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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 10:21:42
caffine works differently than other stimulants. Is there a cross tollerance between the two? Can one rotate caffine with other stimulants to reduce tollerance to either one ?
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on December 31, 2006, at 10:26:44
In reply to caffine/stimulant cross tollerance?, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 10:21:42
Link how I miss coffee. No caffeine with anxiety though unfortunately.Love Phillipa
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 11:38:54
In reply to caffine/stimulant cross tollerance?, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 10:21:42
I've wondered about this too, and asked my doctor about it once. Though I can't remember how I phrased my question, the response was politely dismissive, that as you know, they don't work anything alike. Also that if tolerance to a stimulant is developing (or to caffeine) the best way around it is to take a break. I've lost tolerance to both caffeine and prescription stimulants this way, and the break for prescription stimulants need not be very long. (Tolerance to caffeine doesn't seem to be such a concern of mine- though I definately am not as interested in it when using a prescription agent.) Since caffeine just isn't nearly as stimulating as a prescription stimulant, I've started wondering if provigil might be a good substitute during breaks?Tolerance developes to prescription stimulants largely due to brain's own dopamine being exhausted? (Surely I must be over-simplifying.) I wonder what are some good ways to replenish stores quicker and more effectively. Fish oil? Vitamins?
Posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 11:42:55
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 11:38:54
I wish there were a pure dopamine reuptake inhibitor avail for attention problems. Even ritalin still has effect on neurotransmitter release, perhaps hastening poopout/tollerance.
Linkadge
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 11:48:36
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance?, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 11:42:55
Is it your impression that ritalin poops out quicker than other prescription stimulants then? (I'm still undecided.)
> I wish there were a pure dopamine reuptake inhibitor avail for attention problems. Even ritalin still has effect on neurotransmitter release, perhaps hastening poopout/tollerance.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 13:10:24
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 11:48:36
I have heard that it poops out less. I used it consistantly for a while without too much tollerance. I built tollerance to dexedrine fairly quickly.
I was under the impression (though I could be wrong) that ritalin was a stronger uptake inhibitor than monoamine releaser (in comparison to other stimulants)
Linkadge
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 13:33:54
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance?, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 13:10:24
Well, that's interesting. I've been using adderall for only a month, and I could swear I already am developing some tolerance. Though I've wondered if that could be related to the fact I'd previously used ritalin for a couple of years? After a long while, I ended up developing considerable tolerance to it, pretty easily. On the other hand, I've only got 10mg of adderall per day, and that's not a very large dose at all. I was most recently using about 20mg ritalin per day. I've never seen an equivalency chart like the ones that exist for benzos.
> I have heard that it poops out less. I used it consistantly for a while without too much tollerance. I built tollerance to dexedrine fairly quickly.
>
> I was under the impression (though I could be wrong) that ritalin was a stronger uptake inhibitor than monoamine releaser (in comparison to other stimulants)
>
>
> Linkadge
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 16:15:50
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 13:33:54
Do any of the following ever just konk out, not to work again despite breaks?:amphetamines
ritalin
caffeine
Posted by ed_uk on December 31, 2006, at 16:19:31
In reply to do they ever just konk out?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 16:15:50
I think caffeine has pretty much konked - not that it ever did me much good in the first place.
Ed
Posted by Tomatheus on December 31, 2006, at 16:25:27
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance?, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 13:10:24
> I was under the impression (though I could be wrong) that ritalin was a stronger uptake inhibitor than monoamine releaser (in comparison to other stimulants)
Linkadge,
Do you happen to know which stimulants tend to be the strongest when it comes to monoamine release?
Just wondering.
Tomatheus
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 16:32:09
In reply to Re: do they ever just konk out? » laima, posted by ed_uk on December 31, 2006, at 16:19:31
I think caffeine has forever konked out, for the most part, for me too.Another reason I am concerned is that I've never ever been able to reproduce the nearly euphoric effects that I got from ritalin during the first few weeks I used it. That's fine and fair enough- but something in my brain must've changed, and I don't like that. In fact, I find it alarming. (Unless it was all psychological excitement that induced the initial euphoriaish response.)
Posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 16:44:26
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance? » linkadge, posted by Tomatheus on December 31, 2006, at 16:25:27
That I would like to know.
I don't know of any literature where the relative actions are compared.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 16:46:50
In reply to Re: do they ever just konk out?, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 16:32:09
I think that a long enough break will reverse tollerance to almost anything.
Your brain uses endogenius amphetamine like substances for various signalling. If you became completely tollerant to stimulants forever, then you would likely become tollerant to endogenius amphetamines which would mean you would likely be very behaviorally depressed.
Linkadge
Posted by Tomatheus on December 31, 2006, at 16:57:27
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance? » Tomatheus, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 16:44:26
Ok. Thanks for your response.
Tomatheus
P.S. Anyone else know?
> That I would like to know.
>
> I don't know of any literature where the relative actions are compared.
>
> Linkadge
Posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 17:35:39
In reply to Re: do they ever just konk out?, posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 16:46:50
Uh oh- could that have anything to do with why I'm so lethargic and lazy? What do you mean by "very behaviorly depressed"?> I think that a long enough break will reverse tollerance to almost anything.
>
> Your brain uses endogenius amphetamine like substances for various signalling. If you became completely tollerant to stimulants forever, then you would likely become tollerant to endogenius amphetamines which would mean you would likely be very behaviorally depressed.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
Posted by linkadge on December 31, 2006, at 20:06:11
In reply to Re: do they ever just konk out? » linkadge, posted by laima on December 31, 2006, at 17:35:39
I really don't know what I am talking about, but I would suspect that as long as the drug hasn't done any damage, that catecholamine restores would eventually return, at which point a stimulant would likely have an effect again.
Persistant lethargy in the absence of stimulant use could be a symtpom of many things.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on January 1, 2007, at 4:30:26
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance? » linkadge, posted by Tomatheus on December 31, 2006, at 16:25:27
Hi
>Do you happen to know which stimulants tend to be the strongest when it comes to monoamine release?
AFAIK, amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine) and methamphetamine.
Regards
Ed
Posted by laima on January 1, 2007, at 9:21:51
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance? » Tomatheus, posted by ed_uk on January 1, 2007, at 4:30:26
So- does this mean that these substances are more depleteing or least depleteing?
> Hi
>
> >Do you happen to know which stimulants tend to be the strongest when it comes to monoamine release?
>
> AFAIK, amphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine) and methamphetamine.
>
> Regards
>
> Ed
Posted by ed_uk on January 1, 2007, at 10:57:13
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance? » ed_uk, posted by laima on January 1, 2007, at 9:21:51
Hi L
>So- does this mean that these substances are more depleteing or least depleteing?
I think Linkadge suggested that amphetamines might be more likely to be associated with the development of tolerance than methylphenidate - which is predominantly a reuptake inhibitor. I'm not sure whether this is true though.
Regards
Ed
Posted by laima on January 1, 2007, at 11:08:16
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance? » laima, posted by ed_uk on January 1, 2007, at 10:57:13
Thanks.I had no idea ritalin worked THAT differently from amphetamines. It almost makes it sound like there wouldn't be much cross-tolerance, but I think there could be. But I haven't used adderall very long, so I really am not sure.
> Hi L
>
> >So- does this mean that these substances are more depleteing or least depleteing?
>
> I think Linkadge suggested that amphetamines might be more likely to be associated with the development of tolerance than methylphenidate - which is predominantly a reuptake inhibitor. I'm not sure whether this is true though.
>
> Regards
>
> Ed
Posted by tessellated on January 5, 2007, at 17:44:50
In reply to Re: caffine/stimulant cross tollerance?, posted by laima on January 1, 2007, at 11:08:16
i understood ritalin to be closer to a slower acting form of cocaine rather than amphetamine in that it worked as a reuptake inhibitor rather than causing the release of NT's...
additionally i was once told that the dopaminergic system; involved in motivation/drive/emotion-the mesocortical and limbic system, was the most rapidly self regulating of the monoamines.
this makes laymen sense due merely to the fact that without motivation and drive, reproduction and the continuation of our DNA, amongst other forms of ambition would cease in importance.
kinda sick how nature disfavors contentment...eh?
seems like this knowledge is gonna change every month:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Mechanism_of_actioni know that theophylline found in tea, is by weight less potent, but more potent in binding action. i get a longer smoother curve from tea. theophylline is used medically.
a green tea/ginko/ginsing tea tastes pretty good and can jack me real good!
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