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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Talbot on December 16, 2006, at 15:32:43
Just saw this on the Drudge Report, top of page.
"Controversy develops around side effects of a schizophrenia drug... MORE... NYT Sunday: Drug maker Eli Lilly has engaged in a decade-long effort to downplay the health risks of Zyprexa, its best-selling medication for schizophrenia..."
Posted by yxibow on December 16, 2006, at 17:54:10
In reply to Zyprexa in Sunday NYT?, posted by Talbot on December 16, 2006, at 15:32:43
> Just saw this on the Drudge Report, top of page.
>
> "Controversy develops around side effects of a schizophrenia drug... MORE... NYT Sunday: Drug maker Eli Lilly has engaged in a decade-long effort to downplay the health risks of Zyprexa, its best-selling medication for schizophrenia..."
>There may or may not be internal documents for all I know, but these are the sorts of things that you will get by looking at the Drudge Report.
Yes, the NYT article makes reference to the CATIE trial about old line drugs when the NY Times article makes reference to "new drugs" with their "own side effects". This is most very likely true, but I sure wouldn't want to be taking an old line neuroleptic regardless. The amount and especially variety of EPS and potential TD present in atypicals such as Seroquel has still so far been less than the older, much harsher agents like Haldol. Not that I relish taking Seroquel with the side effects I do get, but it remains one of the few agents that don't particularly give me akathisia (this isn't remotely for psychosis.)
Nonetheless, complete medical monitoring of a patient with schizophrenia or other psychotic disturbances where they cannot easily give informed consent should be challenged regularly with diabetes tests and regular liver panels/etc for adverse events by their caregivers.
So I think while the burden of possible "internal memos" may fall on Lilly and possible charges of gross mismarketing, the burden of monitoring someone on an agent that had just reached the market and is still fairly new, should also now and have been fallen on the doctors to be conservative and take lab tests. Psychiatry doesn't exist in a vacuum, and if both parties here create a double irresponsibility, 0+0=0.Pyschiatrists are responsible for seeing and testing that their patients are gaining weight more than they should be, if they fall in the category of people who are more susceptible to lipid changes in new line drugs. I speak for neither side, but I think that the "out to lunch" phenomenon can be placed a bit on both sides of the story. As for what you can say about drug companies, well -- that is for the individual. I mean I believe in better living through chemistry but I also know about prudence. We all want the perfect drug, yet when the drug that we find appearing on the market produces unintended consequences, the human instinct is to jump on the drug.
The result is more hurdles and fewer drugs reaching the market. Periodically people always ask, what is the next big thing -- I do too -- and the next big thing has to prove beyond more than new criteria (which may be prudent, not saying that it isnt) that it is more effective than current agents and even more safer. Its a vicious cycle and argument and you could easily paraphrase the above paragraph for the drug industry or for the patients who are seeking rare "orphan drugs."-- tidings
Posted by mixed_state on December 16, 2006, at 20:52:23
In reply to Re: Zyprexa in Sunday NYT? » Talbot, posted by yxibow on December 16, 2006, at 17:54:10
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/business/17drug.htm
Posted by blueberry1 on December 17, 2006, at 12:06:41
In reply to Here's the Link, posted by mixed_state on December 16, 2006, at 20:52:23
Wow. And I've been on zyprexa for about 10 years? When my doctors kept telling me I needed to go to 10mg or 15mg my gut instincts always told me to stay at 5mg and never go higher. I'm glad I listened to my instincts.
My weight did increase at first but then dropped back on its own after a few months. I was skinny to begin with and still am. But I need to get my blood sugar stuff tested.
My problems with zyprexa aren't the weight gain or diabetes I don't think. Mine are along the lines of creating new illnesses that were never there in the first place. For example, if I try to stop zyprexa, I feel almost psychotic in a way, with intense anxiety that persists even a month later, and I walk around with a free-floating fear, and small noises make me jump. None of these things ever existed before. I started off with just plain depression where prozac needed a companion to go with it and zyprexa was the top choice of several doctors. They just love it. I wonder what kind of perks they get from Lilly. And of course the minor tremors and twitches here and there.
I don't know if I can ever get off zyprexa. I have never in my life thought about suing anyone. But I have had background thoughts of suing Lilly and also suing the folks that did my ECT. I should just let that stuff go. But when something screws you up so badly, I don't know, it's a tough call.
Posted by laima on December 18, 2006, at 9:26:47
In reply to Zyprexa in Sunday NYT?, posted by Talbot on December 16, 2006, at 15:32:43
"Eli Lilly encouraged primary care physicians to use Zyprexa, a powerful drug for schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, in patients who did not have either condition, according to internal Lilly marketing materials."
Posted by Sebastian on December 20, 2006, at 11:48:23
In reply to Re: Here's the Link, posted by blueberry1 on December 17, 2006, at 12:06:41
I've been taking zyprexa for 10 years and I thought I would never get off it, tried to many times, with realy bad results. This time I've been off it totaly for 2 days and previously for a week at half the dose. So far so good. I'm replaced the zyprexa with a small dose of abilify. I used to take zyprexa religiously every day, never miss a dose out of fear. The last time I stoped the zyprexa compleatly I lasted 5 days or so before I was talking suicide. This time is different. I feel better than on the zyprexa. hopfully I can do this for the whole month and then I will be done with it. My weight and blood sugar are already getting better.
Posted by ronaldo on December 20, 2006, at 14:54:57
In reply to Re: Off zyprexa, posted by Sebastian on December 20, 2006, at 11:48:23
> I've been taking zyprexa for 10 years and I thought I would never get off it,
How much were you taking?
>tried to many times, with realy bad results. This time I've been off it totaly for 2 days and previously for a week at half the dose. So far so good. I'm replaced the zyprexa with a small dose of abilify.
How much?
>I used to take zyprexa religiously every day, never miss a dose out of fear. The last time I stoped the zyprexa compleatly I lasted 5 days or so before I was talking suicide.
My best for cold turkey is nine days. Went down from 5 mg, but I had only been on it for 4 years.
>This time is different. I feel better than on the zyprexa.
Just taking the small dose of Abilify?
>hopfully I can do this for the whole month and then I will be done with it. My weight and blood sugar are already getting better.
Good luck. Will you stay with the small dose of Abilify?
ronaldo
Posted by laima on December 21, 2006, at 10:14:42
In reply to Re: Off zyprexa, posted by ronaldo on December 20, 2006, at 14:54:57
I'm pretty disturbed over this, and hope it's not a typical scenario.http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/21/business/21drug.html
"Disparity Emerges in Lilly Data on Schizophrenia Drug"
"For at least a year, Eli Lilly provided information to doctors about the blood-sugar risks of its drug Zyprexa that did not match data that the company circulated internally when it first reviewed its clinical trial results, according to company documents."
Posted by Sebastian on December 21, 2006, at 11:42:47
In reply to Re: Off zyprexa, posted by ronaldo on December 20, 2006, at 14:54:57
Most of the time I was on 10mg zyprexa. Abilify, I'm currently taking 4mg, cut in half twice a day, morning and lunch or dinner, lunch seems better. The first 2 years I took zyprexa I had no problem stoping it for months at a time, but I would go psychotic. Ever since then my addiction to zyprexa wouldn't let me miss a day, and it had to be 10mg. Currently I take 4mg abilify, 60mg celexa, and 300mg wellbutrin sr(generic is better), and zyprexa as needed. Yes last night I broke down and took half a dose, I was having truble eating. Think I will stay with the abilify, I just quit geodon a week ago, no withdraws from that and I was on a high dose 120 mg. the abilify seems to be helping with the withdraw.
Posted by Sebastian on December 21, 2006, at 11:55:06
In reply to yet another zyprexa article today:, posted by laima on December 21, 2006, at 10:14:42
I think its addictive, I've never had such a problem coming off a med. The first time I took it I had immediate relife of all my symptoms, and even though I was psychotic I thought it had crack in it. Yes I had tried it once a few years earlier. Could withdraw symptoms be: unable to eat, lack of feeling rested, unable to concentrate, racing thoughts and psychosis. The abilify seems to be preventing the psychosis. Concentration is so so.
Posted by Sebastian on December 21, 2006, at 12:01:08
In reply to Zyprexa addictive? Opions., posted by Sebastian on December 21, 2006, at 11:55:06
Oh, and lack of feeling good. Its like it coats your stomack and takes away pain. I've never taken any pain pills but wonder if its similar.
Posted by Sebastian on December 21, 2006, at 12:05:54
In reply to Zyprexa addictive? Opions., posted by Sebastian on December 21, 2006, at 11:55:06
Yesterday I felt cold and sweaty, untill I took a little zyprexa. I don't know if that was zyprexa withdraw or abilify side-effects.
Posted by Heidi Manway on December 27, 2006, at 9:06:01
In reply to Re: Zyprexa addictive? Opions., posted by Sebastian on December 21, 2006, at 12:05:54
> Yesterday I felt cold and sweaty, untill I took a little zyprexa. I don't know if that was zyprexa withdraw or abilify side-effects.
Hey Blueberry
>
> Haven't got much to suggest really, I'm sorry your finding it so rough :(
>
> As Zyprexa is a sedating Atypical I would have though another sedating Atypical would help, like Seroquel.
> Thats all I can think of at the moment really>>>>>
Hi there,Beware with Zyprexa I was on only 5 mg of it for 12 months I developed drug induced Parkinsonism the left side of my Body is like a Stroke But its NOT a Stroke my arm my leg are all affected this was confirmed by a Neurologist 1 year ago since then there has been no reversal of systoms despite discontinuation of meds and Yes Zyprexa is very hard to quit remember the LAST part of the medication is the hardest to quit only way is very slow taper or get it made up in suspension It made me get intense anxiety like going mad and there was music playing around in my head a King Charles Head.
Posted by kotsunega on December 31, 2006, at 23:51:33
In reply to Re: Zyprexa addictive? Opions., posted by Heidi Manway on December 27, 2006, at 9:06:01
Until reading all the posts on this topic, I thought my situation was unique - but I see now that it is not.
The only side effect I have ever had from 6 years of a 20 mg dose nightly of zyprexa was the fact that it slowed my mental functions. In the beginning, this was a very good thing because I was wide open manic in the extreme and it calmed me practically overnight.
I loved the way I could sleep and sleep deeply on zyprexa, it was such a relief after years of not-so-good or no sleep due to the mania I lived with.
After awhile, however, I simply became frustrated when it occurred to me that my slowed mind was making information retention and recall at work difficult. And, while formerly relieved at my more slowly operating mind on zyprexa rather than experiencing racing thoughts all the time, I began to miss having a desire for...well anything. I was too content, and I missed getting excited about things.
So, I tried TWICE to get off of zyprexa with dismal results. I've tried going cold turkey off of zyprexa while implementing another atypical antipsychotic, and I've tried slowly reducing the amount of zyprexa I take, while titrating up on another atypical. In either case, I dearly missed sleeping well and eventually gave up and went back to zyprexa - defeated.
Well, I'm trying once again to get over this zyprexa monkey on my back, and got a suggestion from someone else on this board to try replacing the zyprexa, a little at a time, with Benadryl, which has the same sedative effect due to similar actions on the same 5HT neurotransmitters that zyprexa acts on.
In researching this whole issue, I did learn that zyprexa is a thienbenzodiazepine - a cousin to the benzodiazepine known as valium. As we all know, valium is very addictive to some.
Now, as someone else on these boards also pointed out, zyprexa, although a benzodiazepine, affects different neurotransmitters than does valium. But, I have to wonder, if the one is addictive, could not both valium AND zyprexa have benzodiazepine-based addictive properties -- while they do so at different receptor sites?
It concerns me that others here are also complaining of difficulties ending their relationship with zyprexa, so I thought I would add my 5 cents.
If Eli Lilly could take action to discount or minimalize to doctors and the public the known health risks of diabetes, high lipids, weight gain, and Parkinsonian problems in zyprexa, I have to wonder what else they accidentally or purposefully forgot to tell us about what happens upon drug withdrawal after moderately long term use.
Posted by Sebastian on January 1, 2007, at 21:31:53
In reply to Re: Zyprexa addictive? Opinions., posted by kotsunega on December 31, 2006, at 23:51:33
I find zyprexa only slows the mind when I first start that dose. Normaly zyprexa make me think better, clear, sure, saine. I found that any dose higher than 10mg did not work for me, at 15mg I would sleep 18 hours a day and feel realy tired. I had the same problems coming off zyprexa.
Personaly I think its addictive atleast in its own way. My first experience with zyprexa made me think it had crack in it. Imagination or addiction.
It may be addictive but it helps me greatly. No other meds did the same. Giving me my life back for 10 years. Before that I was in and out of the mental hospital every other couple of months. sine starting zyprexa I have not needed to go to the hospital. I can function at work. Before zyprexa nothing worked, no number of ECT, no meds, not prozac or what ever else they gave me in the hospital. I spent all my time watching tv and afraid to leave the house. But zyprexa changed all that, immediatly I was able to work leave the house, feel no pain(emotionaly).
This is the end of the thread.
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