc, wherase other forms of depression may not.
There are two prototype cases:
Case 1:
Patient takes all the pills right up to ECT, and is still depressed when simply getting a different job would clear the depression right up.
Case 2:
Patent wracks his mind on a daily basis for the key to his depression. He questions everything in his life. He changes jobs, leaves the house, gets remaried, tries being gay, quits drinking, joins a church, becomes a missionary, gives all his money to the poor, exercises, eats right, gets better friends, becomes a pastor, vaulneteers regularly, gets excorcised, attends Benny Hinn, steps over the cracks, wins the lottery, becomes a movie star, becomes a monk, medates 24/7, practices deep breaking, yoga, aromatherapy, acupuncture, bathing in oatmeal, goes on long vaccations, fufulls his dreams, climbs mount everest, but yet still feels like sh*t all the time.
>by sending them all to meds introduces >unnecessary disease in many patients that could >have otherwise made a full recovery.Don't categorize all treatments as a whole. For instance, I would think that Tianeptine is much safer than high doses of thorazine. Maybe we'll learn more about it as time progresses. But sometimes time does more to uncover the safety and utility of a med. Ie, life extending properties of deprenyl?
>I don't know enough about epilepsy to be able to >comment, is it a mental illness or a physical >disease?
Thats what I am trying to say. Some things that are classified as mental illness ARE phyiscal disease. Neural functioning and psychologial state of mind are inseperable. Mind is matter.
It doesn't matter what the term implies, lets just focus on what the disease is.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on January 3, 2007, at 15:38:41
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » SLS, posted by tensor on January 3, 2007, at 9:13:34
> I discontinued Lamictal a few weeks ago because it was making me so tired and I had no response from it. First I took it with nortriptyline+Remeron and later with Zoloft+Remeron. I tried this for several months, but nothing. Nortrip+Rem was the combo I last crashed on, about five-six months ago. So I abandoned Lamictal before Wellbutrin, so to speak.
>
> >I would be most interested to see how Remeron + Wellbutrin works out for you.
>
> Yes, I agree. But maybe I could keep Zoloft in my regime for a while. That would be 15mg Remeron + 300mg Wellbutrin and 50mg of Zoloft.
>
> >What has been your experience with tricyclics and MAOIs?
>
> No MAOIs, I have tried nortrip and clomipramine, I have responded to both. I tried clomipramine years ago but quit in quest for a med with better aim, it has a pretty disturbing s/e profile.
>
> For me the dopaminergic effect of Lamictal was transitory, lasted a few days after each dose increase. Speaking of Stahl, MD. He recommends adding Remeron to Wellbutrin for residual depressive symptoms. Anyway, I could just add 15mg of Remeron to my existing combo and see what happens, I can always ditch Zoloft later, what do you think?It sounds like a reasonable plan to me. I'm sorry the Lamictal didn't help more consistently. Yours is not an unusual story, though. As far as the tiredness is concerned, I don't know if it is a prognosticator of poor response or not. I guess it would have been nice to see what Lamictal + Wellbutrin would have done.
You've been on a lot of stuff. It is easy to conclude that nothing will ever work, except that you know that something already has. You might be a responder to a triple-uptake inhibitor with or without Wellbutrin. These drugs are still a few years away. In the meantime, you can try to construct the best response possible to use as a bridge until some of these newer treatments come to market. You know, it is too bad that we will probably never see another SSRI or SNRI developed for clinical use. There are people who achieve remission on one SSRI and not another. The same seems to be true of Effexor versus Cymbalta. I don't see how it hurts to have a few more weapons available in the armamentarium. It is like the advantages conferred upon the community to having a plethora of available antibiotics. Of course, one can debate the possible overuse of both antidepressants and antibiotics, but that is a separate question.
At what point would you consider an MAOI?
- Scott
Posted by tensor on January 3, 2007, at 15:57:29
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » tensor, posted by SLS on January 3, 2007, at 15:38:41
>I guess it would have been nice to see what Lamictal + Wellbutrin would have done.
I agree, but both Lamictal and Wellbutrin sedates me, I wish Wellbutrin was a little more activating. Perhaps in synergy with Remeron.
There are some interesting meds on the horizon, and as you said, meanwhile try to make the best of the available meds. I have not given MAOI a serious thought yet. I feel somehowe that one way or another I will find a combo that works, I have always done in the past. That is not really the whole problem, it is also that they stop working after 1-2years and then I stay depressed for a half year. It's like something (a gland?) is exhausted and needs some time to recover.
The contrast between depression and euthymia is huge for me, there's almost no gray zone. I'm either very depressed or fully functional.>You know, it is too bad that we will probably never see another SSRI or SNRI developed for clinical use
We can really only judge that when we have seen what the new meds can do for us.
/Mattias
Posted by SLS on January 3, 2007, at 20:37:30
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » SLS, posted by tensor on January 3, 2007, at 15:57:29
> Wellbutrin sedates me,
Interesting.
> I wish Wellbutrin was a little more activating. Perhaps in synergy with Remeron.
I would go into it with a certain degree of optimism. I usually do. I can usually find some reasonable rationale for why the possibility exists for success, even if it is simply for the fact that failure cannot be guaranteed. Diffent is different. I find that there is sufficient uncertainty to be found in new treatments to evoke some hopefulness.
> The contrast between depression and euthymia is huge for me, there's almost no gray zone. I'm either very depressed or fully functional.
That's the way I was when I was an ultra-rapid cycler. The observation of such a dramatic and punctuated difference helps to reinforce the biological nature of many cases of affective disorder.
> > You know, it is too bad that we will probably never see another SSRI or SNRI developed for clinical use
> We can really only judge that when we have seen what the new meds can do for us.
True. Because of my history, though, I am always looking out for the atypical case that might need somewhat esoteric drugs that are not first or second line choices.
If there is any negative consequence to the present condition of the pharmaceutical industry and its regulation by the FDA, it is that fewer and fewer antidepressants are coming to market. I still prefer to see more rather than less.
- Scott
Posted by Karen44 on January 3, 2007, at 21:51:22
In reply to Has anyone here had a remssion for long?, posted by linkadge on January 2, 2007, at 14:02:39
I went for 15 years without depression, part of the time on Parnate and later no meds.
Karen44
Posted by mindevolution on January 3, 2007, at 23:56:02
In reply to Please be civil » mindevolution, posted by ClearSkies on January 3, 2007, at 9:28:41
>
> > the only cure for MENTAL illness is mental therapy. mental illness in in the mind not the brain, otherwise it would be called a disease like alzeihmer's or parkinsons.
>
> Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please don’t post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
>
> If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Dr. Bob is always free to override or upgrade deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
>
> ClearSkies, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
>
>sorry CS, I guess what I said was a little strong and perhaps could have been expressed in a more eloquent manner. I am glad that no one took it the wrong way, or at least I don't think so, and how to get permanent remission from mental illness is a relevant, interesting and valuable topic for babblers i think, and it is good to get different views on how to do this.
people's views change all the time, i know mine has from having a discussion with linkadge, and without my contributions perhaps it wouldn't have been as interesting?
anyway i didn't and i don't mean to offend in an uncivilised manner, just found the topic good for challenging my current view on the issue.:)
ME
Posted by mindevolution on January 4, 2007, at 0:48:59
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long?, posted by linkadge on January 3, 2007, at 11:24:03
> >sure, but I said you can't cure or prevent >mental illness with drugs. thyroid problems, >cancers, viruses, etc can all cause mental >illness symptoms, but they have a physical cause >and therefore and not considered mental >illnesses, well at least that's how I understand >it. :)
>
> I've heard this kind of logic before, but never understood it. Perhaps the words "mental illness" should not be used for many of the cases presented here. We have decades of research showing that there are real, physical abnormalities in the brains of many patients with "mental illness". So call it what you like, but for many, there could be something pysically wrong.ok i understand what you mean, there seems to be a lot of people that can't be cured by therapy, and the drugs work for them, so by deduction it must be biological, but science can't yet prove it to be biological yet meaning mental illness sort of defines illnesses of the mind as well as unknown, or as yet undefined diseases or abnormalities of the brain. it is a tricky area. from my reading parkinson's and alzeihmer's were mental illnesses until the pathology was eventually discovered.
> >why don't they force mental illness patients to >have therapy as a front line treatment and then >if that fails hit the meds????
>
> Perhaps thats true.
>
> My arguement is that *despite* the fact that there is no proof that current drugs fix any underlingy biochemical problem, there may actually indeed be a underlying biochemical problem.
yup.
>
> >but even anti depressants cause an antipsychotic >side effect of akathisia which increases suicide >potential, they even put warnings on ssris and >snris.
>
> Well there are warnings that benydryl can cause psychosis, but that doesn't mean that all things taken into consideration, it is not appropriate for some people.
true
>
> >akathisia is generally linked to damage to the >cholinergic system in particular (bad damage = >Alzeimers), nerve toxins such as vx or sarin gas >or pesticides kill via damaging the cholinergic >system. with less damage it shows up as >akathisia, insomnia, and anxiety.
>
> I agree with you. I believe that potential exists. However, some people are much more susceptable to drug induced akathesia than others. Furthehrmore, I don't know if the evidence exists that these drugs are highly neurotoxic in the absence of signific adverse events.I know they save lives too! so the question is which AD is least toxic out of MAO, Tri and SSRI, SNRIs? and an accompanying question is are the latest drugs always the safest for the patient? and do you think all doctors prescribe the safest ones first or do the drug companies oversell the benefits of new drugs to get a return? and then what about the fda's role. interesting but difficult issues... prolly offtopic now.
>
>
> >so starting on an antidepressant may lead to >suicide or physical damage to the cholinergic >system creating a physicl disease in the patient >in the form of physically based chronic anxiety, >and once physical damage is incurred, the >patient is no longer able to make as high a >level recovery.
>
> Thats one possability. There is data painting a slightly different picture however. For instance, depression has properties of a degeneritive illness. The more episodes a person has, the more likely the illness is to return, and with greater sevarity. There is some evidence that if depression can be brought to remission early enough, the lifetime inscidence relapse is reduced. Suicide is only a possable side effect, and so is toxicity.
>
I hadn't thought about it like that... I see what you mean about depression being a toxic state in itself. :)> Don't get me wrong, I am all for better drugs. If deprenyl were a better antidepressant, then that would be a prototype of how patients should be treated. Tianeptine is also highly neuroprotective.
I'm with you bring on the safest best drugs!
>
> >also they may trigger mania requiring >antipsychotics and before you know it the >patient is on a one way path to severe disease >and illness.
>
> I agree these are possabilities.
>
> >i still think that many can benefit from the >drugs, and i am in no way anti-drugs in any way >shape or form, I just think due to the risks >they should be seen as second line treatments, >if you know what i mean?
>
> I agree that treatment protocol should start with the safest.
>
> >thumbs up, therapy can cure, but doesn't work >for everyone. but those that get cured with >therapy make a complete recoveries of the >highest level. so that's why i think it should >be front line rather than forcing drugs on >people.
>
> People simply need to be better informed. Thats what pages like this are all about. When I was in remission, it was with a small dose of antidepressant, a lot of alternative therapies etc.yep, i think it is a good discussion, shame I offended the admins :(
>
>
> >sure, but it is impossible to separate those >with things like pathological depression from >depression from choosing the wrong wife or the >wrong job, or childhood issues, etc. can't we >try everyone on therapy first then send those >that still have problems to get some meds?
>
> I woudn't say it is impossable. Situations depression may responds to therapy, lifestyle changes, etc, wherase other forms of depression may not.
>
> There are two prototype cases:
>
> Case 1:
>
> Patient takes all the pills right up to ECT, and is still depressed when simply getting a different job would clear the depression right up.
>
> Case 2:
>
> Patent wracks his mind on a daily basis for the key to his depression. He questions everything in his life. He changes jobs, leaves the house, gets remaried, tries being gay, quits drinking, joins a church, becomes a missionary, gives all his money to the poor, exercises, eats right, gets better friends, becomes a pastor, vaulneteers regularly, gets excorcised, attends Benny Hinn, steps over the cracks, wins the lottery, becomes a movie star, becomes a monk, medates 24/7, practices deep breaking, yoga, aromatherapy, acupuncture, bathing in oatmeal, goes on long vaccations, fufulls his dreams, climbs mount everest, but yet still feels like sh*t all the time.good points, made it clear.
>
> >by sending them all to meds introduces >unnecessary disease in many patients that could >have otherwise made a full recovery.
>
> Don't categorize all treatments as a whole. For instance, I would think that Tianeptine is much safer than high doses of thorazine. Maybe we'll learn more about it as time progresses. But sometimes time does more to uncover the safety and utility of a med. Ie, life extending properties of deprenyl?true
>
> >I don't know enough about epilepsy to be able to >comment, is it a mental illness or a physical >disease?
>
> Thats what I am trying to say. Some things that are classified as mental illness ARE phyiscal disease. Neural functioning and psychologial state of mind are inseperable. Mind is matter.yup, i can see that it is a blurred line, which is why i think talking about it helps people understand their situation.
>
> It doesn't matter what the term implies, lets just focus on what the disease is.just to throw in another point, i actually met a guy who found antipsychotics worked for him!
>
>
> LinkadgeME
Posted by tensor on January 4, 2007, at 7:07:38
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » tensor, posted by SLS on January 3, 2007, at 20:37:30
>even if it is simply for the fact that failure cannot be guaranteed.
I like that one.
>The observation of such a dramatic and punctuated difference helps to reinforce the biological nature of many cases of affective disorder.
I agree with that, hard to explain psychologically if there's no trigger.
>I still prefer to see more rather than less.
Absolutely.
/Mattias
Posted by ClearSkies on January 4, 2007, at 11:34:43
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by mindevolution on January 3, 2007, at 23:56:02
Posted by Ibo Gaine on January 5, 2007, at 13:33:59
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remssion for long? » SLS, posted by tensor on January 3, 2007, at 7:28:03
Wow, all of these drugs and stuff.
I have known people with serious clinical depressions and heavy drug problems get there lives back together in a very short time with Iboga or Ibogaine HCL.
It is now being considered in and used privately for cancer and Aids.
After Iboga therapy, no drugs where needed and no cravings for drugs remain. Sometimes for up to two years.
I have just hit the 11 month mark, with no depression and no cravings.
Funny how the experts always made me ill with the newest drug on the market.
I look back at my life and going to the doctor and taking the pills, and all the pain I went through, even though I thought I felt better was only an illusion. A chemical one. I thought that that was all there was for me. All the help there was.
I am so so glad that they where all wrong.
I am not liked by the agencies anymore as I took my own life into my own hands and stopped being a meal ticket for my doctor and the mental health services.
Besides all the different chemical states that we get into, it all boils down to FEAR.
Feelings exaggerated appearing real.
Conquer ones fears and you should never be ill again.
We get programmed by so much rubbish and believe that other people know better than we do, that we believe it.
Surely that's why we go to see are doctor. Co's we think he knows more than us.
Sorry folks he is only selling pills for the drug companies.
Iboga is a one off hit to Nirvana.
Drug companies cannot make millions of dollars out of a one off hit. That's why Iboga is illegal in the USA.
Cos it would cave in the pharma companies and put all the so called professionals out of work.
Truth folks.
The truth will set you free from the slavery of keeping another man in a job.
Think about it.
Love and Light. Ibo'
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 7, 2007, at 0:33:05
In reply to Re: Has anyone here had a remission for long?, posted by Ibo Gaine on January 5, 2007, at 13:33:59
> I have known people with serious clinical depressions and heavy drug problems get there lives back together in a very short time with Iboga or Ibogaine HCL.
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding Ibogaine to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20061218/msgs/720058.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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