![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 62 to 86 of 86. Go back in thread:
Posted by CrimsonVik on December 21, 2006, at 19:28:53
In reply to Re: Emsam enhancement/Helpful suggestions, posted by laima on December 21, 2006, at 19:14:57
He gave me Cytomel for thyroid/depression, SG. Dr. said I could NOT take Wellbutrin with an MAOI. It possibly would be harmless but I'm scared of that combo.
V.
Posted by laima on December 21, 2006, at 19:34:25
In reply to Re: Emsam enhancement/Helpful suggestions, posted by CrimsonVik on December 21, 2006, at 19:28:53
I think wellbutrin + Maoi might cause seratonin syndrome!
I wouldn't risk it if I were you.> He gave me Cytomel for thyroid/depression, SG. Dr. said I could NOT take Wellbutrin with an MAOI. It possibly would be harmless but I'm scared of that combo.
> V.
Posted by laima on December 21, 2006, at 19:50:33
In reply to Re: Emsam enhancement/Helpful suggestions, posted by laima on December 21, 2006, at 19:14:57
I should clarify part of what I just posted- when I tried the 12 Emsam, it was because I still felt pretty un-ok and going downhill, so an increase seemed like a good thing to try. I believe I was using 15 mg ritalin per day at the time- might have been 20, but I can't remember. When I started the 12, immediately my blood pressure went way down, my pulse went way up- like 97! I was afraid to use the ritalin- and I had klonopin- but that didn't seem like a hot idea either. I didn't know what to do, and was pretty freaked out over what was happening. So I pulled of the patch and went to see the doctor the next day. He said that when the heart rate goes way up while blood pressure goes way down, that means the heart is working much harder to try to keep up. Not good. So, decrease of Emsam, elimination of ritalin, and start of klonopin withdrawal all at once. And why klonopin withdrawal- because we both agreed that after 4 years it probably wasn't doing much of anything for my anxiety, and probably contributing to both it and depression. At end of November, 10 mg ritalin reintroduced, and I felt better- but still blah, and quite discouraged. That's when I had the consultation with the other guy who had ideas about adderall. So now, just the Emsam 9 and the 10 mg adderall seems like the formula for me. I feel better than I have in a long while, my mood is greatly improved, and no more weird blood pressure or heart rate fluctuations. I'm not feeling jittery anymore, either, and I sleep much better. A lot of changes, rocky for a couple weeks-still not perfect- but overall much better and so worth it now.I haven't used wellutrin for over a year, and I had to let it flush out for awhile before starting any selegeline. Sorry if I wrote that in a confusing way.
> Do you know, when I tried the 12mg Emsam, my blood pressure absolutely tanked, so I had to go back to 9. (It was something like 92/61, even when I was moving around in the middle of the day! I felt pretty faint. I haven't felt any agitation from Emsam, as others have reported. In other words, as it was increased, I became more sluggish, to say the least.) With the 9, a grand total of 10 mg adderall per day is sufficient to keep my blood pressure at the low end of normal (in the neighborhood of 110/70 when moving around moderately), and it boosts my energy and mood as well as focus, etc. If I understand correctly what my doctor was saying and what I was reading, selegeline can somehow increase a stimulant's effects, so "less acts like more". Sounds like it could get dicey fast for someone with high blood pressure. Perhaps if your doctor wavers, you might offer to get a blood pressure reader and promise to monitor yourself? That would seem prudent anyway until you are very sure how you react. 10 mg adderall a day is a pretty low dose, I believe--but pretty effective with the Emsam. Interestingly, before I started using selegeline oral version, I was giving wellbutrin a fair trial, with the same doctor. I tried ritalin with it for awhile for ADD and sleepiness, but the combination left me pretty frazzled so it was stopped. Another interesting discovery is that my overall anxiety seems to have gone way down as I gave up klonopin and now added the adderall- go figure.
>
> > This is all very interesting and I thank you for your experiences with Ensam, selegiline and Adderall.
> >
> > I think, don't know for sure, that Ensam will be covered by insurance so I may not have to take Selegiline but I will print out your posts if I need to know equivalents. It sounds as though either 10 or 20 mg will be good starting point if I need to go there. I have taken Adderall in combination with Wellbutrin and Celexa and felt it helped with my symptoms of disorganization and lack of focus. When I stopped it I felt like it contributed to my downward spiral as I got more and more disorganized and eventually life seemed to get very overwhelming.
> >
> > My pdoc will say it is not allowed with Emsam but it may be helpful down the road. I also have suffered with hypotension, although recently it seemed more WNL.
> >
> > All of this information is very helpful. The 6 mg patch which I have been on for a month may not be enough since I'm starting to lose my energy level so perhaps I need an increase?
> >
> > Stargazer
>
>
Posted by CrimsonVik on December 21, 2006, at 19:55:30
In reply to Re: Emsam enhancement » CrimsonVik, posted by laima on December 21, 2006, at 13:33:40
I never felt like I had low bp on the 6 mg. patch. On oral 10 mg.dose Monday it was like 65/40 till it increased.
I wonder if it's safe to go from MAOI to MAOI. He gave me Nardil earlier and when I quit that he (Dr.) said to go straight to Selegiline...I napped, woke up, and the room was spinning. I could not get up. I've just always wondered afterward if there isn't a waiting period between MAOI'S, you know?
V.
Posted by stargazer on December 21, 2006, at 22:58:15
In reply to Re: Emsam enhancement/clarification of previous » laima, posted by laima on December 21, 2006, at 19:50:33
Laima,
It all just tells me there is no formula for figuring this stuff out. So much of what works is one doctor's suggestion and you willingtotry something,which I usually am as long as it's at tiny doses. I did resist when my psoc suggested the antipsychotics initially, but I eventually tried Risperdal, Zyprexa and seroquel. I thought if I took an AP, it meant I had psychosis, even though he said it had worked for some of his pts with TRD. Never felt they did much of anything though.
The effects of Emsam 6 mg are starting to fade so I'm wondering what to do next. My pdoc is away until 1/2/07 so I'll prob have to wait until then. It's not like with pills how you can just increase the dose on your own if you think you need a higher dose. That was something that I felt I could always do before seeing my pdoc. He trusted me to do that and I trusted myself to do it.
I have Adderall left but I don't think I should experiment with adding that, besides it's the 20 mg capsules, so I guess I'll wait to ask him about that. He may just want me to increase from 6 to 9 mg Emsam. Perhaps I'm just having a tired, sluggish couple of days, you can't feel good everyday, can you?
Do people that aren't depressed have mostly good, productive days or do they struggle with bad days on and off?
SG
Posted by laima on December 21, 2006, at 23:35:10
In reply to Re: Emsam enhancement » laima, posted by CrimsonVik on December 21, 2006, at 19:55:30
Wow, that's really low blood pressure! Is that when the room was spinning and you couldn't get up? I hope you are alright now.I didn't have so much of a problem on the oral selegeline, but perhaps because my dose was lower. Not sure why.
I thought there was a waiting period between MAOIs- I think someone just wrote on another thread that he experienced a reaction by switching MAOIs too quickly.
> I never felt like I had low bp on the 6 mg. patch. On oral 10 mg.dose Monday it was like 65/40 till it increased.
> I wonder if it's safe to go from MAOI to MAOI. He gave me Nardil earlier and when I quit that he (Dr.) said to go straight to Selegiline...I napped, woke up, and the room was spinning. I could not get up. I've just always wondered afterward if there isn't a waiting period between MAOI'S, you know?
> V.
Posted by laima on December 21, 2006, at 23:57:30
In reply to Re: Emsam enhancement/Helpful suggestions, posted by stargazer on December 21, 2006, at 22:58:15
It does seem that we all have different chemistries and different background "details" which affect how medications react and interact for us. Not as clean and simple as one might hope.
Definately, perhaps wait to see your doctor before experimenting with adderall lest you have a surprise reaction-over the holidays to make it even more dramatic. My personal unprofessional guess is that 20 mg adderall, all at one go, with Emsam, would be way, way too much.I do believe that even non-depressed people have sluggish days and drearier days. It seems almost unrealistic and un-human to expect otherwise. That doesn't sound so nice to us, but I observe that my non-depressed friends take such days in better stride and don't seem to lose sight so easily as me that they're temporary. I'm a bit fascinated and envious over how they manage to do that. Winter in particular really seems to lend itself to sluggish dreariness for a lot of people I think- for example, I hear lots of people complaining that they want to "hibernate by 8 oclock" or about how many zillion cups of coffee they require. I also hear a lot of people complain about a day once in awhile when they just overslept and couldn't get anything accomplished, and yet I hunch they do not have a depression because they perk right back up and are overall active and engaged, etc. (Does anyone else think they can often spot others who have a mood disorder similar to their own?) Also, everyone is so excited when the days get longer. My overall conclusion is that people's moods and energy levels can dip here and there without being actual depression-I think it's ok.
> Laima,
>
> It all just tells me there is no formula for figuring this stuff out. So much of what works is one doctor's suggestion and you willingtotry something,which I usually am as long as it's at tiny doses. I did resist when my psoc suggested the antipsychotics initially, but I eventually tried Risperdal, Zyprexa and seroquel. I thought if I took an AP, it meant I had psychosis, even though he said it had worked for some of his pts with TRD. Never felt they did much of anything though.
>
> The effects of Emsam 6 mg are starting to fade so I'm wondering what to do next. My pdoc is away until 1/2/07 so I'll prob have to wait until then. It's not like with pills how you can just increase the dose on your own if you think you need a higher dose. That was something that I felt I could always do before seeing my pdoc. He trusted me to do that and I trusted myself to do it.
>
> I have Adderall left but I don't think I should experiment with adding that, besides it's the 20 mg capsules, so I guess I'll wait to ask him about that. He may just want me to increase from 6 to 9 mg Emsam. Perhaps I'm just having a tired, sluggish couple of days, you can't feel good everyday, can you?
>
> Do people that aren't depressed have mostly good, productive days or do they struggle with bad days on and off?
>
> SG
Posted by CrimsonVik on December 22, 2006, at 1:31:09
In reply to Re: Emsam enhancement » CrimsonVik, posted by laima on December 21, 2006, at 23:35:10
>
No, the spinning was around 3 weeks ago - the day I went from Nardil to Selegiline. God only knows what my BP was then!
V.> Wow, that's really low blood pressure! Is that when the room was spinning and you couldn't get up? I hope you are alright now.
>
> I didn't have so much of a problem on the oral selegeline, but perhaps because my dose was lower. Not sure why.
>
> I thought there was a waiting period between MAOIs- I think someone just wrote on another thread that he experienced a reaction by switching MAOIs too quickly.
>
>
> > I never felt like I had low bp on the 6 mg. patch. On oral 10 mg.dose Monday it was like 65/40 till it increased.
> > I wonder if it's safe to go from MAOI to MAOI. He gave me Nardil earlier and when I quit that he (Dr.) said to go straight to Selegiline...I napped, woke up, and the room was spinning. I could not get up. I've just always wondered afterward if there isn't a waiting period between MAOI'S, you know?
> > V.
>
>
Posted by RN320 on December 22, 2006, at 2:04:15
In reply to Re: Emsam enhancement/Helpful suggestions, posted by stargazer on December 21, 2006, at 22:58:15
Stargazer-
What I found with EMSAM dosing is that I definitely plateaued (or maybe a slight decrease in effectiveness) after about 5-6 weeks at 6mg. I started with it during the first week of June.) My pdoc pushed it to 9mg then and I was on that dose for maybe 2 months and did better. I didn't notice any decrease in effectiveness while I was on the 9mg patch. My pdoc thought that I could do even better at the highest dose, so in September we decided to go to the 12 mg and I'm still there and it's definitely improved my function (and even mood more than I had gotten early on). I haven't noticed any decrease in effectiveness since September, so this dose seems to have held me so far. My pdoc had to change me over from seroquel to trazadone for sleep, and it's working really well. He says that he may try Provigil after the holidays for enhanced effect for the trazadone/EMSAM combination. Anyway, this is how it's worked for me.
Good Luck and Happy Holidays.
/m
Posted by Karen44 on December 22, 2006, at 2:19:05
In reply to Emsam Users, length of time, effects,pros/cons?, posted by stargazer on December 13, 2006, at 9:10:19
Just started Ensam. Has anyone had a side effect of nausea from Ensam, or might this nausea be due to something else? I just had hand/thumb surgery a little over a week ago and still take Vicodin at night due to pain waking me up.
Karen44
Posted by laima on December 22, 2006, at 10:14:14
In reply to Re: Emsam Users, length of time, effects,pros/cons?, posted by Karen44 on December 22, 2006, at 2:19:05
Is vicodin an opiate painkiller? If it is, maybe it's interacting with Emsam?> Just started Ensam. Has anyone had a side effect of nausea from Ensam, or might this nausea be due to something else? I just had hand/thumb surgery a little over a week ago and still take Vicodin at night due to pain waking me up.
>
> Karen44
Posted by Karen44 on December 22, 2006, at 10:48:52
In reply to Re: Emsam Users, length of time, effects,pros/cons? » Karen44, posted by laima on December 22, 2006, at 10:14:14
> I am not sure if vicodin is an opiate painkiller, but I did ask my pdoc about starting to use the patch while still using the vicodin. He said it would be okay, that the only thing was that the effects of the vicodin might be potentiated.
I want the Emsam to work as this is the end of the line for me. I have tried everything including Parnate which used to work years ago and no longer does. I have had so many bad side effects and/or allergic reactions to everything other than MAOI's, even at low doses, that I don't want to have to stop the Emsam. No Vicodin this a.m. and still feeling a bit nauseous plus sweating like crazy. I will see how it goes the rest of the day.
Karen44
> Is vicodin an opiate painkiller? If it is, maybe it's interacting with Emsam?
>
> > Just started Ensam. Has anyone had a side effect of nausea from Ensam, or might this nausea be due to something else? I just had hand/thumb surgery a little over a week ago and still take Vicodin at night due to pain waking me up.
> >
> > Karen44
>
>
Posted by laima on December 22, 2006, at 11:25:32
In reply to Re: Emsam Users, length of time, effects,pros/cons? » laima, posted by Karen44 on December 22, 2006, at 10:48:52
Karen,You're sweating too? That doesn't sound good, I do wonder if you might not be experiencing a drug interaction. I had thought vicodin was an official no-no with Emsam, though based on what your doctor said, perhaps it's a "no-no" the way "MAOI plus stimulant" is an official no-no. (In other words, murky and not exactly always true.)
Is your pain such that it would be possible for you to stay away from vicodin and try substituting something more noncontroversially benign (Maoi-wise) like ibuprofin? I just don't think sweating is an Emsam side effect, and hope you are able to use it, and that it works out, everything safe.
Good luck.
> > I am not sure if vicodin is an opiate painkiller, but I did ask my pdoc about starting to use the patch while still using the vicodin. He said it would be okay, that the only thing was that the effects of the vicodin might be potentiated.
>
> I want the Emsam to work as this is the end of the line for me. I have tried everything including Parnate which used to work years ago and no longer does. I have had so many bad side effects and/or allergic reactions to everything other than MAOI's, even at low doses, that I don't want to have to stop the Emsam. No Vicodin this a.m. and still feeling a bit nauseous plus sweating like crazy. I will see how it goes the rest of the day.
>
> Karen44
> > Is vicodin an opiate painkiller? If it is, maybe it's interacting with Emsam?
> >
> > > Just started Ensam. Has anyone had a side effect of nausea from Ensam, or might this nausea be due to something else? I just had hand/thumb surgery a little over a week ago and still take Vicodin at night due to pain waking me up.
> > >
> > > Karen44
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Karen44 on December 22, 2006, at 11:47:56
In reply to Re: Emsam Users, length of time, effects,pros/cons?, posted by laima on December 22, 2006, at 11:25:32
Thanks. I am going to try to not use any Vicodin today no matter the pain and instead go back to taking my a.m. Neurotin. I want the Emsam to work as the last resort will loom on the horizon, ECT, and I really don't want to go down that road as I am still working at a job that requires me to have not only very good verbal cognitive skills but also very good nonverbal cognitive skills. If this does not work I will ask to give Parnate a chance again as even though it did not work well as it did years ago, I think it helped some and at least helped me to not feel suicidal. That's something at least!
Karen44
Posted by shoshana on December 23, 2006, at 13:57:59
In reply to Emsam Users, length of time, effects,pros/cons?, posted by stargazer on December 13, 2006, at 9:10:19
I have been on the EMSAM 6mg/24 hour patch for almost 3 months. It has helped my mood and I have not had the weight gain and very severe memory problems that I have gotten on the SSRIs and SSNIs, although it has done nothing to help my anxiety. Also, in the last 2-3 weeks, I have begun to experience side-effects and wanted to share them. I am going to make an appointment to see my doctor, though, probably some of the side-effects could be controlled by watching what I eat (even though the patch at this level is not supposed to have dietary restrictions - I have noticed a reaction after I have had some of the things on the 'do not eat' list for those MAOIs of a higher dosage). Side-effects:
1) Head-rushes: I have to grab on to the wall/furniture sometimes to prevent myself from falling, when getting up from my bed or from a seated position.
2) Changes in blood pressure: I have always had very good blood pressure. Recently, when I started getting head-rushes, I checked and noticed that my average blood pressure has dropped around 30 points.
3) Acute insomnia: I cannot sleep more than 3 hours a night on my own. If I take Klonopin, Xanex, or Ambien, I get an extra 2 hours, at best.
4) Mild memory problems and problems concentrating: I think this may be caused by lack of sleep, though the symptoms seems to slowly be getting worse.
5) Hypersensitivity to light in the morning: when I go out of my house in the morning, I feel like the sky is painfully bright and it hurts my eyes.
6) Detection of a strange odor: I very often feel as if I'm smelling spoiled milk and can't get rid of the smell. It occurs when I'm in different places (at home, at work, at a store, etc), so I know it doesn't have anything to do with my housekeeping skills!
7) Extreme anxiety: Feels as if I'm having a very severe panic attack (which I'm not): I noticed that this happened the other day after I had one piece of imported chocolate. It can last for several days and is very unpleasant. I have tried to alleviate the feeling of anxiety by working out at the gym and it helps only slightly. Also, Xanex helped a little bit.
8) Difficulty doing simple math equations: For example, I used to be the person everyone turned to when figuring out the bill at a restaurant. Now I have problems calculating in my head and have stopped trying because it is too frustrating. This also may be caused by lack of sleep (?)
9) Involuntary muscle spasms: I had these when I was taking Cymbalta and they seem to have returned but they are less frequent and not as strong.
> Hi, just checking in to update my Emsam post for anyone interested.
>
> Duration: approx 1 month now.
>
> Effects:
> Positive: more motivation, decrease in anxiety, better focus, no dietary restrictions.
>
> Negative: patch falls off sometimes, cost (have samples now but not sure if my insurance will cover it, I will fight if they don't)
>
> I see my pdoc today and although I am feeling better than a few months ago, I don't really feel great. That is one of the problems with depression...being able to judge how you feel and knowing that you are getting some response or not.
>
> I'd like to keep posting and hear from others on Emsam.
>
> P.S. Still take 25 mg of seroquel to sleep prn.
>
> Stargazer
>
Posted by RN320 on December 23, 2006, at 14:54:15
In reply to Re: Emsam Users, length of time, effects,pros/cons? » stargazer, posted by shoshana on December 23, 2006, at 13:57:59
hi Shoshana-
I read your post with great interest. I'm now stabilized at the 12mg dose of EMSAM and doing really well. I can relate to a lot of the side effects that you're reporting.At the 6mg dose my anxiety went up a little. Any anxiety that i experience at 12mg is much more manageable and is only related to things like extreme personal stress or unfamiliar places and people. I do pretty well day-to-day now.
I had insomnia prior to the EMSAM, so i can't say that it caused it. I took seroquel for over a year to help with sleep, but although it is still effective to augment the EMSAM, it has ceased to be useful for insomnia- so my pdoc has put me on trazadone, and that is starting to work well for me. I'm now averaging 7-9 hours of sleep almost every day (vs. 1-3 hours per night for the month of November!).
I also have the major changes in blood pressure. I used to have hypertension, and I have some cardiac problems, so I'm sure that this all adds to the hypotensive effect of EMSAM. Because I get so orthostatic, I've had to train myself to get up verrrry slowly from bed in the morning. I actually sit with my legs dangling for at least 5 minutes....otherwise I have a pretty good chance of passing out. I also try to be really careful when I've been sitting for any longer than 15 minutes because going from sitting to standing can also cause me to pass out. My internist and pdoc are working together on this problem, and they are thinking about using a drug called Florinef or something like that, which helps to increase your BP.
My experience has been that it takes a long time for your body to acclimate to the initial drug and subsequent dose changes. It seems like most of these side effects could be manageable if you feel that you're getting really good results with the EMSAM and want to stay on it.
As far as the diet goes, even though my pdoc reiterated to me that I had no restrictions at the 6mg dose, I chose to implement them anyway. That was in June, so I'm pretty used to reading labels and avoiding any food that's moderate to high in tyramine now. After reading about your dietary experiences/reactions I think I'm glad that I chose to go the route I did.
Good luck to you, Shoshana. I hope you have a happy holiday.
/m
Posted by CrimsonVik on December 25, 2006, at 18:35:18
In reply to Re: Emsam enhancement/Helpful suggestions, posted by stargazer on December 21, 2006, at 17:43:27
I have been on Emsam 6 for 4 days since my hypotension scare. I'd rather had a higher mg. but that's what the Rx was for. I see Dr. this week.
SG, if you ask do you need to go up, you probably do.
Posted by stargazer on December 26, 2006, at 14:02:36
In reply to Re: Emsam enhancement/Helpful suggestions » stargazer, posted by CrimsonVik on December 25, 2006, at 18:35:18
Shoshana...
Reading the package insert, it says..."In 6 out of 7 clin studies conducted with Emsam at doses of 6 mg/24 h - 12 mg/24 h, patients were not limited to a modified diet typically associated with this class of compounds. Although NO hypertensive crisies were reported as part of the safety assessment, the liklihood of developing this reaction CANNOT be fully determined since the amount of tyramine typically consumed during the course of treatment is not known and BP was not continuously monitored..."
So If I were you I would buy a cuff and monitor my BP throughout the day especially with any symptoms suggesting a change in BP, i.e. sweating, lightheadedness, headache, etc. And if your BP is elevated with your ingestion of certain "restricted" foods, those have to be eliminated from your diet. Of course your pdoc should be informed of what is going on.
Stargazaer
Posted by Phillipa on December 26, 2006, at 17:50:31
In reply to Emsam/hypertension re: foods/Shoshana, posted by stargazer on December 26, 2006, at 14:02:36
Stargazer still doing really well? Missed you. Love Phillipa
Posted by stargazer on December 28, 2006, at 7:18:57
In reply to Re: Emsam Users, length of time, effects,pros/cons? » stargazer, posted by shoshana on December 23, 2006, at 13:57:59
Shoshana...Haven't heard from you after I wrote you the other day...are you OK?
One of your symptoms has me more concerned than the others,...the involuntary muscle movements...that sound like a drug interaction or something to that effect.
Are you on other meds besides Emsam?
Stargazer
Posted by shoshana on December 28, 2006, at 10:07:02
In reply to Shoshana? How are you feeling?, posted by stargazer on December 28, 2006, at 7:18:57
Stargazer, thank you for the helpful information the other day and for your concern. I am doing okay. I am not too worried about the twitching, as I have seen it listed somewhere as a side effect. I am not on anything else besides Emsam. My frustration is still with the foods - I just had a danish at work and there must have been something forbidden in it because my heart rate is up and I am feeling that awful anxious feeling I described earlier. (Note to self: no more danish!) I will buy a cuff as you suggested, keep track of what I'm eating, and I have an appointment to see my pdoc next week to talk about it.
Happy Holidays,
-Shoshana
> Shoshana...Haven't heard from you after I wrote you the other day...are you OK?
>
> One of your symptoms has me more concerned than the others,...the involuntary muscle movements...that sound like a drug interaction or something to that effect.
>
> Are you on other meds besides Emsam?
>
> Stargazer
Posted by gardenergirl on December 28, 2006, at 10:28:05
In reply to Re: Emsam Users, length of time, effects,pros/cons? » stargazer, posted by shoshana on December 23, 2006, at 13:57:59
> I am going to make an appointment to see my doctor, though, probably some of the side-effects could be controlled by watching what I eat (even though the patch at this level is not supposed to have dietary restrictions - I have noticed a reaction after I have had some of the things on the 'do not eat' list for those MAOIs of a higher dosage). Side-effects:
>
> 1) Head-rushes: I have to grab on to the wall/furniture sometimes to prevent myself from falling, when getting up from my bed or from a seated position.
> 2) Changes in blood pressure: I have always had very good blood pressure. Recently, when I started getting head-rushes, I checked and noticed that my average blood pressure has dropped around 30 points.These are both due to orthostatic hypotension, which RN320 described well above. Your blood pools in your legs when you are sitting or lying down, and when you get up you get dizzy and lightheaded since there is not enough blood up in your head yet. As RN320 said, getting up slowly and allowing your blood to adjust is the key to dealing with this. In mild cases, the main risk/problem with OH is the risk of falling or passing out and getting injured, so if you hang onto something and go slow, you can avoid problems. It's unpleasant though. In more severe cases, it can be a "deal-breaker" as far as the medication goes.
> 3) Acute insomnia: I cannot sleep more than 3 hours a night on my own. If I take Klonopin, Xanex, or Ambien, I get an extra 2 hours, at best.
I'm on Nardil not Emsam, so I can't speak to this directly. But with Nardil, the insomnia lessened in time, and I'm usually able to get a full night of sleep with Ambien.
> 4) Mild memory problems and problems concentrating: I think this may be caused by lack of sleep, though the symptoms seems to slowly be getting worse.You could be right about the lack of sleep, though it's worth talking to your doctor about.
> 5) Hypersensitivity to light in the morning: when I go out of my house in the morning, I feel like the sky is painfully bright and it hurts my eyes.
I have no idea about this one, though I experience it at times due to my light-colored eyes. It's awful when it happens.
> 6) Detection of a strange odor: I very often feel as if I'm smelling spoiled milk and can't get rid of the smell. It occurs when I'm in different places (at home, at work, at a store, etc), so I know it doesn't have anything to do with my housekeeping skills!
Ugh, how awful. If you were only experiencing this at home, I'd say check your ducts. I had a similar experience where I was smelling this foul odor all over the house, and I thought it was me at one point! It was an animal, probably a squirrel or chipmunk who had climbed into the heat ducts and died. Bleah. I hope this goes away soon.
> 7) Extreme anxiety: Feels as if I'm having a very severe panic attack (which I'm not): I noticed that this happened the other day after I had one piece of imported chocolate. It can last for several days and is very unpleasant. I have tried to alleviate the feeling of anxiety by working out at the gym and it helps only slightly. Also, Xanex helped a little bit.
I'd be surprised if any of the symptoms you describe are related to eating something with tyramine. The main reaction with tyramine is an increase in blood pressure, which usually results in a terrible headache and can lead to a hemorrhagic stroke. Nardil at 75 mg gave me akathisia and severe insomnia (probably related to the akathisia). I couldn't sit still and felt like I was jumping out of my skin. This felt similar to panic, though it was a more physical reaction. Could your experience be more like akathisia?
> 8) Difficulty doing simple math equations: For example, I used to be the person everyone turned to when figuring out the bill at a restaurant. Now I have problems calculating in my head and have stopped trying because it is too frustrating. This also may be caused by lack of sleep (?)
Again, I think I'd check with your doc, but lack of sleep definitely interferes with cognition.
> 9) Involuntary muscle spasms: I had these when I was taking Cymbalta and they seem to have returned but they are less frequent and not as strong.
Is this only at certain times? With Nardil I get myoclonic jerks at times--that whole body jerk associated with going to sleep. They get stronger with dosage decreases, actually. But I can get several in a row when I am first trying to get to sleep.
I hope your side effects resolve since Emsam is working for you. And hopefully you can find something to target anxiety as well. Good luck!
gg
Posted by CrimsonVik on December 28, 2006, at 11:41:46
In reply to Re: Shoshana? How are you feeling? » stargazer, posted by shoshana on December 28, 2006, at 10:07:02
ShoShana, I eat anything I want on the 6 mg. Patch. We are not supposed to have these problems on a 6 mg. patch.
Ask your Doctor. You need to get with him or her.Vicki
Posted by RN320 on December 28, 2006, at 18:24:53
In reply to Re: Emsam Users, length of time, effects,pros/cons » shoshana, posted by gardenergirl on December 28, 2006, at 10:28:05
> > I am going to make an appointment to see my doctor, though, probably some of the side-effects could be controlled by watching what I eat (even though the patch at this level is not supposed to have dietary restrictions - I have noticed a reaction after I have had some of the things on the 'do not eat' list for those MAOIs of a higher dosage). Side-effects:
> >
> > 1) Head-rushes: I have to grab on to the wall/furniture sometimes to prevent myself from falling, when getting up from my bed or from a seated position.
> > 2) Changes in blood pressure: I have always had very good blood pressure. Recently, when I started getting head-rushes, I checked and noticed that my average blood pressure has dropped around 30 points.
>
> These are both due to orthostatic hypotension, which RN320 described well above. Your blood pools in your legs when you are sitting or lying down, and when you get up you get dizzy and lightheaded since there is not enough blood up in your head yet. As RN320 said, getting up slowly and allowing your blood to adjust is the key to dealing with this. In mild cases, the main risk/problem with OH is the risk of falling or passing out and getting injured, so if you hang onto something and go slow, you can avoid problems. It's unpleasant though. In more severe cases, it can be a "deal-breaker" as far as the medication goes.
>
> > 3) Acute insomnia: I cannot sleep more than 3 hours a night on my own. If I take Klonopin, Xanex, or Ambien, I get an extra 2 hours, at best.
>
> I'm on Nardil not Emsam, so I can't speak to this directly. But with Nardil, the insomnia lessened in time, and I'm usually able to get a full night of sleep with Ambien.
>
> > 4) Mild memory problems and problems concentrating: I think this may be caused by lack of sleep, though the symptoms seems to slowly be getting worse.
>
> You could be right about the lack of sleep, though it's worth talking to your doctor about.
>
> > 5) Hypersensitivity to light in the morning: when I go out of my house in the morning, I feel like the sky is painfully bright and it hurts my eyes.
>
> I have no idea about this one, though I experience it at times due to my light-colored eyes. It's awful when it happens.
>
> > 6) Detection of a strange odor: I very often feel as if I'm smelling spoiled milk and can't get rid of the smell. It occurs when I'm in different places (at home, at work, at a store, etc), so I know it doesn't have anything to do with my housekeeping skills!
>
> Ugh, how awful. If you were only experiencing this at home, I'd say check your ducts. I had a similar experience where I was smelling this foul odor all over the house, and I thought it was me at one point! It was an animal, probably a squirrel or chipmunk who had climbed into the heat ducts and died. Bleah. I hope this goes away soon.
>
> > 7) Extreme anxiety: Feels as if I'm having a very severe panic attack (which I'm not): I noticed that this happened the other day after I had one piece of imported chocolate. It can last for several days and is very unpleasant. I have tried to alleviate the feeling of anxiety by working out at the gym and it helps only slightly. Also, Xanex helped a little bit.
>
> I'd be surprised if any of the symptoms you describe are related to eating something with tyramine. The main reaction with tyramine is an increase in blood pressure, which usually results in a terrible headache and can lead to a hemorrhagic stroke. Nardil at 75 mg gave me akathisia and severe insomnia (probably related to the akathisia). I couldn't sit still and felt like I was jumping out of my skin. This felt similar to panic, though it was a more physical reaction. Could your experience be more like akathisia?
>
> > 8) Difficulty doing simple math equations: For example, I used to be the person everyone turned to when figuring out the bill at a restaurant. Now I have problems calculating in my head and have stopped trying because it is too frustrating. This also may be caused by lack of sleep (?)
>
> Again, I think I'd check with your doc, but lack of sleep definitely interferes with cognition.
>
> > 9) Involuntary muscle spasms: I had these when I was taking Cymbalta and they seem to have returned but they are less frequent and not as strong.
>
> Is this only at certain times? With Nardil I get myoclonic jerks at times--that whole body jerk associated with going to sleep. They get stronger with dosage decreases, actually. But I can get several in a row when I am first trying to get to sleep.
>
> I hope your side effects resolve since Emsam is working for you. And hopefully you can find something to target anxiety as well. Good luck!
>
> gg
>
Hi Shoshana-
I agree with Garden Girl's post above. It doesn't sound like you're having a tyramine food reaction (aka "The Cheese Reaction"!) If it were the tyramine you'd have the opposite reaction. Your reactions to these foods is really interesting and if you never had them before the EMSAM, it's seems like it would be connected in some way. Sorry, but I have nothing scientific to offer as a possible explanation for this one.About your orthostatic hypotension- I can really relate. I thought that mine was pretty well controlled by changing the way that I do things (related to sitting, laying, rising and bending) but just last Friday I passed out when standing up from exercising on a recumbent stepper in cardiac rehab....I thought that I had sat up for long enough and was stabilized because I felt ok, so I got up .....and dropped like a rock. So they kind of kicked me out of rehab until my docs can figure out what they're going to do (internist and pdoc). I see them both tomorrow. Right now, they're considering 2 things for me- a drug called florinef which is used to raise blood pressure for people on drugs that create this very situation.
The other drug that is being considered in addition to florinef is provigil because I too am having cognitive difficulties (mine aren't attributed to the EMSAM, but to a new drug recently added for sleep- not really new, but new to me- trazadone. Trazadone can cause cognitive problems. (I had bad insomnia before emsam, and I don't think it's made it any worse- well maybe a little at the beginning- but I've always been on something for sleep since the onset of the depression. I got changed over to trazadone once the seroquel stopped working for me.) I am just starting to get caught up on some of the sleep I've needed since 6 weeks ago, and my pdoc is thinking that the sleep deprivation may well be adding to the cognitive problems.
Even though I hate the idea of adding any more drugs to my already long list, I will give any of this a try so that I can stay on the EMSAM since it's done so much for me.
You mention the anxiety factor.....I was very high anxiety when I started on EMSAM. In the early days at the 6mg dose I did experience an increase in anxiety. It is pretty much gone and even much reduced from pre-EMSAM days now that I'm at the 12mg dose. GG made a really good point about checking to see if your neuro spasms and what you're calling anxiety may be realted more to akasthisia. I think that's worth looking into.
About the "odor" that you're sensing... My understanding is that this can be from several different things. I had this briefly several years ago (way before EMSAM) and was told by both my pdoc and therapist that it's almost the same as the "aura" that people with epilepsy get prior to a seizure and they said that it has nothing to do with epilepsy, it's just stimulation to your brain that's similar. It is also sometimes referred to as a "sensory hallucination". It's been described as the odor of rotting flesh, rotting eggs and other really gross things! Mine went away all by itself. They still have no precise answer for me that spells out exactly why this happened, just that they have seen it in others who have atypical depression. I was told however, that it could be from lack of sleep, (as I've mentioned above it's a big problem for me when the meds quit working) since sleep deprivation can cause hallucinosis in anyone, but apparently us depressed folks are more sensitive to this type of hallucinosis. Anyway, that's what they told me.
I also have increased sensitivity to light. My eyes have always been somewhat sensitive because I have blue eyes, and that's common for "light colored eyes". It's not unbearable for me, but it's definitely increased since I've been on EMSAM.
I had some myoclonic jerking at bedtime myself a few months ago. It was happening frequenlty- sometimes twice a night and I was even biting my tongue sometimes. It's been gone now almost entirely for probably 2 months. (I went up to 12 mgs EMSAM in September, I think). It's really unpleasant, and klonopin only worked for me in huge doses (like 15-20mg) and I wanted no part of that. Be sure to watch for some any signs of TD.
My heart is with you on this one. I know how nice it is to find something that really helps you feel better. The qualtiy of my life has been so improved by EMSAM that I'd do just about anything to stay on it. I sincerely hope that you're able to work around these difficulties and continue to feel better. Happy New year, Shoshana
/m
Posted by shoshana on December 28, 2006, at 20:50:59
In reply to Re: Emsam Users, length of time, effects,pros/cons, posted by RN320 on December 28, 2006, at 18:24:53
Dear Garden Girl, RN320, and Vicki,
Thank you for your replies. RN320 - I'm sorry to hear that you passed out - I hope that the florinef will be of help with this and that the provigil will help with your cognitive issues.
Re: akathisia - my doctor has never used this term with me and I was not familiar with it but I just looked it up. The sensation that I feel is very physical, so it is possible that it is akathisia that I am experiencing. It feels like my heart is pounding and adrenaline is pumping at a high rate through my veins and will not stop. I have never had any food sensitivities of this type before, so I believe that it must somehow be associated with the Emsam. I'm glad to know that it doesn't sound at all like a tyramine reaction.
As to my muscle twitching, I notice it mostly when I'm lying down. It is pretty mild but I will still keep an eye on it.
The information on the 'sensory hallucinations' is interesting. It's good to know that this is a known issue with some people and interesting to learn that those who experience depression are more sensitive to it. When I first started smelling the foul odor, I went crazy trying to clean everything and sprayed lysol everywhere but to no avail. When I noticed that I was smelling it in various other places, I realized that it must be in my head, rather than in my environment. It's a pretty gross smell (I think I'll continue to think of it as 'spoiled milk' as opposed to 'rotting flesh'!) In any case, I don't experience it all of the time and in the scheme of things, it is bearable.Thanks again for everyone's input. I'm so happy to have discovered such a supportive community here.
Wishing one and all a very happy New Year.
-Shoshana
> > > I am going to make an appointment to see my doctor, though, probably some of the side-effects could be controlled by watching what I eat (even though the patch at this level is not supposed to have dietary restrictions - I have noticed a reaction after I have had some of the things on the 'do not eat' list for those MAOIs of a higher dosage). Side-effects:
> > >
> > > 1) Head-rushes: I have to grab on to the wall/furniture sometimes to prevent myself from falling, when getting up from my bed or from a seated position.
> > > 2) Changes in blood pressure: I have always had very good blood pressure. Recently, when I started getting head-rushes, I checked and noticed that my average blood pressure has dropped around 30 points.
> >
> > These are both due to orthostatic hypotension, which RN320 described well above. Your blood pools in your legs when you are sitting or lying down, and when you get up you get dizzy and lightheaded since there is not enough blood up in your head yet. As RN320 said, getting up slowly and allowing your blood to adjust is the key to dealing with this. In mild cases, the main risk/problem with OH is the risk of falling or passing out and getting injured, so if you hang onto something and go slow, you can avoid problems. It's unpleasant though. In more severe cases, it can be a "deal-breaker" as far as the medication goes.
> >
> > > 3) Acute insomnia: I cannot sleep more than 3 hours a night on my own. If I take Klonopin, Xanex, or Ambien, I get an extra 2 hours, at best.
> >
> > I'm on Nardil not Emsam, so I can't speak to this directly. But with Nardil, the insomnia lessened in time, and I'm usually able to get a full night of sleep with Ambien.
> >
> > > 4) Mild memory problems and problems concentrating: I think this may be caused by lack of sleep, though the symptoms seems to slowly be getting worse.
> >
> > You could be right about the lack of sleep, though it's worth talking to your doctor about.
> >
> > > 5) Hypersensitivity to light in the morning: when I go out of my house in the morning, I feel like the sky is painfully bright and it hurts my eyes.
> >
> > I have no idea about this one, though I experience it at times due to my light-colored eyes. It's awful when it happens.
> >
> > > 6) Detection of a strange odor: I very often feel as if I'm smelling spoiled milk and can't get rid of the smell. It occurs when I'm in different places (at home, at work, at a store, etc), so I know it doesn't have anything to do with my housekeeping skills!
> >
> > Ugh, how awful. If you were only experiencing this at home, I'd say check your ducts. I had a similar experience where I was smelling this foul odor all over the house, and I thought it was me at one point! It was an animal, probably a squirrel or chipmunk who had climbed into the heat ducts and died. Bleah. I hope this goes away soon.
> >
> > > 7) Extreme anxiety: Feels as if I'm having a very severe panic attack (which I'm not): I noticed that this happened the other day after I had one piece of imported chocolate. It can last for several days and is very unpleasant. I have tried to alleviate the feeling of anxiety by working out at the gym and it helps only slightly. Also, Xanex helped a little bit.
> >
> > I'd be surprised if any of the symptoms you describe are related to eating something with tyramine. The main reaction with tyramine is an increase in blood pressure, which usually results in a terrible headache and can lead to a hemorrhagic stroke. Nardil at 75 mg gave me akathisia and severe insomnia (probably related to the akathisia). I couldn't sit still and felt like I was jumping out of my skin. This felt similar to panic, though it was a more physical reaction. Could your experience be more like akathisia?
> >
> > > 8) Difficulty doing simple math equations: For example, I used to be the person everyone turned to when figuring out the bill at a restaurant. Now I have problems calculating in my head and have stopped trying because it is too frustrating. This also may be caused by lack of sleep (?)
> >
> > Again, I think I'd check with your doc, but lack of sleep definitely interferes with cognition.
> >
> > > 9) Involuntary muscle spasms: I had these when I was taking Cymbalta and they seem to have returned but they are less frequent and not as strong.
> >
> > Is this only at certain times? With Nardil I get myoclonic jerks at times--that whole body jerk associated with going to sleep. They get stronger with dosage decreases, actually. But I can get several in a row when I am first trying to get to sleep.
> >
> > I hope your side effects resolve since Emsam is working for you. And hopefully you can find something to target anxiety as well. Good luck!
> >
> > gg
> >
>
>
> Hi Shoshana-
> I agree with Garden Girl's post above. It doesn't sound like you're having a tyramine food reaction (aka "The Cheese Reaction"!) If it were the tyramine you'd have the opposite reaction. Your reactions to these foods is really interesting and if you never had them before the EMSAM, it's seems like it would be connected in some way. Sorry, but I have nothing scientific to offer as a possible explanation for this one.
>
> About your orthostatic hypotension- I can really relate. I thought that mine was pretty well controlled by changing the way that I do things (related to sitting, laying, rising and bending) but just last Friday I passed out when standing up from exercising on a recumbent stepper in cardiac rehab....I thought that I had sat up for long enough and was stabilized because I felt ok, so I got up .....and dropped like a rock. So they kind of kicked me out of rehab until my docs can figure out what they're going to do (internist and pdoc). I see them both tomorrow. Right now, they're considering 2 things for me- a drug called florinef which is used to raise blood pressure for people on drugs that create this very situation.
>
> The other drug that is being considered in addition to florinef is provigil because I too am having cognitive difficulties (mine aren't attributed to the EMSAM, but to a new drug recently added for sleep- not really new, but new to me- trazadone. Trazadone can cause cognitive problems. (I had bad insomnia before emsam, and I don't think it's made it any worse- well maybe a little at the beginning- but I've always been on something for sleep since the onset of the depression. I got changed over to trazadone once the seroquel stopped working for me.) I am just starting to get caught up on some of the sleep I've needed since 6 weeks ago, and my pdoc is thinking that the sleep deprivation may well be adding to the cognitive problems.
>
> Even though I hate the idea of adding any more drugs to my already long list, I will give any of this a try so that I can stay on the EMSAM since it's done so much for me.
>
> You mention the anxiety factor.....I was very high anxiety when I started on EMSAM. In the early days at the 6mg dose I did experience an increase in anxiety. It is pretty much gone and even much reduced from pre-EMSAM days now that I'm at the 12mg dose. GG made a really good point about checking to see if your neuro spasms and what you're calling anxiety may be realted more to akasthisia. I think that's worth looking into.
>
> About the "odor" that you're sensing... My understanding is that this can be from several different things. I had this briefly several years ago (way before EMSAM) and was told by both my pdoc and therapist that it's almost the same as the "aura" that people with epilepsy get prior to a seizure and they said that it has nothing to do with epilepsy, it's just stimulation to your brain that's similar. It is also sometimes referred to as a "sensory hallucination". It's been described as the odor of rotting flesh, rotting eggs and other really gross things! Mine went away all by itself. They still have no precise answer for me that spells out exactly why this happened, just that they have seen it in others who have atypical depression. I was told however, that it could be from lack of sleep, (as I've mentioned above it's a big problem for me when the meds quit working) since sleep deprivation can cause hallucinosis in anyone, but apparently us depressed folks are more sensitive to this type of hallucinosis. Anyway, that's what they told me.
>
> I also have increased sensitivity to light. My eyes have always been somewhat sensitive because I have blue eyes, and that's common for "light colored eyes". It's not unbearable for me, but it's definitely increased since I've been on EMSAM.
>
> I had some myoclonic jerking at bedtime myself a few months ago. It was happening frequenlty- sometimes twice a night and I was even biting my tongue sometimes. It's been gone now almost entirely for probably 2 months. (I went up to 12 mgs EMSAM in September, I think). It's really unpleasant, and klonopin only worked for me in huge doses (like 15-20mg) and I wanted no part of that. Be sure to watch for some any signs of TD.
>
> My heart is with you on this one. I know how nice it is to find something that really helps you feel better. The qualtiy of my life has been so improved by EMSAM that I'd do just about anything to stay on it. I sincerely hope that you're able to work around these difficulties and continue to feel better. Happy New year, Shoshana
> /m
>
This is the end of the thread.
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