Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 711431

Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

non-opiate replacement for hydrococone?

Posted by liliths on December 8, 2006, at 8:19:48

hi all,

Does anyone know of anything I can use that might work like the hydrocodone did without testing postivies for opiates in my urine?

My diagnosis is ADD/anxiety/depression
my current regimen is
focalin xr 40mg - once day
wellbutrin 100mg - 2x day
buspar - 22.5mg - 2x day
klonopin - 1mg - 2x day / 2mg evenings
hydrocodone 7.5mg - 2x day

Despite being stated as "safe and stable to practice and doing well on my current regimen" I am being forced to withdraw all use of opiates and submit to random urinalysis for 5 years if I want to obtain my state license to practice Massage Therapy

discussion of what I'm up against has been moved to 'work' but I need med info if I'm going to consider accepting their conditions to get my damn license while I also mount a discrimination suit.

I'm posting the links to the threads for anyone who wants background info:

the original thread for the whole story:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061206/msgs/710892.html

the update of what happened yesterday:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/work/20060706/msgs/711363.html

I am really concerned as, obviously, with all that's been going on, I'm a mess - hardly in a position to be changing meds right now and the hydrocodone appears to be the only thing that allows me to 'do' anything - it really does affect my motivation/depression. The buspar does nothing for my anxiety - it only works as to augment the wellbutrin.

I've been so stressed out since this thing began, I'm basically non-functional and suicidal (BUT that is NOT a threat - I have a 16 year old cat totally dependent on me that I've sworn to never leave - as long as she's alive, it's not an option.) But I do obsess about it constantly as I feel desperate and defeated and hopeless. It just seems inevitable

this has been an ongoing nightmare.

so I thank you for allowing me to rant and I do apologize for that

and once more, in case you've forgotten the original reason for this post through all my nonsense

are there any meds that might work in place of the hydrocodone? I don't do well on SRRI's and can't handle any drug with weight gain side effect. Is there anything I can try?

thanks for listening

namaste,
lilith

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » liliths

Posted by Declan on December 8, 2006, at 12:52:46

In reply to non-opiate replacement for hydrococone?, posted by liliths on December 8, 2006, at 8:19:48

Crikey. You are on a number of drugs, and to be a massage therapist (for heavens sake), they want to take the only one that works (the least toxic one) off you. That's just what I'd expect. Thankyou, Liliths, you've woken me up.
AFAIK there is no replacement for a decent opiate.
Clearly what you should do (irresponsible recommendation following) is ditch the Wellbutrin and the Buspar and double the Focalin and the Hydrocodone.
I have no idea.

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone?

Posted by Phillipa on December 8, 2006, at 13:06:05

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » liliths, posted by Declan on December 8, 2006, at 12:52:46

Lilith how can you work if you're in that bad a shape. Is buph an option? I still say haven't heard of anything like this before. But then I haven't worked in 9 years. So anything is possible. Love Phillipa

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » Declan

Posted by yxibow on December 8, 2006, at 13:22:24

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » liliths, posted by Declan on December 8, 2006, at 12:52:46

> Crikey. You are on a number of drugs, and to be a massage therapist (for heavens sake), they want to take the only one that works (the least toxic one) off you. That's just what I'd expect. Thankyou, Liliths, you've woken me up.
> AFAIK there is no replacement for a decent opiate.
> Clearly what you should do (irresponsible recommendation following) is ditch the Wellbutrin and the Buspar and double the Focalin and the Hydrocodone.
> I have no idea.

Yes, irresponsible recommendation. You can relay your experiences with drugs but to tell someone to ditch what their doctor has or hasn't done is inappropriate.

There are reasons why opiates are not used in current psychiatry and addiction is only one of them -- receiving a license from the state to do a certain job means unfortunately you have to fit their requirements if you want to do that. What if someone zoned out on a patient and did the wrong thing?

I can sympathize but its the same thing if you were asked to drive a bus or something. Some professions unfortunately require alertness and attention to detail. Now if there is a way to petition regarding this and bring a doctors' say so to the board, that is always an option, but it is of course a catch 22 about a doctor-patient confidence.

-- Jy

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » yxibow

Posted by Quintal on December 8, 2006, at 13:33:13

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » Declan, posted by yxibow on December 8, 2006, at 13:22:24

>Yes, irresponsible recommendation. You can relay your experiences with drugs but to tell someone to ditch what their doctor has or hasn't done is inappropriate.

I got the impression Declan's comment was mean to be taken lightly myself - a bit of irony perhaps?

>There are reasons why opiates are not used in current psychiatry and addiction is only one of them

What exactly are those other reasons?

Q

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » liliths

Posted by Quintal on December 8, 2006, at 13:47:26

In reply to non-opiate replacement for hydrococone?, posted by liliths on December 8, 2006, at 8:19:48

Liliths, there was a thread on here a while ago by a guy who had used oxytocin nasal spray to help with opiate withdrawal. I'm guessing it *may* help as a substitute?

Here is a link to the thread: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061110/msgs/704011.html

I sympathise with you on the trouble you're having. It seems excessively heavy handed and unjust to me, especially since you could just have lied on the application form and said the opiates were for arthritis pain or something and probably not been interrogated. For that matter it's curious the side effects of the opiates are considered severe enough to impair your job performance when taken for depression, but not for people who take them to control physical pain?

I'm having success myself with OTC painkillers that contain codeine as a subtle mood brightener and anxiolytic - very effective.

Q

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone?

Posted by blueberry on December 8, 2006, at 14:06:58

In reply to non-opiate replacement for hydrococone?, posted by liliths on December 8, 2006, at 8:19:48


>
> My diagnosis is ADD/anxiety/depression
> my current regimen is
> focalin xr 40mg - once day
> wellbutrin 100mg - 2x day
> buspar - 22.5mg - 2x day
> klonopin - 1mg - 2x day / 2mg evenings
> hydrocodone 7.5mg - 2x day


"I'm a mess - hardly in a position to be changing meds right now"

I don't know, it sounds to me like a change in meds could be a high priority right now. If you are a mess, why keep taking stuff that has you feeling like a mess?

"and the hydrocodone appears to be the only thing that allows me to 'do' anything - it really does affect my motivation/depression."

If the depression is that serious and there is no way to get your license with an opiate, you might have to think about keeping the opiate and seek a new career direction.

"The buspar does nothing for my anxiety - it only works as to augment the wellbutrin."

They do not sound like they are working at all.

"I've been so stressed out since this thing began, I'm basically non-functional and suicidal"

Everyone gets stressed out bigtime over major traumas in life. But to become non-functional and suicidal is beyond normal. Again, the meds seem to be rather iffy, and maybe even contributing to the stress and depression more than you think. I wonder about klonopin too. Worsened depression is common with it. Maybe switch to xanax which is more of an antidepressant?

For weak opiate effects, there are the herbs rhodiola rosea, chasteberry, and st johns wort, or all three combined. They wouldn't compare to a prescription opiate in terms of strength, but hey, they are all decent antidepressants.

What about Nardil?

Easier said than done I know. I am so sorry for how you are feeling. It's like between a rock and a hard place. Maybe withdraw from wellbutrin, buspar, and klonopin. Replace with the 3 herbs and xanax, or replace with nardil and xanax.

I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. Please disregard if it sounds useless.

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » liliths

Posted by zmg on December 8, 2006, at 14:14:49

In reply to non-opiate replacement for hydrococone?, posted by liliths on December 8, 2006, at 8:19:48

I understand long-term use of Tramadol can have some negative side-effect. Anyone?

Anyway, not that either site is exactly an authority, but:

http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.cgi?ID=2839
http://www.rxlist.com/rxboard/ultram.pl?noframes;read=2068

Checking interactions:

http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/Interaction/InteractionResults?drug=&drugList=163&cD=89&cD=551130&cD=163&cD=675&cD=88&dN=%22BuSpar%22+%22Focalin%22+%22Klonopin%22+%22Tramadol%22+%22Wellbutrin%22+&CheckFDA=1

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL

Posted by liliths on December 8, 2006, at 14:41:33

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 8, 2006, at 13:47:26

Hi Q

thanks for the info. Actually the evaluating psychiatrist stated that on my current regimen I was "safe and stable to practice". He just didn't like my meds and has the ability to make recommendations that the Review Board will listen to. They don't want to be responsible for making these decisions so they pass it off on to PRN which has all the clout.

to anyone else reading this, no, I am not zoned out, drugged or incapable of performing. I went back to school and graduated as a high honor student with a 3.95 GPA and scored high in all content areas on my National Certification Boards. The only real changes I made on my meds while in school was to cut down on the wellbutrin, as it gives me word-finding diffulties... not something I could deal with considering how many exams I had

I'm not looking for something to deal with withdrawal. I've tapered off the hydrocodone a couple of time myself with no ill effects. The problem is if I want my license, I have to comply with their decision, which is to not take any opiates and submit to random drug tests for 5 years.

I'm just looking for something that might work in a similar fashion but that won't show as an opiate in a urinalysis... asking too much, I guess

I am also planning on contacting an employment atty as I've been told I have a strong discrimination case. Like I said, it clearly states I am safe and stable on my current regimen. So in effect, they're saying "it works... gee, let's change it"

all I had to do on the application was not cop to being treated for depression and none of this would ever have happened. But I wanted to be honest and my pdoc assured me they wouldn't discriminate against me... HAH! I should have lied though that's not my basic nature.

thanks again... I have been somewhat surprised by the reaction to this post but we are all different and there seemed to be some confusion about my question - sorry if I hadn't made myself clear

namaste,
lilith

> Liliths, there was a thread on here a while ago by a guy who had used oxytocin nasal spray to help with opiate withdrawal. I'm guessing it *may* help as a substitute?
>
> Here is a link to the thread: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061110/msgs/704011.html
>
> I sympathise with you on the trouble you're having. It seems excessively heavy handed and unjust to me, especially since you could just have lied on the application form and said the opiates were for arthritis pain or something and probably not been interrogated. For that matter it's curious the side effects of the opiates are considered severe enough to impair your job performance when taken for depression, but not for people who take them to control physical pain?
>
> I'm having success myself with OTC painkillers that contain codeine as a subtle mood brightener and anxiolytic - very effective.
>
> Q

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL » liliths

Posted by zmg on December 8, 2006, at 14:48:13

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL, posted by liliths on December 8, 2006, at 14:41:33

You may have missed my post. The Tramadol may work (I was hoping for a little feedback).

As for you problem, I'm really sorry to have read about the entire mess. Ignorance can lead to fear and/or uncertainty.

Maybe if you were operating heavy machinery or practicing medicine I could understand. My wife is certified, the laws are ridiculously heavy handed (she had to get thumb-printed at the police department, to practice massage you're treated like a criminal?).

Anyway, I wish you all the best.

- Zach

 

*cough* » zmg

Posted by zmg on December 8, 2006, at 14:49:59

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL » liliths, posted by zmg on December 8, 2006, at 14:48:13

Should have read: finger-printed (although I'm sure they included thumbs too!).

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL » liliths

Posted by Quintal on December 8, 2006, at 15:19:12

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL, posted by liliths on December 8, 2006, at 14:41:33

Hi Liliths,

I was suggesting the oxytocin spray more as a non-opiate substitute as you requested rather than to deal with withdrawal, since oxytocin seems to produce a similar sense of emotional warmth, wellebing and feeling of safety. I don't know how it compares exactly to opiates, but it does seem to be strong enough to satisfy a former opiate addict. I'm quite interested in trying it myself.

Q

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL » zmg

Posted by liliths on December 8, 2006, at 15:28:09

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL » liliths, posted by zmg on December 8, 2006, at 14:48:13

Thank you for understanding. I've never had much luck with tramadol when taken as a pain killer - I've actually had to take ridiculous quantities to obtain any effect. Also would be curious how it would show up in urinalysis - but it might be worth looking into

thanks again... your support helps :)

namaste,
lilith

> You may have missed my post. The Tramadol may work (I was hoping for a little feedback).
>
> As for you problem, I'm really sorry to have read about the entire mess. Ignorance can lead to fear and/or uncertainty.
>
> Maybe if you were operating heavy machinery or practicing medicine I could understand. My wife is certified, the laws are ridiculously heavy handed (she had to get thumb-printed at the police department, to practice massage you're treated like a criminal?).
>
> Anyway, I wish you all the best.
>
> - Zach

 

Re: non-opiate been tareplacement for hydrococone? » zmg

Posted by Quintal on December 8, 2006, at 15:30:34

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » liliths, posted by zmg on December 8, 2006, at 14:14:49

Zach, I got a positive result for opiates when the drug treatment centre I was attending for benzo withdrawal sprung a random urine test on me last year. I was taking tramadol at the time purchased from an online pharmacy and I hadn't declared it at my triage assessment interview. I'm pretty sure I wasn't taking any other opiates at that time. I don't see how it can happen though given the info on those links you provided.

Any ideas what might be going on?

Q

 

Re: non-opiate been tareplacement for hydrococone? » Quintal

Posted by zmg on December 8, 2006, at 16:06:01

In reply to Re: non-opiate been tareplacement for hydrococone? » zmg, posted by Quintal on December 8, 2006, at 15:30:34

The information could be inaccurate or out-of-date (or both!).

Over the last few years Tramadol has become increasingly, lets say, high-profile, it wouldn't surprise me if it had started to turn up more regularly in tests.

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » yxibow

Posted by Declan on December 10, 2006, at 21:42:41

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » Declan, posted by yxibow on December 8, 2006, at 13:22:24

Yxi
There was a serious idea somewhere in what I wrote.
We have different ideas about
the resilience of the human organism
the toxicity of psych drugs
the value of the DSM, and
psychiatry in general.

 

Redirect: alternative substitutes

Posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2006, at 23:45:14

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? TO ALL » liliths, posted by Quintal on December 8, 2006, at 15:19:12

> I was suggesting the oxytocin spray more as a non-opiate substitute as you requested ...

Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding alternative substitutes to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20061203/msgs/712379.html

Thanks,

Bob

 

Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » Declan

Posted by yxibow on December 14, 2006, at 3:25:22

In reply to Re: non-opiate replacement for hydrococone? » yxibow, posted by Declan on December 10, 2006, at 21:42:41

> Yxi
> There was a serious idea somewhere in what I wrote.
> We have different ideas about
> the resilience of the human organism
> the toxicity of psych drugs
> the value of the DSM, and
> psychiatry in general.

I didn't say you weren't serious although someone else in the thread said there was a tad bit of humour involved.

And we do have completely different ideas -- that's fine.

But we're on a board about psychiatry and I tire at debating psychiatry ad nauseum to the point of scientology et alia. There have been many threads like that -- if you have your opinions that's fine.

"Alternative drugs" have their own toxicities and few have ever been double blind tested and gone through phase trials.

I have nothing wrong with your beliefs in alternative medicine -- I mean, I've personally tried Kava, e.g., although it is an example of a drug with definite toxicities.

-- tidings


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