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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 18:19:09
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » aeon, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 7:21:12
Scott what is dysautonomia? Never heard that before. You research so much. And could Serotonin sydrome occurr now after you've been on the combo for a few weeks. Does it build up in your system and then cause it? Love Jan
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 18:21:12
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by aeon on November 28, 2006, at 7:53:14
Please care about you. I don't know you but I care about you. Love Phillipa
Posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 19:51:45
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » SLS, posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 18:19:09
> Scott what is dysautonomia? Never heard that before. You research so much. And could Serotonin sydrome occurr now after you've been on the combo for a few weeks. Does it build up in your system and then cause it? Love Jan
You ask all the right questions, Jan.
Dysautonomia is an imbalance of the autonomic nervous system. In my case, it is skewed towards the sympathetic: increased heart rate, dry mouth, constipation, blurred vision, mydriasis, dizziness, muscle weakness, breathlessness upon exertion, etc.
It takes at least a week at a particular dosage of an MAOI for MAO inhibition to build up. I have been on 60mg for 6 days. I began feeling weird yesterday with some mental confusion, ataxia, dizziness, muscle stiffness around my torso, and slightly slurred speech. Today has been better, although these things have not completely disappeared. I was concerned that this was the onset of serotonin syndrome. Maybe it wasn't. I remain hopeful.
- Scott
Posted by clint878 on November 28, 2006, at 19:55:16
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » clint878, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:37:06
I took it for five days, only 200mg/day, beginning on August 5. I discontinued it because I was suffering from memory loss and confusion. On the sixth day, I became completely unable to do anything - with severe panic attacks and depression with so much energy I thought my head would explode. A few days later, I became unable to sleep, for four days straight at a time. One time I was so sleep-deprived I fainted. I would pace for hours and hours. I had no emotions; in fact, I couldn't think clearly enough to even understand the concept of emotions. I nearly committed suicide several times because I couldn't think.
It took eight weeks before a doctor was able to provide me any help with the condition. He said that I have a "minor variant of bipolar disorder" and prescribed Lamictal. Yet, even though all the symptoms above have subsided except for the memory problems, nobody can tell me why I still can't keep any thought in my head for more for three seconds. I have difficulty coming up with the right words, which has caused several incidents where I have appeared extremely stupid. And driving is another story, because I can't process everything that's going on around me in real-time, with the world being out-of-focus. I remember very little of what happened the past three months.
As a result of this, I lost a promotion, and will probably be out of a job within a few months unless someone can help me. Probably, I'll have to throw away my master's degree in computer science and engineering and do some low-paying labor or secretarial work.
This post took me almost an hour to write because I lose my train of thought so frequently and can't come up with the right words.
It's amazing how one day I could be a little depressed, just looking for a minor boost with a low dose of Sam-E, and a week later, become so completely unable to think that it's almost not worth living. I'm not suicidal, so don't call the police, but I still see little good I can do by continuing to exist without a mind.
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 21:07:03
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » linkadge, posted by clint878 on November 28, 2006, at 19:55:16
Clint this was from Samee something available in a health food store. How horrible. I'm so sorry. Love Phillipa
Posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 21:38:23
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » linkadge, posted by clint878 on November 28, 2006, at 19:55:16
How much Lamictal are you taking?
300mg makes me stupid.
Lamictal is well-known to produce memory problems. However, at higher dosages, I find that it produces more general cognitive impairments as well.
- Scott
Posted by cecilia on November 28, 2006, at 22:22:21
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » clint878, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 21:38:23
Well, unhappiness and depression may not be the same thing, but I'm not sure what the difference is in the long run, either way you have a miserable life. I suppose I must have unhappiness, not depression, since I've never responded to an AD, but I certainly meet the DSM criteria for depression. I suppose unhappiness can cause depression and depression can cause unhappiness. As for money making you happy, there's certainly nothing I can think of buying that would make me happy. I wasted a lot of money on therapy; I don't know, maybe that made my therapist happy but it certainly did nothing for me. Cecilia
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 22:52:14
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 28, 2006, at 22:22:21
Well said. Cause now that's the way it is. I'll never feel the way I did years ago. And your right the therapists and pdocs are happy. Wonder if they take meds? Love Phillipa
Posted by stargazer on November 28, 2006, at 23:58:30
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » clint878, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 21:38:23
Lamictal messed me up too cognitively, I was not able to remember anything for more than a brief moment. I would deny someone saying something to me. They would look at me like I was out of it, which I guess, in retrospect, I was.
I swear it was from the Lamictal, but for some reason my pdoc wanted me to stay on it along with some other meds, can't remember now what they were (memory was deleted). I decided to wean off it and it was the right thing to do.
That's an example of me saying to my pdoc, "it's making me worse" and eventually feeling better and proving I was right.
Currently I'm on Seroquel, which my pdoc also wanted me to stay on at higher doses than I am currently on and I insisted it was making me lightheaded and dizzy and with a past year of falling on my face, I have weaned myself down to 25-50 mg from 200 mg. One day I took only 50 mg during the day instead of at night and I felt almost immediately off balance. These drugs can really mess you up if you don't watch out for yourself, since sometimes you are all alone with your bad self. Sorry for bad joke.
Why do I have to tell my pdoc what is the right thing to do. Sometimes it does get really frustrating but in the long run, he's still better than most docs I hear of.
SG
Posted by Declan on November 29, 2006, at 0:53:35
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 28, 2006, at 22:22:21
For me unhappiness and depression are indistinguishable, except that unhappiness is a real word and depression is not.
Also unhappiness is a word with historical resonance, whereas someone thought depression up far too recently.If it's happiness/unhappiness, then we should be able to do it for each other. If it's depression, something should work, therapy or drugs.
Bit of a f*ck up.
Posted by cecilia on November 29, 2006, at 1:45:06
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » cecilia, posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 22:52:14
Well, I think a lot of the therapists and pdocs are faking it too. Pdocs, in particular, who have easy access to med samples, have a very high suicide rate. Cecilia
Posted by cecilia on November 29, 2006, at 1:58:32
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Phillipa, posted by cecilia on November 29, 2006, at 1:45:06
And I'm willing to bet that most of the pdocs who kill themselves have plenty of money. Cecilia
Posted by Declan on November 29, 2006, at 12:33:06
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Phillipa, posted by cecilia on November 29, 2006, at 1:45:06
So do anaesthetists, but they have better drugs.
Posted by linkadge on November 29, 2006, at 17:11:13
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Phillipa, posted by cecilia on November 29, 2006, at 1:45:06
Exactly, thats because they know the truth. If depression were treatable, and the future were truely hopefull because of the advent of antidepressants, who better to know it than psychiatrists?
So, if they have a high suicide rate what does that say?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 29, 2006, at 17:27:02
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 28, 2006, at 22:22:21
The notion that true biological depression must respond to the currently available antidepressants is nonsense.
On the other hand, response to an antidepressant is not necessarily indicative of a "biological depression", as we know that these drugs can be abused by people who are not depressed but want a boost.
So, I don't really understand how people have come to the conclusion that their depression is bioloical or nonbiological. Doesn't make sense to me.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on November 29, 2006, at 17:32:37
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Phillipa, posted by cecilia on November 29, 2006, at 1:45:06
Cecelia I've heard the highest suicide rate for doctors. I saw one and worked with one who did. Very sad newly married. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on November 29, 2006, at 17:35:10
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » cecilia, posted by linkadge on November 29, 2006, at 17:11:13
Link well they do say that docs pick a specialty that either someone in their life suffered from or themselves. And the one I knew it was a running car in the garage he was drunk. Love Phillipa
Posted by SLS on November 29, 2006, at 18:49:59
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 29, 2006, at 17:27:02
> So, I don't really understand how people have come to the conclusion that their depression is bioloical or nonbiological. Doesn't make sense to me.
Observation and deduction. It is particularly easy to identify the biological nature of depression if you are bipolar and have been an ultra rapid cycler with a regular cycle. This has been my experience. My cycle had a period of 11 days; 8 days of depression followed by 3 days approaching euthymia. This conclusion is further reinforced when drugs produce an antidepressant effect that is an experience dramatically different from that of the depressive state.
Perhaps you are having difficulties understanding things because you are using yourself as a model for all cases of depression. I find it very easy to identify my depression as being 100% biological. Despite this, I continue to pursue avenues of psychological self-improvement - just as anyone without a biological depression might. So, you see, I don't have an emotional attachment to one modality of therapeutics over another. However, I have come to know what's what for me. I am emotionally attached to the most accurate depiction of what I am suffering from so that I have a better chance of getting well.
Perhaps you are confusing unhappiness with clinical major depressive disorder. Perhaps you have a depressive thought style that needs to be addressed through psychotherapy rather than pharmacotherapy. I don't know. If you are not satisfied with drugs, perhaps you should look forward to trying an alternate modality of treatment if you haven't already. Even if you have tried psychotherapy, you might not have been matched up with the right person or the right therapeutic approach.
Since you can't tell what the etiology of your depression is, you might need to leave the door open to psychotherapy.
- Scott
Posted by clint878 on November 29, 2006, at 21:17:44
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » clint878, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 21:38:23
I haven't heard of Lamictal causing cognitive impairment. On the contrary, there are numerous studies showing cognitive improvement, such as http://psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/44/3/204 and or http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16309038.
Besides, the problem began before the Lamictal. If anything, it's improved it somewhat.
Posted by clint878 on November 29, 2006, at 21:24:41
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not./Lamictal's bad, posted by stargazer on November 28, 2006, at 23:58:30
Again, I still think this is a placebo effect. Why is it that I can't find a single study showing that Lamictal causes such problems?
Posted by Declan on November 29, 2006, at 23:18:02
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 29, 2006, at 17:27:02
What is this biological/non biological?
Everythings biological, it's all chemicals, it's all spirit, and so on.
It just depends on what you're looking at.
But I'm not educated really so no doubt I'm confused.
Posted by SLS on November 30, 2006, at 6:07:11
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not./Lamictal's bad » stargazer, posted by clint878 on November 29, 2006, at 21:24:41
> Again, I still think this is a placebo effect. Why is it that I can't find a single study showing that Lamictal causes such problems?
At the very least, you can refer to the manufacturer's package insert to identify the high prevalence of memory impairment with Lamictal. As for the rest, I don't think the medical literature has quite caught up with the real-world outcomes of treatment with higher dosages of Lamictal. Since Lamictal developed a reputation early on to be devoid of cognitive side effects, I doubt it will so quickly develop a new reputation for having them.
For me, cognitive impairment is dosage dependent and appears at dosages higher than 200mg. At 450mg, I had problems navigating while driving. I couldn't remember well enough my way around familiar roads to have an uneventful trip. For me, I am sure that this was no placebo effect, especially when I didn't know in advance that this effect was a possibility. It may be important, however, to take into consideration that cognitive impairment is a prominent feature of my depressive disorder. Take into consideration, though, that other people on PB have reported cognitive side effects with Lamictal.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on November 30, 2006, at 6:16:47
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not./Lamictal's bad, posted by SLS on November 30, 2006, at 6:07:11
Perhaps people with affective disorders are more prone to developing cognitive side effects with Lamictal. Here again, though, one study of people with bipolar disorder indicates otherwise, but the dosages used are generally no higher than 200mg.
Perhaps a new thread can be started focusing on this issue.
- Scott
Posted by stargazer on November 30, 2006, at 7:42:33
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not./Lamictal's bad, posted by SLS on November 30, 2006, at 6:16:47
I think there is a real lag time in getting the SE's into the package insert.
I had increased suicidal thoughts on Zoloft and told my pdoc this. He said there were no reports of this happening with Zoloft, saying it was my depression. He kept trying to increase my dosage to get me beyond these thoughts. I told him that if I didn't stop taking it I would be dead, so I stopped and the suicidal thoughts went away. Coincidental? I don't think so.
Almost all the package inserts today include this as a SE of ALL AD's. Took many years and many deaths, I'm sure, to prove the relationship.
I think for what ever side effects a patient has, there's always the possibility that it is from the medication not the depression. You have to trust your experience and your pdoc has to believe you. If not, then you may have a SE that is fatal or potentially life threatening.
To ignore the SE like playing Russian Roulette.At first glance, that study had a very small number of patients, so the SE profile would also be very small and statistically insignificant. But nevertheless, real.
Many side effects are not reported either and until their numbers reach a statistically significant percentage, they are not included in the package insert. It doesn't mean they don't exist they are just not reported in great enough numbers to be listed as significant.
Stargazer
Posted by FredPotter on November 30, 2006, at 13:51:35
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Declan on November 29, 2006, at 23:18:02
That's right. It's Niels Bohr's principle of complementarity. Light is either a stream of particles or it's a wave, depending on how you observe it. Depression is either biological if viewed in that way or spiritual if viewed after turning 180 deg
This is the end of the thread.
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